Semenya's Gender Test Results Are In

[Principessa]

Corrective surgery? Of what? Are you going to install ovaries?

:lmao: I thought the same thing. :tongue:

No, remove the testes, as long as she has no male parts it does'nt matter if she is lacking female ones.

I am not a doctor or a geneticist, but I don't think it's quite that simple. :no: Plus who knows what chaos removing her testes could cause her physically. I agree she has been through enough.:frown1:

The newest movement of people who are born intersexed is to state they do NOT need corrective surgery. They believe that their "state" is a naturally occurring part of the gender spectrum.

Hmm, when describing this story to my parents, I said that Mother Nature screwed up big time. :redface: It may not be accurate but it is somewhat understandable that way.

They have a movement to NOT have intersexed children operated on and to leave the decision to the child when they come of age. Some choose surgery, a growing number prefer to remain intersexed. Almost all intersexed childern that are surgically altered to be female as the surgery is more succesful than trying to create a penis. Even if the child has internal testes.

I guess that's because it's easier to lop stuff off than add things on. :tongue:

It matters. Not producing either is a medical condition for a reason.

Exactly!

The funny thing is that intersexuality is not a gender. Androgyny can be a gender, intersexual status is a sex, and it is naturally occurring so it is natural, but most intersexual persons are not androgynous in gender, for instance our host here chooses to live as a female, or may be wired as a female since that in and of itself in neurological explorations seems to be hard-coded in humans. One of the primary reasons why "choosing" for the intersexed is dangerous is because of this hard-coding, if an intersexed person identifies as one of the two genders but has the inability to live as that gender mental trauma and declined health are a result. [/QUOTE]

I understand this, however earlier reports state that Semenya always identified as a boy in so far as her attire and playmates were concerned. HEr parents and family for some reason saw her as a girl. Even the headmistress at her school had no idea she was a girl until the 10th grade!

I feel sorry for her, but being intersexed disqualifies her. She has an unfair advantage. Those "real" women train their whole lives for this and then are beaten by someone who is not technically a woman (this is all coming from someone who could give a rat's ass about sports, competitions, etc...so beyond that shit:biggrin1

God forgive me, but I agree with bigbull29. :redface:

I don't treat intersexed people any differently than anyone else. I think the discrimination they've endured over time has been MOST tragic. But in a sport's competition, the masculine traits make things unfair in a competition with real women. She had to have known that she had abnormal masculine characteristics for a woman (common sense).

I'm not sure I know any intersexed people? I would like to think I would treat them as I do anyone else. I agree that as the results stand she cannot compete as a woman. If I have read the various reports correctly, the only female part of her is a vagina that leads to nowhere. She has no cervix, uterus, ovaries or fallopian tubes. She has not suffered a hysterectomy, thus she is not a woman. :frown1:

 

[bigbull29]

That's questionable, because as I said intersexuality isn't necessary; your body will naturally produce what you need which means testosterone levels in female athletes are already higher. She has to be really up there in order to make a difference.
Thing is our intersexed friend is not a male, your hormones coursing through your veins are a secondary characteristic, not a primary characteristic, which means basically you're not a boy because you have more testosterone than estrogen after birth, and vice versa, women with low estrogen do not magically become men.

There's an extreme amount of discrimination present because you're not focusing on the issue and you are pushing that intersexuality inherently disqualifies her without the faintest solidified reasoning. If she was intersexual and produced tons of estrogen and ran with the boys and won there would be no controversy, and for the record quite a few female athletes can keep up with most of their male counterparts; though the bodies are different the peaks are as well and peaks are dependent on more than sex and hormones.

I see your points. I feel sorry for her, too. She cannot help this matter. It's not like she's getting testosterone injections. But I'm afraid in this case, she should be disqualified. God love her, though, as she did nothing wrong. But it makes all the other women's hard work throughout the years as being in vain when they can't even compete fairly as women. It's a complex situation, but I think there is only one right answer.

She is not technically intersexed. But that abnormal amount of male hormone puts her in a different league, competition-wise. It's a shame there aren't enough women with this condition who couldn't compete with her (I shouldn't have said that, either, as I wouldn't wish this conditon on anyone).

 

[joyboytoy79]

Ok, but still she can't compete with other women when have unnatural amounts of testosterone "running" their her veins. That puts her in a league of her own. Compete with the boys!

No, I don't treat intersexed people differently, but can I compete with women as a male? No. There is no discrimination here whatsoever.

The only way her testosterone levels would be "unnatural" would be if she was taking testosterone injections. Since her alleged (the report has not yet been released) testes are in her body by completely natural means, her testosterone levels are in no way, shape, or form "unnatural." Furthermore, I don't see how a naturally occurring phenomenon can possibly be construed as an "unfair advantage." That's like saying a woman with longer legs has an unfair advantage over one with shorter legs. Maybe she has an advantage, but how on earth is it "unfair"?!?! It's not like she TRIED to have testes!!!!

Just because something falls outside the pre-conceived ideals of "normal" doesn't mean that it's wrong, evil, or "unfair." It just means that it's different from what you're used to, and that makes you uncomfortable.

 

[minimag]

Semen? Ya! 'nuff said.

 

[Symphonic]

I purposefully illustrated sex and gender as two different things in order to provide that gender holds no purpose, he, she, it, thing are all appropriate insofar as I'm concerned because it's the physical body that will be put through the test. Either way I pose these questions as a means to decipher whether or not this person is or is not worthy of the competition:

1. Was there a huge margin win? Was it clearly unfair, shown that the physical prowess of this person was without reproach in regards to the competition?

2. Was there less training, less nutrition, less requirements for this person to achieve this physical state? Was it more about simply having testosterone? Are "legs" really to blame for this incident, was the win a fluke?

3. Why didn't the AIFF or whatever the association is catch this prior to her running? How can they punish a pre-existing condition they didn't test for? That's illegal in most cases, by which if you are employed you can't be directly fired for pre-existing conditions, disabilities, or related problems if they don't prevent you from your work.

Huge ethical questions that can be brought to light by noting basically the results of the race and the test, because her competition wasn't just a bunch of weak women or something, and as we can see clearly by the story as well as the situation you are more than your genitals. Having a uterus does not make you female ( you can be born without one ) and same with all other sex organs, as a matter of fact it's a chromosomal matter altogether, being born with opposing sex traits is also rare, but not impossible.

There's just so much to take into account in regards to ethics and the situation at hand; if they do decide that they cannot allow this person to compete again, fine, but the defamation of character for no reason due to their failure to competently assert the rules and regulations is without question improper.

I see your points. I feel sorry for her, too. She cannot help this matter. It's not like she's getting testosterone injections. But I'm afraid in this case, she should be disqualified. God love her, though, as she did nothing wrong. But it makes all the other women's hard work throughout the years as being in vain when they can't even compete fairly as women. It's a complex situation, but I think there is only one right answer.

She is not technically intersexed. But that abnormal amount of male hormone puts her in a different league, competition-wise. It's a shame there aren't enough women with this condition who couldn't compete with her (I shouldn't have said that, either, as I wouldn't wish this conditon on anyone).

How is she "technically not intersexed"? I'm interested in that.

Also, in this "complex situation" how does having testosterone instantly equate victory? What's being missed is a whole plethora of information because disqualifying her on the grounds that "she has more testosterone" when chances are that's going to be the case across the board when they already let her race seems way too unethical and more or less their fault and not hers, she didn't conceal this from anyone so I'm not seeing how this works.

Then again I'm somewhat against gender separation based sporting since "girls can play football too".

Again:

[ She is a woman with more testosterone therefore she is evil, she has cheated, she should be disgraced.

Yet, he is a man with more estrogen, he overcame his lack of testosterone, he is a hero, he has beat the odds, he should be praised. ]

Something is wrong here. Period.

*Leaves it alone*

 

[Mastur]

LOL! It's-a-man-ja...

All I can say, being a fellow South African, is that one must have balls to live (read: survive) in this God-forsaken country...

 

[Principessa]

The only way her testosterone levels would be "unnatural" would be if she was taking testosterone injections. Since her alleged (the report has not yet been released) testes are in her body by completely natural means, her testosterone levels are in no way, shape, or form "unnatural."

Hahaha nice try but I ain't buying it and neither are her competitors.

Furthermore, I don't see how a naturally occurring phenomenon can possibly be construed as an "unfair advantage." That's like saying a woman with longer legs has an unfair advantage over one with shorter legs. Maybe she has an advantage, but how on earth is it "unfair"?!?! It's not like she TRIED to have testes!!!!

Leg length is different and you know it. Men have been proven through time, evolution, and testing to be physically stronger and faster than women. This woman is actually physically, hormonally, and genetically a man, therefore she can't compete with women. Had her parents had her tested at an early age they could have raised her as a boy and this wouldn't be a problem.

Just because something falls outside the pre-conceived ideals of "normal" doesn't mean that it's wrong, evil, or "unfair." It just means that it's different from what you're used to, and that makes you uncomfortable.

Nice try but it's not like we are talking about freckles. If she wants to continue living as a womanm that's fine but she can't compete as one.

I purposefully illustrated sex and gender as two different things in order to provide that gender holds no purpose, he, she, it, thing are all appropriate insofar as I'm concerned because it's the physical body that will be put through the test. Either way I pose these questions as a means to decipher whether or not this person is or is not worthy of the competition:

1. Was there a huge margin win? Was it clearly unfair, shown that the physical prowess of this person was without reproach in regards to the competition?

2. Was there less training, less nutrition, less requirements for this person to achieve this physical state? Was it more about simply having testosterone? Are "legs" really to blame for this incident, was the win a fluke?

Having testosterone most likely allowed her to need less training, have different nutritional needs, and led to less and different training to achieve this physical state.

3. Why didn't the AIFF or whatever the association is catch this prior to her running? How can they punish a pre-existing condition they didn't test for? That's illegal in most cases, by which if you are employed you can't be directly fired for pre-existing conditions, disabilities, or related problems if they don't prevent you from your work.

I wondered the same thing! It's not like she just started looking like a dude. She has been male in appearance her whole life.
Huge ethical questions that can be brought to light by noting basically the results of the race and the test, because her competition wasn't just a bunch of weak women or something, and as we can see clearly by the story as well as the situation you are more than your genitals. Having a uterus does not make you female ( you can be born without one ) and same with all other sex organs, as a matter of fact it's a chromosomal matter altogether, being born with opposing sex traits is also rare, but not impossible.

There's just so much to take into account in regards to ethics and the situation at hand; if they do decide that they cannot allow this person to compete again, fine, but the defamation of character for no reason due to their failure to competently assert the rules and regulations is without question improper.

This may lead to genetic/sexual testing prior to competition. How was her character defamed? They didn't accuse her of murder or theft.

 

[_Alexxx_]

Nice, knowing that she's not a woman is a women's issue

 

[Wish-4-8]

Ok, but still she can't compete with other women when have unnatural amounts of testosterone "running" their her veins. That puts her in a league of her own. Compete with the boys!

No, I don't treat intersexed people differently, but can I compete with women as a male? No. There is no discrimination here whatsoever.

I am really surprised that you would say all this. You certainly didnt think this way when a person born male won prom queen at a high school. Maybe the two cases are different. Help me understand.

Dont get me wrong, I agree with your posts in this thread. And the whole thing sucks for her because now she cant run for either.

So, was it a good idea to let her run in the first place? And whos fault is that?

 

[fxc1100]

This has nothing to do with bigotry, imo.
With very rare exceptions, we have a binary gender system in human life.
And sports are operated according to it.
She has ... what? four times the testosterone that women usually produce?
That just doesn't allow a level playing field

Where did you get this number from? So far I have read that the results haven't been released. Is this a number you just came up with or you found this in a credible article? and if so link please.

And lastly for the people saying it's an unfair advantage....

Semenya's status no clearer despite media leak - Yahoo! News

"There are many, many other reasons why a woman looks male," Ljungqvist said. "Probably the most common has nothing to do with intersex: production of steroids from the adrenal gland. Most of the women you see who look like men are not intersexed. Some men have a very womanlike body shape."
Another key issue is whether an intersexed person can make use of the natural male hormones they may be producing.
"High levels of testosterone is not a relevant parameter. It's whether they can make use of that testosterone," Ljungqvist said. "Most of them are insensitive to the testosterone because they do not have the receptors to use it."
Anne Fausto-Sterling, a professor of biology and women's studies at Brown University, said making use of testosterone to gain a competitive advantage depends on the level of intersexuality.
"Some give no advantage," Fausto-Sterling said. "You really have to know the specifics, and every individual is different."

 

[joyboytoy79]

Hahaha nice try but I ain't buying it and neither are her competitors.
Leg length is different and you know it. Men have been proven through time, evolution, and testing to be physically stronger and faster than women. This woman is actually physically, hormonally, and genetically a man, therefore she can't compete with women. Had her parents had her tested at an early age they could have raised her as a boy and this wouldn't be a problem.

Nice try but it's not like we are talking about freckles. If she wants to continue living as a womanm that's fine but she can't compete as one.


This may lead to genetic/sexual testing prior to competition. How was her character defamed? They didn't accuse her of murder or theft.

How many parents do you know of who genetically test their children to determine sex? If it has a vagina, it's a girl.

And no, we're not talking about freckles, because freckles aren't even close to being outside the "norm." We're talking about a girl with masculine attributes, which is just unnatural and horrible and bad because women are supposed to be curvy and pretty - right?

What about boys who are curvy and pretty? Are they unnatural and wrong? Be careful how you answer, cuz i'm 3 words away from losing any and all respect for you.

You're treating this woman as if she did something wrong. Even BEFORE you have all the information! This is all based off of a speculative news story - an unconfirmed "leak." For all we know, this is someone's attempt to destroy this woman's career, just because she's a better athlete. The fact that she has "masculine" features (which is, actually, subjective - humans really come in all shapes and sizes, regardless of sex) only serves to play into some peoples very bigoted fears of those who don't fit their ideal.

This woman is a gifted athlete, and to take that gift away from her because of an accident of birth is not only wrong, it's criminal. It's criminal, and it's damn anti-christian! To deny a woman her god-given gifts because of her god-given imperfections. How very presumptuous!

The whole thing just makes me sick. I mean, really sick. How cruel can you be toward a fellow human being, really? Grow a conscience.

 

[Principessa]

Nice, knowing that she's not a woman is a women's issue

I almost posted this in etc., but then no men would have responded and I was curious as to their opinions. I notice few women have responded though . . .interesting.

 

[Principessa]

How many parents do you know of who genetically test their children to determine sex? If it has a vagina, it's a girl.

True, but at some point you have to notice that your child is...different. Her vagina is a highway to nowhere!

And no, we're not talking about freckles, because freckles aren't even close to being outside the "norm." We're talking about a girl with masculine attributes, which is just unnatural and horrible and bad because women are supposed to be curvy and pretty - right?

You're right, freckles were a bad analogy. :frown1: I never said women had to be curvy and pretty! Heck, I ran track in high school. I was one of the prettiest, leggiest, and most thin girl on the team. That's not bragging, it's more like being the best surfer in Kansas. :redface::tongue: Incidentally, the girls who were the fastest were also the most masculine in musculature if not visage. All of the girls who competed in our field events were big ol' dykes. Everyone knew it and accepted them. They were not ridiculed or chastised.

What about boys who are curvy and pretty? Are they unnatural and wrong? Be careful how you answer, cuz i'm 3 words away from losing any and all respect for you.

I wasn't aware you had any respect for me. Lately it seems most people do not. For all I know you could be a member of the 'Ban NJQT466, Forever Club.' As for curvy, pretty boys being wrong. I don't think I said that. If I did, I was wrong. I will say they are as much an anomaly as she is though.

You're treating this woman as if she did something wrong. Even BEFORE you have all the information! This is all based off of a speculative news story - an unconfirmed "leak." For all we know, this is someone's attempt to destroy this woman's career, just because she's a better athlete. The fact that she has "masculine" features (which is, actually, subjective - humans really come in all shapes and sizes, regardless of sex) only serves to play into some peoples very bigoted fears of those who don't fit their ideal.

Hmm, I hardly think I'm being bigoted. Mine is just one opinion. Do you really want there to be competitions for males, females, and other? I don't think so. :no:

FWIW: Masculinity is NOT subjective; nor is femininity. It's kind of like pornography, we all know it, when we see it. :wink:

This woman is a gifted athlete, and to take that gift away from her because of an accident of birth is not only wrong, it's criminal. It's criminal, and it's damn anti-christian! To deny a woman her god-given gifts because of her god-given imperfections. How very presumptuous!

Oh Please! This is messy enough without bringing God into it.

The whole thing just makes me sick. I mean, really sick. How cruel can you be toward a fellow human being, really? Grow a conscience.

I suggest you take your righteous outrage up with the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) as they are the ones who started this debacle.

 

[StraightDave]

Is there anyway I can have my testes moved internally? Is there some surgical procedure you can have done? That would be fucking awesome to not have to worry about being kicked in the nads ever. Then again, getting punched in the stomach would prob hurt a helluva lot more.

I wonder if when this chick gets a stomach ache, it feels like she got kicked in the balls. This whole intersexed/internal testes thing is very interesting.

I say let her race though. If she was born without a dick or visible testicles, she's a she and she should race. It's hogwash she was subjected to testing in the first place.

 

[dolfette]

True, but at some point you have to notice that your child is...different. Her vagina is a highway to nowhere!

how?

athletes often have no periods and flat chests. it's the low body fat.
these people are from a rural village in africa...just assuming they'd have ready access to doctors & scans is daft. and the culture isn't one where people openly talk about women's bodily functions.
shit, even in the west it's sometimes not picked up until her age...the literature says periods can start as late as 19.
if your child looks normal and is healthy then you assume they're normal.

you can't judge these people like they live in urban america.

 

[dolfette]

I say let her race though. If she was born without a dick or visible testicles, she's a she and she should race. It's hogwash she was subjected to testing in the first place.

if she's physically male in all but genitals that that wouldn't be fair.
men & women race separately for a reason.

 

[Principessa]

Is there anyway I can have my testes moved internally? Is there some surgical procedure you can have done? That would be fucking awesome to not have to worry about being kicked in the nads ever. Then again, getting punched in the stomach would prob hurt a helluva lot more.

Just how often are you kicked in the nads?

I wonder if when this chick gets a stomach ache, it feels like she got kicked in the balls. This whole intersexed/internal testes thing is very interesting.

I say let her race though. If she was born without a dick or visible testicles, she's a she and she should race. It's hogwash she was subjected to testing in the first place.[/QUOTE] Okay . . . but she was also allegedly born without ovaries, fallopian tubes, or a uterus which means she's not a girl. She's just stuck in some God awful intersexed limbo. :frown1:

how?

athletes often have no periods and flat chests. it's the low body fat.

Good point I did think of that. Along with the fact most women even in the US don't see a gynecologist until they are in their 20's and then only grudgingly.:redface:

these people are from a rural village in africa...just assuming they'd have ready access to doctors & scans is daft. and the culture isn't one where people openly talk about women's bodily functions. shit, even in the west it's sometimes not picked up until her age...the literature says periods can start as late as 19.

if your child looks normal and is healthy then you assume they're normal.

Nineteen?! I never heard of it starting that late before?! If my daughter didn't have her period by 15, I would be concerned and take her to the doctor.

I gotta find the article. When this all started there was an interview with her parents and the headmistress of her school. The headmistress said she had no idea Caster Semenya was a girl until the 10th grade. They wear uniforms to school, which means she had opted to wear the boys uniform. Her mother said that Caster was a loner, had few friends, and started running because the other village children often picked on her. :frown1:

you can't judge these people like they live in urban america.

You are correct, but sometimes parents don't want to see anything different or wrong with their children. My mom was an astute and talented teacher. Yet I was diagnosed as being dyscalculaic and dyslexic as a freshman in college. I was 18. The signs had been there all along. She just couldn't bare the thought of having a child with a special need, a child who was different.

 

[Drifterwood]

I would be perfectly willing to believe that noone knew that she had internal testes, and therefore did not cheat. I would let her keep her medal, but would not let her compete in the future unless her maleness was neutralised or brought down to what was considered an appropriate level for people competing in the women's events.

 

[Principessa]

I would be perfectly willing to believe that noone knew that she had internal testes, and therefore did not cheat. I would let her keep her medal, but would not let her compete in the future unless her maleness was neutralised or brought down to what was considered an appropriate level for people competing in the women's events.[/QUOTE]

I agree. I alluded to that in an earlier post when I asked what was considered a normal amount of testosterone for a female.

 

[Skull Mason]

I would drug test her, regardless of gender.