Semenya's Gender Test Results Are In

[HazelGod]

in semenya's case, as well as all people like her, hermaphrodite considered a derogatory term.

That's just stupid.

 

[Industrialsize]

The term hermaphrodite was the term that has been usually used. People with this condition now prefer the term intersexed.
From Wiki:
Historically, the term hermaphrodite has also been used to describe ambiguous genitalia and gonadal mosaicism in individuals of gonochoristic species, especially human beings. The term comes from the name of the minor Greek god Hermaphroditus, son of Hermes and Aphrodite. Recently, intersex has been used and preferred by many such individuals, encouraging medical professionals to use the term.

 

[jason_els]

IAAF spokesman Davies told the Associated Press on Friday that, whatever the test reveals, Semenya would probably keep her world championship medal. "Our legal advice is that if she proves to have an advantage because of the male hormones, then it will be extremely difficult to strip the medal off her, since she has not cheated," he said. "She was naturally made that way, and she was entered in Berlin by her team and accepted by the IAAF." -Yahoo! News

Talk about a backhanded admission! It's all about if they can legally strip Semenya of her medals first and about her gender second. Revolting.

When asked by South African magazine You about the gender issue, she [Semenya] reportedly said: "I see it all as a joke, it doesn't upset me. God made me the way I am and I accept myself. I am who I am and I'm proud of myself. I don't want to talk about the tests - I'm not even thinking about them." -ibid.

I hope she can maintain that attitude. Apparently she didn't know that she was intersexed. Imagine reading in a news report that you're not the sex you think you are. This is immensely humiliating. The IAAF needs to apologize for the leak and how this whole thing has been handled.

 

[Skull Mason]

Why? She is NOT a drug addict! She is not using steroids. Google Caster Semenya, then weigh in.

sure, just like Marion Jones wasn't...

 

[Symphonic]

This may lead to genetic/sexual testing prior to competition. How was her character defamed? They didn't accuse her of murder or theft.

Sometimes the simplicity of the common folk is unnerving. :/

 

[Principessa]

the thing that pisses me off about all the articles i read on her is how the media labels her as a hermaphrodite. why can't people just fucking say intersexed?!!!!!

Uh, cause she actually is a hermaphrodite. :duh:

before you all get your panties in a twist, yes i studied my biology and i know hermaphrodite is the term used in the world of science and medicine to label an organism that has two sexes; however, the term is used to label species and animals, not humans. in semenya's case, as well as all people like her, hermaphrodite considered a derogatory term.

Beep. Wrong answer. :tdown: It has been the term used for humans for centuries. While I have heard of animals having both sexes or of males (reptiles usually) becoming pregnant and females becoming pregnant w/o the aide of sperm, I have actually never heard an animal being labeled hermaphrodite.

regardless that she has both sexes, she is still and always will be a person just like the rest of us! and so what if she chose to identify her gender as female? big fucking deal. that shouldn't mean she deserves to go through all this stupid testing bullshit and be treated unfairly. maybe if the IAAF added a third category in for people of both genders, all this crap wouldn't be causing a big fuss.[/QUOTE] LOL I beg to differ. If a third category were to be created what would it be called? I think it would create protests & pandemonium. I'm not trying to exclude people like Caster Semenya, but come on.

The term hermaphrodite was the term that has been usually used. People with this condition now prefer the term intersexed.
From Wiki: Historically, the term hermaphrodite has also been used to describe ambiguous genitalia and gonadal mosaicism in individuals of gonochoristic species, especially human beings. Recently, intersex has been used and preferred by many such individuals, encouraging medical professionals to use the term.[/QUOTE] If they want intersexed to catch on they are gonna need to do PSA's or something.

sure, just like Marion Jones wasn't...

You're usually more intelligent than that Skully. You really, really need to check the facts. They may be confusing for you; but she is no Marian Jones.

 

[dolfette]

I have actually never heard an animal being labeled hermaphrodite.

doll, the word hermaphrodite is the scientific term used to describe animals that are both male and female and usually cross fertilise each other.
it's the term that's always been used for animals.

google...say...snails. they'll be described as hermaphrodite.

 

[dolfette]

cambridge dictionary.


Definition
hermaphrodite noun
a plant, animal or person with both male and female sex organs

 

[Principessa]

cambridge dictionary.


Definition
hermaphrodite noun
a plant, animal or person with both male and female sex organs

Oh, you're using one of those fancy Brit dictionarys. :tongue:

 

[Gillette]

This woman is a gifted athlete, and to take that gift away from her because of an accident of birth is not only wrong, it's criminal. It's criminal, and it's damn anti-christian! To deny a woman her god-given gifts because of her god-given imperfections. How very presumptuous!

Invoking god is presumptuous.

I'll agree with the gifted athlete part but woman or man is still up in the air. Caster has identified as female so I'll refer to her as she but for the purpose of sports competition I'm not satisfied with self identification of gender. A transexual male may feel every ounce a woman and choose to live his life as a woman and I'll respect that and refer to him by his gender of choice, however, it would be grossly unfair to expect female athletes to accept him in their gender category because he is physically developed as a male.

Another question might be does Caster truly feel like a woman? If reports of her childhood are true then left to her own devices without her mother's raising her as a girl she might well have chosen a male identity for herself. Had she been raised in a culture with better awareness and acceptance she could have chosen a male identity and this spectacle would have been avoided. Many intersexed children (even some boys with a micropenis) are raised as girls yet grow up to identify and live as men. How do we know this isn't a similar case? Given the public microscope under which she's been thrust would she ever be able to say so without horrific backlash?

what about Ms. Semenya's rights?

options: surgery, chemical castration.... oh banishment... that's real fucking fair.

When did having an unfair advantage over your competitors become a right?

she's didn't just wake up one morning, throw on a pair of running shoes and win the damn Olympics... she busted her ass and trained like crazy, like everyone else there.

The men bust their ass in training as well, that doesn't give them leave to compete against women.

if her medals are taken away, if she is not allowed to compete the only message being sent is that intersexed athletes are not welcome at the Olympic Games.

Worth a read.
http://www.iaaf.org/mm/Document/imported/36983.pdf
This has been taken into consideration already.

until some Committee demands that all athletes have sex determination testing done, this is fucking witch hunt.

They used to.
Intersex and the Olympic Games - Èíòåðñåêñóàëû - Ïðîáëåìû èäåíòèôèêàöèè ïîëà íà Îëèìïèéñêèõ Èãðàõ

the general acceptance of a second class status for intersex/gender variant people is the only reason this is even an issue.

Nobody has suggested second class status, in fact with this case the opposite is true. Not that Caster is less than a woman physically, but more.


Testosterone accelerates the growth of muscle (strength), bone (impact resistance) and red blood cells (oxygen delivery) it also reduces muscle recovery time (reduced fatigue). There is a division between males and females in sports competition for precisely this reason. If it turns out that Caster does have testicles and is producing male levels of testosterone, thus having the physical performance of a man, then she has the same advantage over women that a man would have. Why should the presence of an incomplete exterior sex trait justify her competing unfairly against women who lack the enhanced testosterone production?

Short version.
Life isn't always fair to everyone and there are divisions everywhere, particularly in sport.

There are gender divisions, there are age divisions and there are weight class divisions all designed to create a more level playing field. To keep the competition more sporting.

If it turns out that Caster has male testosterone levels and she fights to continue competing in the womens' division knowing that she has this unfair advantage then she will be acting in an unsportsmanlike manner and should be disqualified on that basis alone.

wait, maybe she can compete in the Special Olympics next year.

Or maybe she can compete as a man.

I'm sorry, ML, but I don't agree with you on this one at all.

The most unfortunate thing in all of this is that it became public subjecting her to such scrutiny and censure.

 

[Symphonic]

Testosterone accelerates the growth of muscle (strength), bone (impact resistance) and red blood cells (oxygen delivery) it also reduces muscle recovery time (reduced fatigue). There is a division between males and females in sports competition for precisely this reason. If it turns out that Caster does have testicles and is producing male levels of testosterone, thus having the physical performance of a man, then she has the same advantage over women that a man would have. Why should the presence of an incomplete exterior sex trait justify her competing unfairly against women who lack the enhanced testosterone production?

To save the discussion prove that testosterone is the main / only division between male and female athletes.

 

[dolfette]

it's like she wouldn't be allowed to compete in the paralympics, because having all her limbs would give her an unfair advantage.

it may not be fair for her to compete against women, because having a male body {excluding danglies} may give her an unfair advantage.

women race separately from men because we have a slight disadvantage.

the situation is cruel and unfair for her on a personal level, but it could be unfair to the other competitors to allow her to race.

and asking her to compete with the men seems insulting, because she's a woman.

sometimes there's just no easy answer.

i want to see more of the sciency stuff!

 

[Northland]

If nothing else, this thread shows the incredible amount of ignorance, stupidity and prejudice on the part of so many members. (and there likely will be little else because of the close-mindedness of many individuals both away from and on this board)

 

[joyboytoy79]

Testosterone accelerates the growth of muscle (strength), bone (impact resistance) and red blood cells (oxygen delivery) it also reduces muscle recovery time (reduced fatigue). There is a division between males and females in sports competition for precisely this reason. If it turns out that Caster does have testicles and is producing male levels of testosterone, thus having the physical performance of a man, then she has the same advantage over women that a man would have. Why should the presence of an incomplete exterior sex trait justify her competing unfairly against women who lack the enhanced testosterone production?

Short version.
Life isn't always fair to everyone and there are divisions everywhere, particularly in sport.

There are gender divisions, there are age divisions and there are weight class divisions all designed to create a more level playing field. To keep the competition more sporting.

If it turns out that Caster has male testosterone levels and she fights to continue competing in the womens' division knowing that she has this unfair advantage then she will be acting in an unsportsmanlike manner and should be disqualified on that basis alone.

The articles written speculate that Semenya has 3 times the levels of testosterone of the average woman. Interestingly, the average man has 40 to 60 (!!!!) times the testosterone of the average woman. That would hardly put Somenya in the male range of production. Even more interestingly, ovaries produce testosterone, and they don't all do it at the same rate. In fact, it is perfectly normal for some women to produce as much testosterone as some men do. The ranges of production between men and women overlap significantly.

Testosterone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If testosterone levels are your real concern, and are the real reason why there is a division between men and women in this particular sport, then I suggest that all of the women who are currently competing should have their testosterone levels tested. They will all likely fall outside of the "normal" female range, as testosterone production increases with an increase of physical exertion. For that matter, the male athletes should be tested too, for wouldn't it be an "unfair advantage" for a male who produces unusually high levels of the hormone to be competing against men who do not produce the same unusually high levels?

The argument that she has an "unfair advantage" can only be true if we know the exact advantage of those she is competing against. We don't. The fact that there is no push to test every single one of the women competing (and the men also) only suggests to me that this is a witch-hunt. And it's mind-boggling to me that other people out there haven't taken the time to investigate the ACTUAL ramifications of what's being reported, instead of jumping to prejudiced conclusions based in stereotypes and not based in science.

 

[Gillette]

To save the discussion prove that testosterone is the main / only division between male and female athletes.

Prove it?
Did you want me to do an independent scientific study with a statistically valid sample right here and now? Because I'm pretty sure everyone here has access to google.

 

[Skull Mason]

You're usually more intelligent than that Skully. You really, really need to check the facts. They may be confusing for you; but she is no Marian Jones.

What facts do I need to check? The fact that her track coach is Ekkhart Arbeit, who was in involved in the major doping scandals with the East German athletes during the 70s and 80s. In fact, one female athlete, Heidi Krieger, accused him of giving her so many steroids she had to undergo a sex change operation to live her life as a man.

How about the fact that over the course of one year her time in the 800 meter race improved by over 8 seconds? Elevated testosterone levels? The dirtiest sport known to (wo)man? Did she just become a hermaphrodite in one year? If I'm not confused like you accuse me to be, I believe you are born a hermaphrodite; an 8 second improvement in one year is from something else. Classic red flags of doping abuse, a la Marion Jones, a la the vast majority of the sport.

Please tell me what facts I need to check.

 

[Gillette]

The articles written speculate that Semenya has 3 times the levels of testosterone of the average woman. Interestingly, the average man has 40 to 60 (!!!!) times the testosterone of the average woman. That would hardly put Somenya in the male range of production. Even more interestingly, ovaries produce testosterone, and they don't all do it at the same rate. In fact, it is perfectly normal for some women to produce as much testosterone as some men do. The ranges of production between men and women overlap significantly.

If the average male has 40-60 times the testosterone levels of a woman then "perfectly normal" is hardly an accurate statement for the hormone levels of a woman producing those equal to a man's levels. In fact abnormally high testosterone levels in females can be an indication of a serious ovarian condition, like cancer.

Which is your argument with these figures anyway? 3 times the levels isn't so different because the difference is 40-60 times yet somehow an overlap of levels is "normal"? WTF? Which is it? A vast difference or an overlap?

Different labs have varying ranges of what they consider normal with values ranging from the low 200s to over 1200 ng./dl. considered normal for men and from 15 to 70 ng./dl. considered normal for women.

That's a pretty generous range for each. Caster is 18 so the ranges are
200–970 ng/dL (6.94–33.66 nmol/L) for males and 10–70 ng/dL (0.35–2.43 nmol/L) for females of that age according to Web_MD.

If testosterone levels are your real concern, and are the real reason why there is a division between men and women in this particular sport, then I suggest that all of the women who are currently competing should have their testosterone levels tested. They will all likely fall outside of the "normal" female range, as testosterone production increases with an increase of physical exertion.

I'm not assuming that the IAAF is stupid so I'd expect that the levels would be compared with that of other female athletes.

For that matter, the male athletes should be tested too, for wouldn't it be an "unfair advantage" for a male who produces unusually high levels of the hormone to be competing against men who do not produce the same unusually high levels?

If his level is higher than the 6:1 ratio that international rules allow, yes.

The I.A.A.F considers a testosterone-epitestosterone ratio of 1:1 normal for men and women, and the 6:1 ratio was adopted to account for natural variations. Again, pretty generous range.

The argument that she has an "unfair advantage" can only be true if we know the exact advantage of those she is competing against. We don't. The fact that there is no push to test every single one of the women competing (and the men also) only suggests to me that this is a witch-hunt. And it's mind-boggling to me that other people out there haven't taken the time to investigate the ACTUAL ramifications of what's being reported, instead of jumping to prejudiced conclusions based in stereotypes and not based in science.

Getting sick of the witch hunt accusations flying around. The IAAF did for a period have compulsory testing but abandoned it reserving the right to test when the question was raised. The police don't give breathalysers to every driver, it isn't feasible, only the ones who appear to be under the influence are tested. That doesn't make it a witch hunt, it's just basic practicality. The witch hunt accusation also implies a desire for Caster to be proven inter-sexed and disqualified. I doubt the IAAF has any such desire and I know for myself this isn't true. I'd be just as happy if the reports released so far are false news bites (which is why I'll wait for the official IAAF report, thank you), that she be proven just as female as her competitors and she be allowed to continue competing as before. I imagine the IAAF hopes for the same as it would relieve them of the decisions regarding medals, who holds the actual record time, etc.

 

[modest123]

The whole concept of sports is based on advantages. If a woman feels she can compete against men, then let her. If a white feels he can compete against a black, then let him. If a child seems like he can compete against adults, let him. If a retarded person appears able to compete against normal people, then let him. In the end, it's all about letting the best man (or whatever) win. Once we start categorizing ourselves, then we might as well categorize ourselves to the point where we're all perfectly equal (within our category) - but what fun is that?

 

[joyboytoy79]

If the average male has 40-60 times the testosterone levels of a woman then "perfectly normal" is hardly an accurate statement for the hormone levels of a woman producing those equal to a man's levels. In fact abnormally high testosterone levels in females can be an indication of a serious ovarian condition, like cancer.

Which is your argument with these figures anyway? 3 times the levels isn't so different because the difference is 40-60 times yet somehow an overlap of levels is "normal"? WTF? Which is it? A vast difference or an overlap?



That's a pretty generous range for each. Caster is 18 so the ranges are
200–970 ng/dL (6.94–33.66 nmol/L) for males and 10–70 ng/dL (0.35–2.43 nmol/L) for females of that age according to Web_MD.

I'm not assuming that the IAAF is stupid so I'd expect that the levels would be compared with that of other female athletes. If his level is higher than the 6:1 ratio that international rules allow, yes.

The I.A.A.F considers a testosterone-epitestosterone ratio of 1:1 normal for men and women, and the 6:1 ratio was adopted to account for natural variations. Again, pretty generous range.

Getting sick of the witch hunt accusations flying around. The IAAF did for a period have compulsory testing but abandoned it reserving the right to test when the question was raised. The police don't give breathalysers to every driver, it isn't feasible, only the ones who appear to be under the influence are tested. That doesn't make it a witch hunt, it's just basic practicality. The witch hunt accusation also implies a desire for Caster to be proven inter-sexed and disqualified. I doubt the IAAF has any such desire and I know for myself this isn't true. I'd be just as happy if the reports released so far are false news bites (which is why I'll wait for the official IAAF report, thank you), that she be proven just as female as her competitors and she be allowed to continue competing as before. I imagine the IAAF hopes for the same as it would relieve them of the decisions regarding medals, who holds the actual record time, etc.

I think you and i can agree that "average" and "normal" have different meanings. Heck, "average" has three different meanings! Anyway, i don't see how it's so confusing that the average man has 40 to 60 times the testosterone production of the average woman, and yet the normal RANGES of male and female production overlap. And no, a woman producing testosterone in the lower end of the male range does not have to have ovarian cancer. She could simply be an athlete. Or, she could be genetically prone to producing more testosterone.

As for the witch-hunt accusations... why was it that Somenya was a perfectly acceptable woman before, and now suddenly she has to have testing? What behaviour was she exhibiting that suggested she was male? If we're going to go with your brethalizer analogy, how was she exhibiting drunkeness? Please explain to me what are the warning signs we need to look out for? Or is it simmply suspicious enough if a woman is "masculine" looking? Cuz, if that's the case, i know MANY lesbians that would have to have gender testing in order to run in the Olympics, and that doesn't sound right.

I too, would like to see the IAAF report. I think this is all speculatory until we know all the facts. At the same time, i think the "guidelines" as set up by the IAAF are arbitrary, and do not allow for natural variation in the human population - just like the commonly accepted meanings of the words "male" and "female" do not allow for natural variation in the human population.

The following are some wiki articles about variation in the human population with regaurds to sex:

Klinefelter's syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Androgen insensitivity syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Principessa]

What facts do I need to check? The fact that her track coach is Ekkhart Arbeit, who was in involved in the major doping scandals with the East German athletes during the 70s and 80s. In fact, one female athlete, Heidi Krieger, accused him of giving her so many steroids she had to undergo a sex change operation to live her life as a man.

How about the fact that over the course of one year her time in the 800 meter race improved by over 8 seconds? Elevated testosterone levels? The dirtiest sport known to (wo)man? Did she just become a hermaphrodite in one year? If I'm not confused like you accuse me to be, I believe you are born a hermaphrodite; an 8 second improvement in one year is from something else. Classic red flags of doping abuse, a la Marion Jones, a la the vast majority of the sport. Please tell me what facts I need to check.[/QUOTE] She has testes. She was born with testes which produce mass quantities of testosterone. She was also born without ovaries, fallopian tubes, or a uterus. While her testosterone levels are much higher than the aveage female they are actually lower than teh average male. Also, it's not like she just took on male characteristics. She has been that way since long before Ekkhart Arbeit entered her life.