Separation between Religion and Schools

[fortiesfun]

It depends very much what the hymnal was being used to teach, but it is very common in music theory classes to use traditional hymns to teach simple harmonizing, for example. The text is not the point, but the musical fabric of the piece is. Religious, specifically Christian, music plays a very big role in western music and it is hard to study traditional music theory without getting into some of those music pieces sometimes. That said, it is also extremely common practice now to offer the specific disclaimer that I just did as part of the instruction. We are not studying the hymn text, we are studying the four-part harmony. The text is not instructional.

Josh, I am sympathetic, as I certainly underwent a lot of coercive religious education along the way, but be sure why you are making your stand. (These days in my classroom I face many more students who say that they cannot and will not read the course literature because it doesn't reflect their religious beliefs. I am forced on many occasions to tell students that they must read the assigned literature even if they don't like the "dirty words." I am deeply respectful of Jeff Black's frequently insightful posts, but this time I disagree that student's shouldn't have to do things just because they disagree with them, because I usually face it in terms of fundamentalism. The university backs me, but it is thin line. You don't have to subscribe to anyone else's belief system, but be sure first that is what you are being asked to do.)

Doc

 

[SomeGuyOverThere]

IMHO religion and schools should be kept miles apart - no new schools within 5 miles of a church.

Bringing a child up "Christian" or within any other relgion without letting them see other cultures or religions as possiblities, amounts to nothing short of brainwashing.

I think you are right to stand up for what you believe in, when I lived in the States I refused to say the Pledge of Allegience and I received a lot of flak for it, but calmly pointed out that I am not American and refuse to pledge allegence to the flag of a forgein country.

 

[jeff black]

I am deeply respectful of Jeff Black's frequently insightful posts, but this time I disagree that student's shouldn't have to do things just because they disagree with them, because I usually face it in terms of fundamentalism. The university backs me, but it is thin line. You don't have to subscribe to anyone else's belief system, but be sure first that is what you are being asked to do.)

Doc

Hey Doc,

In reference to your comment. I probably should have stated myself more clearly. When I said that student's shouldn't have to do something if they have a problem with it.... I meant that students should be allowed to excersize their right to not partake in something that offends their beliefs. In a way, it is like trying to force me to partake in a circumcision (God, I hope NO one reads that word ) It offends my body, it offends my mind. Same principle right?

 

[hot-rod]

If it is just the music, so be it. Music has no religion, regardless of how much organ you hear.

The lyrics are a whole other ball of wax.

Oh, there's plenty of spirituality in music.......And getting back to the organ, there's nothing better than listening to a great pipeorgan in a great cathedral for getting a truly religious experience. All that glorious sound from only 10 fingers and 2 feet..... the King of Instruments

 

[Pecker]

Sorry, students, but we can no longer teach Gregorian Chants, Baroque Oratorios, Negro Spirituals or other Gospel music, Masses, Requiems, Christmas carols, any Operas which mention diety, etc. etc. etc.

Now get out your Accordions and we'll play Lady of Spain. Again.

 

[Mr. Snakey]

I agree with what Pecker says about experiencing other faiths and ideas.

I am discussing the legal ramifications of this book used in school as a text book. We have some very specific case law around religion, schools, religious expression, students, teachers, etc. I think that this school (school system) could be in trouble if the right parents/lawyers/agencies got involved.

The parents,lawyers,angencies, have been involved since 1967 when they took god out of class room As a teacher Lex you know a lot more than i about the legal things. The best way to fix the problem is respect everybodys feelings.

 

[Mr. Snakey]

Sorry, students, but we can no longer teach Gregorian Chants, Baroque Oratorios, Negro Spirituals or other Gospel music, Masses, Requiems, Christmas carols, any Operas which mention diety, etc. etc. etc.

Now get out your Accordions and we'll play Lady of Spain. Again.

Aint that the fucking truth:biggrin1:

 

[fortiesfun]

Hey Doc,

In reference to your comment. I probably should have stated myself more clearly. When I said that student's shouldn't have to do something if they have a problem with it.... I meant that students should be allowed to excersize their right to not partake in something that offends their beliefs. In a way, it is like trying to force me to partake in a circumcision (God, I hope NO one reads that word ) It offends my body, it offends my mind. Same principle right?

Jeff:

We are often in agreement, here for example, (post #889) :wink: , but this time I am not sure you are making a strong analogy. Being asked to read a text that does not agree with your belief system is not automatically offensive, and it is not the same as being circumsized I don't think.

The reason is that we can look critically at all texts, and make judgments about them. Being exposed to an idea is not the same as being indoctorinated. Circumcision, as I can attest, is far more invasive and mostly beyond correction later.

In Josh's specific case, however, my point is only that I am not sure he is being asked to adopt a religious viewpoint about the text. In fact, I am not sure he is even being asked to think about the text. If they are studying the movement of the inner voices, for example, in a traditional hymn setting, then what anyone thinks about the words are irrelevant. If his rights are being violated and he is being forced to make a religious statement of belief, by all means, take a stand. But if he just doesn't like the words, I wonder if he would feel the same way if other students managed to opt out of his drama class because they disagreed with hearing him perform monologues from American Psycho, which (as I recall) he recently did. Individual preference about education doesn't go this deep.

Pace, however, insofar as I think we share a belief in seperation of church and state. We are only exploring if this has actually been violated.

 

[Nomad]

This is an outrage to me, I can't believe he is allowed to teach with this. Thats like letting teachers use the bible to teach an average science class

Slow down, my friend. First, he had no reason to laugh at you (or scoff, as you say), but I think the statement you made that I've quoted here does not draw a good comparison.

If you're studying music theory and your assignment involved analyzing voice leading or harmony, a hymnal is the best place you can go! Block the words out, if you have to, because nowhere else will you find such a vast and accessible warehouse to study out of.

If you are going to eliminate anything with even a whiff of religion or religious influence from your education, you are going to be left with almost nothing. Michelangelo's David, the western world's most notable sculpture? Gone. Bach, surely one of the cornerstones of all of western music? Flushed down the toilet. What about religious works of art by non-religious artists? (da Vinci, Verdi, Brahms, Beethoven--this list could go on forever)

To throw all that out would be a tremendous disservice to your education, and I hope for your sake that you don't become intolerant enough to do that.

 

[D_Sheffield Thongbynder]

Still, I'd be very wary of allowing hymnals in the classroom unless the curriculum clearly called for their inclusion for musical purposes. I've seen too many curricula subverted by fundamentalists. In the wrong hands, the hymnals could serve as subtle tools of indoctrination. I'd lean toward making the curriculum as bias-proof as possible.

 

[joyboytoy79]

Sorry, students, but we can no longer teach Gregorian Chants, Baroque Oratorios, Negro Spirituals or other Gospel music, Masses, Requiems, Christmas carols, any Operas which mention diety, etc. etc. etc.

Now get out your Accordions and we'll play Lady of Spain. Again.

Again, I only partially disagree with your original assessment of the situation. While i don't think Christmas Carols have much of a place in public schools (at least, not in the context they did in my school... ) i don't see any problem with the other examples you give. I don't think there would have been a problem with a single baptist hymn being included in a book about music history. There is no doubt that baptists have had an influence on music. The problem, at least in my mind, is that it is a whole book; basically what amounts to a religious text. It is also a very *specific* type of religious text. Not only christian, not only protestant, but baptist. This goes beyond simply mentioning a name or having innocent religious context. Baptist consider their hymnals to be sacred books. It would be tantamount to requiring students to read and recite the Bhagavad Gita in history class. To include excerpts in a broad text is fine... to require reading of the whole book is not.

 

[fortiesfun]

Baptist consider their hymnals to be sacred books.

Everyone considers their texts to be sacred. Doesn't mean you have to. Doesn't even mean you are being asked to.

 

[Randll86]

What Pecker is saying is have an open mind. I think he means learn all you can Learn all the religions. Learn about people who dont believe in anything But learn

Yes yes yes, Ignorance=Intolerance

 

[mephistopheles]

Study science and you'll find that there are some things that you'll have to learn which will make your asshole pucker. The same goes for astronomy, literature or even accounting.

Philosophy? Don't even consider walking into the classroom if you're thinskinned.

As for music, if you're not willing to open yourself to all kinds of interpretation, style and subjects, you're going to have a very limited exposure and therefore a very limited 'feel' for it.

I'm a Christian, mephistopheles, yet if I hadn't studied Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, etc., I feel I would be ignorant indeed, let alone intolerant and prideful.

Perhaps you should rethink your position. School isn't supposed to teach you only what you want to hear, is it?

I was raised to be a christian, and ive studied catholosism and judaism, so i know what you mean. And its becuase I studied those that I believe what I believe. I keep my mind wide open, but what I dont want is someone shoving a moldy old bible in my face at school, especially when its against the law.

You talk like I'm some sort of narrowminded person that doesnt want to know anything outside what I already know and thats not the truth. I know a lot and I am more open to learn, but i was forced to goto a christian church for 8 years and I'm not gonna take it anymore.

Thats right I was forced... I didn't know what I believed in those days, but i knew it was something I didnt believe or want to believe. You believe what you want, thats all up to you. Just becuase I dont want someone shoving something that I've grown to hate over the years into my face doesnt make me narrowminded, or thinkskinned, or whatever metaphor you have.

When I was 8 years old my christian grandmother told me "You're going to hell when you die if you dont get baptized and accept jesus christ as your savior and god." those were her exact words and I've carried them with me every day of my life. She later when on to describe what she saw hell as, "torture and burning agony forever, and thats where you and your family are going" I'm not exaggerating, or misquoting, those are her exact, precise words.

You'll have to forgive me if I refuse to be a part of something that tried to frighten me into belief.

So You've read me like a book, but you've read it wrong... I'm written right to left and you're reading left to right.

(also forgive me for grammatical or spelling errors, I'm writing in a hurry.)

Also, I think my feelings are best expressed through "Godless" a song written by Glenn Danzig - Released on his 1992 album How the Gods Kill)

godless
feeling
in me
night
after
night
godless
feeling
in me
borne
of
their lives

you gave me all of this
and more
yea that's for sure
i can't believe in all your pain
under the draining of a
christiandeities blood
you tell your children
they're insane

i couldn't love it anymore
i had to listen to my heart
i couldn't take it anymore
and so you leave me
godless

just spread your
tentacles
of hate
around my life
i've taken more than you could ever give
you can't believe that someone
challenges
your right
i'm gonna send you back your pain

i couldn't love it anymore
i had to listen to my heart
i couldn't take it anymore
and so you leave me
godless

(Though this song isn't the reason I feel the way I feel it kind of sums it all up for me in a neat little 5 minute song.)

 

[Gillette]

Oh, there's plenty of spirituality in music.......And getting back to the organ, there's nothing better than listening to a great pipeorgan in a great cathedral for getting a truly religious experience. All that glorious sound from only 10 fingers and 2 feet..... the King of Instruments

Spirituality for sure !
Music soothes the savage beast.

My meaning is that music, notes, harmonies, what-have-you, doesn't call to a particular deity or denomination. Even though we may associate certain kinds with certain sects that is just what we're taught. Doesn't really matter who the composer wrote it for. Really good music will move us because it is a pure expression.

If you take a young child and expose them to music, say the Kodo drummers from Japan, Bagpipers from Scotland, Aboriginal Didjeridu, O Fortuna from Carmina Burana or, yes, a great pipe organ, their eyes will go round at the power of it. But they don't need to know any of the reasons behind it to feel that power.

Music is absolutely spiritual. But I stand by my statement that it has no religion.

 

[brainzz_n_dong]

Josh,

Let me cut-n-paste something for you to read, briefly:

Lord, grant them eternal rest,
and let perpetual light shine upon them.

You shall have praise in Zion, O God,
and homage shall be paid to you in Jerusalem.

Hear my prayer.
All flesh shall come before you.
Lord, grant them eternal rest,
and let perpetual light shine upon them

This is the English translation of the Introitus of Mozart's Requiem. The rest of it can be located at http://www.students.cs.uu.nl/people/mjkammer/requiem.html

Why in the world did I post that? Well, I can't begin to sing except to see if the shrieking that would pass for my singing will drive mice out of a dwelling. But I am a Christian with an atheist friend who sings in the choir at my university (try that as a Jeopardy category for $500). I listened to him, back in May, along with several dozen others sing the Requiem at their spring concert. This is the start of his 3rd year in the choir. Performing songs like Mozart's Requiem have not made him entertain thoughts about becoming Christian - not in the least - but he knows that being open to this type of material will be expected (and required) of him if he expects to pursue this as his passion (he's thinking seriously about it). Don't get me wrong - he just as readily enjoys a secularly-based composition and likely would prefer it at all times, all things being equal. However, religiously-themed music can be a source of much passion and, as a singer, it is his job to bring that passion to the audience in order to entertain them.

You didn't say a word about wanting to become a professional singer, I know, and this is "just" a high school music class. I was thinking that perhaps a little "different but kinda similiar" perspective might help you sort things out. Maybe I wasted your time. Hope I didn't but anyway...welcome to a fellow Missourian. I live all the way across the state from you. I think that makes 3 of us on here...j/k. Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

I will say it this way: If your teacher's motivation for bringing the "tattered book" into the room is purely musical, then I see no harm in what he's done.

If your teacher begins using the hymnals as a source from which to begin discussing the pros/cons of becoming a Baptist, then he has crossed a line that he shouldn't even begin to cross.

But in any event, don't use the very unfortunate experiences you had with your grandmother as a basis to potentially pre-judge your music teacher's choices in music. Make every effort to meet with him face-to-face and explain yourself and how you feel. Allow him to do the same, and then go from there. Hopefully you will find out that the teacher simply has diverse musical passion...not a passion for proselytism.

I share Pecker's benign viewpoint on the matter, but none of what I suggested is about trying to force Christianity upon you. The path you choose in life is up to you, not your grandmother. You can enjoy the passion of religious music without subscribing to the muse behind it.

 

[JustAsking]

This is an outrage to me, I can't believe he is allowed to teach with this. Thats like letting teachers use the bible to teach an average science class, in place of evolution we have god creating everything...

mephi,
I applaud you thinking for yourself on this issue. I also think the comments from others so far are excellent. I would say that your particular incident is in the shades of grey area. So rather than a strong conclusion, I just have some loosely connected thoughts.

Firstly, the Supreme Court has ruled consistently that schools should be exactly neutral on the subject of religion. They can neither promote nor deny religious points of view. The Supreme Court considers Atheism a religion, which makes this neutrality thing easier to understand. This means that its perfectly ok and probably necessary for history or philosophy, music, art, literature, poetry, and even science class to talk about the affects of religion on those subjects (be it positive or negative). Since the influence of religion is very strong in western culture, the schools would be violating the constitution if they left that stuff out. (I don't mean teaching creationism as science, though. However, it would be very proper to teach creationism in science class as an example of "not science.")

Secondly, the part of the Constitution that is the basis for the Supreme Courts position on this is not based on protecting people from being offended. Thats a common mistake people make. Its not a big excercise in political correctness. So your being offended by the material is not by itself a legal problem. Its only a personal one.

The real point of the law is to force the state to be neutral on religion. So I would say that it would be very proper for your music teacher to have a wide range of secular and religious music being used with the choir and the band and for music appreciation. It would be improper and unconstitutional to have only religious music for those purposes as it would to have only secular music.

Where it starts to get hinky, though is when a teacher like yours only uses the Baptist Hymnal all year, or has a mix of secular music and then music only from the Baptist Hymnal. That might be a bit questionable, but it depends on how he approaches the matter. The point of the law is to protect the students from being an unwilling congregation in religious instruction by an agent of the government (in this case, your teacher). If he clearly offers the Baptist Hymnal as just an example of the religious influence on music, it might be ok. Christian hymns tend to be simple open and basic examples of western music with memorable tunes and lots of harmony. What I would find a bit questionable is for him to only use hymns because hymns are more like songs of indoctrination than something like a Bach Cantata, which is more like a work of religious art.

I guess I have rambled myself into the following position. Your being offended by your teacher's choice of music is not a Constitutional issue. However, if he is using it to promote a religious point of view, either overtly or covertly then it is a Constitutional issue.

If you are interested in Supreme Court decisions about this kind of stuff, one of the best supporters of freedom of religion is the Atheism.com site, ironically. They have dissected all the Supreme Court decisions about separation of church and state, including many public school issues. Their analysis is very clear and balanced.

Mephis, keep us up to date on what you have decided to do and how things turn out. Its a very interesting topic and your writing about your experience is very articulate.

 

[JustAsking]

But in any event, don't use the very unfortunate experiences you had with your grandmother as a basis to potentially pre-judge your music teacher's choices in music. Make every effort to meet with him face-to-face and explain yourself and how you feel. Allow him to do the same, and then go from there. Hopefully you will find out that the teacher simply has diverse musical passion...not a passion for proselytism.

That is excellent advice.

 

[coopturn]

I was raised to be a christian, and ive studied catholosism and judaism, so i know what you mean. And its becuase I studied those that I believe what I believe. I keep my mind wide open, but what I dont want is someone shoving a moldy old bible in my face at school, especially when its against the law.






FYI Catholics ARE Christians!

 

[PowayWolfman]

Religion belongs in the home and in the church of your respected faith,,,, thats it.. No were else.. If religion is so Sacred, why is it WHORED out so badly?? every Christian and catholic i know use any and every excuse to either bring up religion or try to convert some one... Personally, im a wicca.. and i respect and honor all people of faith as long as they show me the same curtisy,, once they dont,, all bets are off..

I say you did right by you,, and no one can fault you for that.