Separation between Religion and Schools

[Lordpendragon]

Shouldn't Christian music be studied in your English class? - under oxymoron.

 

[madame_zora]

Mephistopheles, I think you handled that with grace and integrity. I hope you let us know what happens as a result of your visit with your school's administration.

I was in high school in the late 70s, and I can assure you there was no such issue- ever. I see absolutley NO acceptable reason why a hymnal should be introduced into a music class in PUBLIC school. Fuckalotta that. I've noticed that the only people who don't see this as a problem are practising Christians, and that just makes me sad.

There was a time when Christians weren't so fucking annoying, and I would sincerely like to get back to that time- what has happened to you people in the last few years? It's positively disgusting, and I'm sick to death of it.

What's so goddamned confusing about keeping church out of school? We did it "way back in the day", but suddenly NOW we've just lost any sort of perspective on why this was important. Churches and church choirs are available everywhere, so someone interested in learning about that should have extremely easy access. If you can't understand why someone who is NOT a Christian has a problem singing songs to glorify God, YOUR God, then you are just too self-centered to get it. How would you like chanting to Allah amidst a roomful of practising Musilims, and having your grade depend on it?
Intimidation? You bet. Your teacher's sneering was completely unacceptable.

I had a driver's license at 16 and took it upon myself to visit several churches, and had short-term membership in several at different times- they were NOT the churches of my parents, who fortunately gave me room to experiment. I also hosted a Bible study group in my home for several of my friends, some of whom were Christians and many who were not. THAT is the proper environment to learn about the Bible, or in church, but public school? No how- no way!

I still have the NIV Bible my Christian friend bought me in high school- he even got my name embossed on it, and I consider it a valuable gift. He gave it to me because I asked him about religion, and that was his best answer. Even as a teenager full of Christian zeal, he never suggested I do anything more than read and learn on my own time, and draw my own conclusions.

Throughout my life, I have known many wonderful Christians such as this, and I wonder where they have all gone off to. Christianity would do well to take a lesson from AA and engage the policy of "attraction rather than promotion", because promotion sucks balls. I feel nothing but anger and disgust toward people who try to force feed their views into general society, it's wrong, wrong, wrong.

Don't allow yourself to be intimidated- by your posts thus far I believe that you will not. A line has been drawn, and it was drawn a very fucking long time ago. Too bad too many have no respect for the Constitution, but that's really their problem, until we allow it to be ours as well. Fuck religion in the classroom by force- it's just bullshit.

 

[fortiesfun]

I've noticed that the only people who don't see this as a problem are practising Christians, and that just makes me sad.

That may well be true, but we sure aren't all Baptists. At least one answer to your rhetorical question about what has happened to "us people" is that we have all been lumped together as if every person of faith was a fundamentalist. (Just a reminder that the official Baptist position is that I am going to burn in hell for my sexuality alone, not to mention a lot of other things that may not be so apparent on this board.) I could not, and do not, agree with the theology found in the Baptist hymnal and am not making my argument on the implied basis that Christianity ought to be taught in schools. But I am also a teacher and I know how the subject under discussion (Music Theory) is taught in even the most secular environments. If you remove all music associated with any religion from the school I am afraid you will find little more than contemporary rock in the curriculum, and maybe not that. I constantly face the removal of all art from the curriculum on the basis that somebody might be offended. It is all censorship. I fear that much more than I fear the idea that a student will encounter a text (which is not even being discussed) with which he doesn't agree.

 

[Lordpendragon]

Shouldn't Christian music be studied in your English class? - under oxymoron.

Apologies - that was a dumb comment.

 

[joyboytoy79]

That may well be true, but we sure aren't all Baptists. At least one answer to your rhetorical question about what has happened to "us people" is that we have all been lumped together as if every person of faith was a fundamentalist. (Just a reminder that the official Baptist position is that I am going to burn in hell for my sexuality alone, not to mention a lot of other things that may not be so apparent on this board.) I could not, and do not, agree with the theology found in the Baptist hymnal and am not making my argument on the implied basis that Christianity ought to be taught in schools. But I am also a teacher and I know how the subject under discussion (Music Theory) is taught in even the most secular environments. If you remove all music associated with any religion from the school I am afraid you will find little more than contemporary rock in the curriculum, and maybe not that. I constantly face the removal of all art from the curriculum on the basis that somebody might be offended. It is all censorship. I fear that much more than I fear the idea that a student will encounter a text (which is not even being discussed) with which he doesn't agree.

The argument doesn't appear to be that one must remove all music with a reference to any religion.

If an english teacher handed out bibles in english class, wouldn't that be offensive? The answer is "yes." Now, i studied excerpts from the bible in english class. The bible has had a huge influence on the litterary world. But the text those excerpts were contained it was not called "the bible" it was called "Stories from World Religions" and it included references to many religions from around the globe.

I don't see how this is any different. The "text" in question simply doesn't belong in a classroom. If one or two of the hymns were chosen as examples of a broad range of religious music that's had a noted impact on the development and history of music as a whole, that's different. The TEXT itself must give equal weight to several religions or the TEXT itself shows bias.

The introduction of religious material into the classroom for the purpose of historical example is rarely an issue of contention. The introduction of religious doctrine into the classroom is always an issue of contention. I don't think mephistopheles would have taken issue to hearing the word "God" in a song or two, but a whole book devoted to it, is just biased. There's no way around it.

 

[MattBrick]

I work in the public schools.
Here is the rule.
You teach religion, but you never teach devotional religion.

For example, you teach in geography that the population of Italy is generally Catholic, and the population of Indonesia is largely Muslim.

In World history, you would likely teach a good deal about the developement of those two religions and how they affected developments in their respective areas of influence.

In Foreign language, you would often discuss culture, including religion, and religious customs and festivals, ect. If you are teaching German, you will certainly mention Martin Luther and the Reformation for example.

In music, and art, we recognize that many of the greatest contributions to these disciplines are expressions of faith. Handel's Messiah, the temples of Tamil Nadu, and the icons/calligraphy of Hagia Sophia are examples.

The Baptist hymnal is important to the history and musical heritage of that region. Black spirituals for example, are an indiginous American musical genre, and a rare documented form of black culture. This is music that meant something to people, and is part of the development of this country.
Whether it still means something to some people, but not to you, isn't the point.

The teacher is right in exposing you to this. What is not acceptable is teaching or implying beyond the fact that these are/were religious beliefs held by some. It is innapropriate in a public school setting to teach certain beliefs are unequivical facts, are the right, or only right religious beliefs, that students should adhere to these, or any religious beliefs Also out is to make agreeing or disagreeing with these or any religious beliefs tied in anyway to the evaluation (grading) of the course, or in any other way to favor students professing certain beliefs, or to make it desirable or undesirable to do so by the tone, evaluation, or rules of the class.

With that said, there is not need to try to hide the fact that some, like the authors of the music you are studying, believe that "Jesus is Lord", or that others believe that "There is no god but God, and Mohamed is his prophet"

The public schools ensure that ALL students freedom of religon, and religious expression is protected. They don't provide a place where religion is outlawed outright
I hope this helps

Matt

 

[madame_zora]

The argument doesn't appear to be that one must remove all music with a reference to any religion.

If an english teacher handed out bibles in english class, wouldn't that be offensive? The answer is "yes." Now, i studied excerpts from the bible in english class. The bible has had a huge influence on the litterary world. But the text those excerpts were contained it was not called "the bible" it was called "Stories from World Religions" and it included references to many religions from around the globe.

I don't see how this is any different. The "text" in question simply doesn't belong in a classroom. If one or two of the hymns were chosen as examples of a broad range of religious music that's had a noted impact on the development and history of music as a whole, that's different. The TEXT itself must give equal weight to several religions or the TEXT itself shows bias.

The introduction of religious material into the classroom for the purpose of historical example is rarely an issue of contention. The introduction of religious doctrine into the classroom is always an issue of contention. I don't think mephistopheles would have taken issue to hearing the word "God" in a song or two, but a whole book devoted to it, is just biased. There's no way around it.

Oh god, thank you!

No one playing Mozart in band class is going to even KNOW what it says, unless someone translates it for them, and even if they do, I doubt that it would inspire prayer. I sang Italian arias, and I have no idea what they actually said, no doubt some of it was religious. Sheet music of a religious song, mixed in with a broad array of other works has never been a problem, but handing out hymnals certainly is- or it should be. I'm sure PLENTY of bitching would be going on if it were a hymnal of a religion other than Christianity, and by PARENTS.

Fourtiesfun, I understand what you are saying, but as I said earlier, this was never an issue when I was in school. While I don't dispute anyone's right to practise their religion, they don't need to do it in fucking school! If you can't understand why singing songs of devotion from a Baptist hymnal in public school is a problem then you just don't. I'll continue bitching my head off about the unwanted encroachment of Christianity into public schools with my last breath though, and I can only emphasize that you would understand my feelings more if it was Islam being forced down YOUR throat at every possible step. You just get to a point where you say fuck it- ALL of it- you religious ninnies get the fuck out of my face!

But you don't understand, and you probably never will because what is being shoved up everyone's ass is something you hold dear, and you just can't imagine why we're not more "open minded" :firedevil: to being brainwashed by it.
As I said, why can't we leave religion for church and school for school? I'm sick to fucking goddamned death of it, and it's just intolerable to ME. If my rights don't count as much as yours because you're in the majority, then we no longer have a democracy, which is actually true. Please allow me my sadness over the loss of Constitutional rights, while I still have the freedom to express it.

I was in choirs all through high school and college (OH- I went to a Southern Baptist college for the first two years!) and I NEVER had a hymnal given to me to sing from. THAT's the problem, get it? Religion class was not required even in a religious college, although chappel attendance once a week was. I knew that before I went, so I went to chapel like a good girl and observed respectfully, but it wasn't public school funded by tax dollars.

The fact that we even HAVE a government Department of Family Values is a disgrace, and the number of politicians now running on religious platforms is shocking, or it should be. You're old enough to remember when this was just not copacetic- why aren't you outraged too? Because it's YOUR religion, that's why.

 

[madame_zora]

I work in the public schools.
Here is the rule.
You teach religion, but you never teach devotional religion.

For example, you teach in geography that the population of Italy is generally Catholic, and the population of Indonesia is largely Muslim.

In World history, you would likely teach a good deal about the developement of those two religions and how they affected developments in their respective areas of influence.

In Foreign language, you would often discuss culture, including religion, and religious customs and festivals, ect. If you are teaching German, you will certainly mention Martin Luther and the Reformation for example.

In music, and art, we recognize that many of the greatest contributions to these disciplines are expressions of faith. Handel's Messiah, the temples of Tamil Nadu, and the icons/calligraphy of Hagia Sophia are examples.

The Baptist hymnal is important to the history and musical heritage of that region. Black spirituals for example, are an indiginous American musical genre, and a rare documented form of black culture. This is music that meant something to people, and is part of the development of this country.
Whether it still means something to some people, but not to you, isn't the point.

I'm with you up to this point, that was my experience too.

The teacher is right in exposing you to this.

Here's where we differ. The teacher would only be "right" in exposing him to this if he was using the same method of "exposing" the class to all the other religions as well. This method of only using the Baptist hymnal is highly weighted, and his sneering at his student's discomfort is inexcusable.

With that said, there is not need to try to hide the fact that some, like the authors of the music you are studying, believe that "Jesus is Lord", or that others believe that "There is no god but God, and Mohamed is his prophet"

No, there is never a reason to hide facts from people, I have no problem with introducing something as "this is what the people of this time and place believed" but if you are honestly saying that Christianity isn't currently getting the lion's share of attention, then your experiences and mine differ VASTLY. My daughter's experience in school was a live joke compared to mine, disgusting on so many levels it was just sad. We both counted down the days until she got out of that PUBLIC brainwashing establishment.

The public schools ensure that ALL students freedom of religon, and religious expression is protected. They don't provide a place where religion is outlawed outright

I can only say that this is entirely untrue in Ohio, stay where you are.

 

[Smev]

you should not be subjected to bible thumping in schools.



I am personally ambivalent about the use of a hymnal in a music theory class. Were it me, I would probably just get what music theory I could out of the music theory class and ingore the libretto. I believe what I believe, what my classmates or my teacher believe is their buisness. If the teacher was attaching a sermon to the theory lesson it might be a different story, however I didn't reading anyting in the org. message about "Bible thumping". (let's not inflate the issue.)

Clearly the teacher's reaction to the student's reluctance to use the materials presented was unprofessional and he most certainly should be reminded (by someone) to maintain a respectful decorum in the classroom.

 

[MattBrick]

Some people feel that Secularism, Agnosticism, atheism, existentialism are belief systems that are encrouching on the public schools, and being "forced down people's throats" as the saying goes.
This is felt especially acutly at public colleges on the East coast.

Why can't we leave religion for church (temple, ect.) and school for school?
The answer is that they overlap, and are interconnected.
Religion deals with how we live, and reaches into all aspects our life. Education includes opening up to all aspects of learning, from mathematics to arts apreciation, to religion and sex education.

For the author of this post. You don't have to see the hymnal as devotional, if it isn't to you. Consider it as an expression and documentation of the faith, and hopes of those who authored, compiled, and who do sing it devotionally - all this appart from it's value as a poetic and musical work. You're beliefs may differ.
You are not alone in feeling like this, It's something many of us in a pluralistic society deal with on a day to day basis. For my Jewish friends, December meant singing Hanukah, and Christmas songs, just as it did for Gentile students. They mostly liked the songs, they just hummed along to the parts they didn't believe. For me, in another example, I believe that the factory farming, and mass slaughter of domestic animals for human consumption (and waste) is very wrong on all levels, from environmental, to humane, to societal, to health, moral and religious concerns. Nevertheless, taco boats were served in the lunch room today. I had to grin and bear it. What's worse, is in my graduate nurtrition classes, I have ( a very few) teachers who preach that the consumption of huge quantities of meat is normal and necessary! I value the work of those professors, researchers and studies, but I feel differently!
Matt

 

[JustAsking]

The introduction of religious material into the classroom for the purpose of historical example is rarely an issue of contention. The introduction of religious doctrine into the classroom is always an issue of contention. I don't think mephistopheles would have taken issue to hearing the word "God" in a song or two, but a whole book devoted to it, is just biased. There's no way around it.

I think you have a point there about handing out the whole hymnal intact. It would have been more appropriate to copy one or two songs. Hymns are songs of indoctrination and certainly not often considered works of art. Hymns are the religious equivalent of patriotic songs. Hymns have certainly influenced our music, but giving out the entire hymnal might be over the edge and if a suit were filed about that, it would not be an open and shut case. It would be taken seriously by the courts regardless of which way they decided.

If my son were interested in this issue and as articulate as mephis about it, I would certainly support him if he engaged the teacher and even the school administration in a conversation about why he thought the use of the entire hymnal was not appropriate.

The Supreme Court uses the Lemon Test as a guideline in issues like this: If they feel any government action (which includes a public school teacher) which violates any of these three "prongs", is unconstitutional:

1. The government's action must have a legitimate secular purpose;
2. The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion; and
3. The government's action must not result in an "excessive entanglement" of the government and religion.

Using the entire hymnal might be a problem with prong #2 and #3, since "the legitimate secular purpose" could just as easily be satisfied by copying the few songs instead. However, a policy of allowing no hymns at all would violate prong #2.

Disclaimer: Although I am not a lawyer, it doesn't stop me from shooting my mouth off about it anyway.

 

[Nemo_Steampunk]

If an english teacher handed out bibles in english class, wouldn't that be offensive? The answer is "yes." Now, i studied excerpts from the bible in english class. The bible has had a huge influence on the litterary world. But the text those excerpts were contained it was not called "the bible" it was called "Stories from World Religions" and it included references to many religions from around the globe.

Then what's the difference between it being excerpted and being handed the 'source text' as it were? I'm Christian, and I wouldn't object to being handed a Koran or Bhagatavita as part of a world lit. course. I think you're making a distinction without a difference.

The "text" in question simply doesn't belong in a classroom. If one or two of the hymns were chosen as examples of a broad range of religious music that's had a noted impact on the development and history of music as a whole, that's different. The TEXT itself must give equal weight to several religions or the TEXT itself shows bias.

I'm not sure I agree; why is bias, in and of itself, a bad thing? I expect Christian texts to have Christian bias. I would equally expect Buddhist texts to have a Buddhist bias. Education isn't about the elimination of bias; it's about learning how to sift through the bias and draw your own conclusions.

The introduction of religious material into the classroom for the purpose of historical example is rarely an issue of contention. The introduction of religious doctrine into the classroom is always an issue of contention. I don't think mephistopheles would have taken issue to hearing the word "God" in a song or two, but a whole book devoted to it, is just biased. There's no way around it.

There's also no way of getting around the reality that every book, every story, every song, has a bias in the direction of the author's intention. IOWs, if you're eliminating all 'bias,' then eliminate The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, because it has a very definite bias against slavery.

There's several questions that I think you need to ask your teacher, like what the purpose of using the Baptist Hymnal is? Was he genuinely trying to prosletyze or was he using it for a less nefarious purpose? I'm not saying what you did was wrong, just maybe a little... premature.

 

[JustAsking]

Then what's the difference between it being excerpted and being handed the 'source text' as it were? I'm Christian, and I wouldn't object to being handed a Koran or Bhagatavita as part of a world lit. course. I think you're making a distinction without a difference.

I would not object to it either except that it's an agent of the government handing it to me. I think there is a difference. I think if the school goes beyond what it needs to do for "the legitimate secular purpose", it is getting to the point of "excessive entaglement". The motivation of the teacher is not as important as the result to the student. The bias that Nemo was referring to is unavoidable and doesn't need to be avoided. The real issue is the balancing the need to limit excessive entanglement with the need to accomplish the secular purpose.

If Corinthian's 13:1-13 is going to be studied for its poetry style, then it should be distributed by itself. Handing out the entire Bible is excessive entanglement and does not contribute to the secular purpose of the lesson.

This might sound like nitpicking but both Mme Zora and the Supreme Court have recognized that this kind of stuff is a slippery slope. In fact the term "slippery slope" has been used more than once in a Supreme Court decision. Living in Northern Ohio these days, I can see that slope all too well. Not living in Southern Ohio, I don't have first-hand experience with what appears to be the avalanche that Mme Zora has seen, but I believe her completely.
If I were still living near Boston I would be reading all this and saying that we were all nitpicking too much. And if all schools were like schools near Boston it would be just nitpicking. But the stuff that Mme Zora is talking about is extremely real. Some places in the US seem right out of The Handmaiden's Tale.

Consider this. What do tyrants like Chairman Mao do to hold onto their power? Answer: They coopt the military and the police force, and they change what is taught in schools so as to indoctrinate the next generation. The same thing is happening in areas of Islamic extremism. If you want to raise an army of believers, start teaching it in school. Although I must say that its wrong to replace one tyranny with another, I think that unreasonable threats to individual liberty must be answered with excessive vigilance.

Mephis's teacher might not be trying to compromise his liberty, but the action itself is the issue. Mephis's teacher could have all the best intentions. He also might actually have a sensitivity to the Establishment Clause and not realize he might be pushing the envelope. So any discussion with him should start with that as an assumption and should consider the objective aspect of the situation. Something like "I understand the value of studying a few hymns as part of our musical heritage, and as great songs for learning harmony, etc. But I think that handing out the entire hymnal might have an effect beyond that purpose even if that is not your intention." And so on.

But Mephis, whether you take this issue up or not is up to you. Not every fight needs to be fought and you certainly don't have to answer to anyone here. However, if you do take it up, try to draw your teacher into it as a partner in discussing the Constitutionality issues, not as an adversary. You both may come out of it thinking differently about it and with a lot of respect for each other. (Or he could be a complete asshole about it. You never know.)

By the way, all the advice here is excellent, even if it is conflicting. Thats the nature of something as complex as this.

Is any of it a help to you, though? I am interested in your thoughts after reading it all.

 

[tygrrr]

i was forced to goto a christian church for 8 years and I'm not gonna take it anymore.

Thats right I was forced... I didn't know what I believed in those days, but i knew it was something I didnt believe or want to believe. You believe what you want, thats all up to you. Just becuase I dont want someone shoving something that I've grown to hate over the years into my face doesnt make me narrowminded, or thinkskinned, or whatever metaphor you have.
(...)
You'll have to forgive me if I refuse to be a part of something that tried to frighten me into belief.

I think I can understand it a whole lot better knowing those things about you. - While I really don't know where your teacher stands when it comes to religion, or what his pedagogic approach is - or how well he knows you, I think - if I was you - that I would try to explain to him just why those hymns are a problem to you.
Actually, for what I know, he might have felt an urge to laugh about it because he felt in a similar way as you. There could be many reasons for his reaction actually.
Surely, one needs a bit of distance and objectivity to succesfully approach a subject like Music Theory, and it seems you got handed the worst possible selection of music for that. - However, with that particular subject, you really can't avoid looking at the the impact of religion in musical expression. You can't possibly deal only with compositions devoid of religious themes, in the same way as you can't approach Western philosophy, painting, or literature in this way either - it will be practically impossible.
Now, if you are able to look at those hymns, the music and the words, dispassionately, then you are approaching them from a theoretical point of view. Do you think every professional musician that performs religious inspired music are passionate believers? I can assure you that this is not so. Try getting some distance by have some fun with it. In private - perhaps make you own personal twists on the text, playing around with the words, while working with - it always helps.
I love all kinds of music and I also worked with classical music for some time. Bach is one composer that has made some amazing music - much of it with really 'devout' titles, as custom and the taste of benefactors dictated...- we used to rename his cantatas with titles like: 'Liebster Jesu, hast du Feuer?' ('Dearest Jesus, have you got a light?') and similar ones, just to be able to get a little distance to all that... All in a humurous and good-natured way, mind you - (and personally I enjoy the spiritual aspects of his - and most other - music, allthough I'm very deliberately not a member of any religion or church.)
Anyway, you actually can't avoid this problem with a subject like Music Theory so try to look for a way to deal with. I understand that putting those years of forced church-going behind you might be a long process, but you've got to do it. Maybe this is even a good way to get on with or further that process... Best of luck to you whatever your choices will be!

 

[Lordpendragon]

Apologies if this is a dumb question from an interested Brit.

We would have an approved reading list and or specialist text books covering a class like this (and all others for that matter). The text books would carry all areas of interest to the subject and so you would avoid this situation.

It would appear to me that this teacher is out of line and should be brought to book as he will continue otherwise.

Schools are for educating the mind, not saving souls.

 

[joyboytoy79]

I'm Christian, and I wouldn't object to being handed a Koran or Bhagatavita as part of a world lit. course.

As a part of the dominant culture, Christianity, you would likely not feel as though the Bhagavad Gita or Quran were opressive documents. As a Hindu or a Muslim you would likely feel different (as the original poster does) about Christian texts.

The purpose of Separation between Church and State (in this case, an agent of the state: the schools) is to provide every person of every religion with an UNBIASED ability to practice. The dominant culture will see a reference to God and say "i wouldn't feel threatened by a reference to Allah, so why is a muslim threatened by a reference to God." But i ask you to put yourself into the minority view of the issue. Imagine for a moment that you live in Dubai. You are still a christian. You attend school there, and in Arabic class (obviously, you wouldn't speak english in Dubai) you are handed the whole Quran as a text book. Wouldn't you find it slightly insulting? Wouldn't you feel a bit like YOUR religious preference was being asked to take back seat? After all, the Quran is considered sacred by everyone else in the room, and they may judge you for not considering it sacred alone with them.

If the purpose is to provide a broad prospective, then the work should be presented in conjunction with other works which it may be compared to.

 

[Fireballs]

Here's where we differ. The teacher would only be "right" in exposing him to this if he was using the same method of "exposing" the class to all the other religions as well. This method of only using the Baptist hymnal is highly weighted, and his sneering at his student's discomfort is inexcusable.

I have much to say,
and it won't fit in haiku.
I won't even try.
​

Now, with that out of the way... I do agree, in theory, that a more world-encompassing view of sacred music would not go amiss in this case. There are some problems, though.

First of all, the fact is that in Western music, Christianity is unusually well-represented. Mozart's requiem is very much Christian. A lot of the sacred music out there is Christian. Sneering at students is certainly uncalled for, but to remove Christian music from a curriculum would do a great disservice, as a lot of the best stuff would go out the window, and a lot of the not-so-best stuff is still good for illustrating the basics, since it was DESIGNED to be easily grasped.

Second, I assume we're dealing with Western Music Theory? The music of many other cultures would HAVE to be put in the advanced classes, if it was to be covered at all. (Indian Music, for example, has nearly twice as many notes in its tone row as Western Music: two C#'s, two D's, two D#'s, two E's, and so on for every note except C and G.)

Jewish and other Middle Eastern Music? Perhaps later in the course: these kinds of music tend to use the Phrygian Dominant scale a lot, which isn't strictly diatonic. Most teachers would want to cover the standard major, minor, and church modes BEFORE exposing their students to trickier concepts like tonal structures that include both minor seconds and major thirds. (E Phrygian Dominant: E, F, G#, A, B, C, D. It's the fifth mode of A Harmonic Minor.)

There is some Classical Music that's decidedly non-Christian... but as important as Stravinsky is in Music, his clever uses of dissonance also belong in the advanced classes.

I hate to say it, as I'm an atheist myself, but the best music out there for illustrating basic principles is going to lean heavily toward Christian.

 

[MattBrick]

To Smev,

and ingore the libretto

That would be a good solution, but words are an important part of singing.
You need to learn about meters, and how the words fit the notes, and how the feeling of the poetry relates to the music, how to sing it.

I would guess though that the maine focus of the lesson is the music.
Matt

 

[mephistopheles]

will say it this way: If your teacher's motivation for bringing the "tattered book" into the room is purely musical, then I see no harm in what he's done.

If your teacher begins using the hymnals as a source from which to begin discussing the pros/cons of becoming a Baptist, then he has crossed a line that he shouldn't even begin to cross.

But in any event, don't use the very unfortunate experiences you had with your grandmother as a basis to potentially pre-judge your music teacher's choices in music. Make every effort to meet with him face-to-face and explain yourself and how you feel. Allow him to do the same, and then go from there. Hopefully you will find out that the teacher simply has diverse musical passion...not a passion for proselytism.

I share Pecker's benign viewpoint on the matter, but none of what I suggested is about trying to force Christianity upon you. The path you choose in life is up to you, not your grandmother. You can enjoy the passion of religious music without subscribing to the muse behind it.

The books are not only for the sake of music... He brought them in becuase he leads the church choir at whatever church he goes to, and in several instances(not only in music theory class) he makes several reference to jesus christ, not only as a historical figure, but the savior of all mankind... I find it strange he can pull something like this off in passing, but the fact remains. And as I sat in the back of the room working out of a different book than everyone else they pulled verses and rhymes out of the hymnal and discussed their significance to how they live their lives. (this isn't something I really care about, I hear tons of people discussing things of this sort, especially fresh out of summer, and fresh out of church camp. (though I don't know if that really counts considering all the other children in the class were replying and enjoy the coversation.

And my grandmother isnt the only reason I shunned christianity... yes, its one of them, but I have several other reasons why i shun other religions and choose the path i take.

And I cannot "enjoy the passion of religious music without subscribing to the muse behind it." Music, in its essence, is the single most important thing to me... I listen to the music I listen to, not because it gives me social status or whatever, I listen to music for the message, for what the music and the musician him/herself stand for. Lyrics, beats, and voice; its all relative compared to the message, and what the person behind the music stands for.

I can't listen to music glorifying something I don't believe in.

The only exception I have to this is Elvis Presley... Not becuase I choose to make the exception, but becuase Elvis comes through in a way no other country/rock/gospel singer comes through(particularly on "In the Ghetto")

And when It comes to music I have a wide range of what I listen to and what I take with pride and passion... I'm not like someone else that says "I listen to everything" -- They listen to anything thats popular and played on the radio.

Music fuels me, it fuels my mind, my body, and my(if there is such a thing) soul. I dont here a song on the radio and say "i like this song... so i like this band... or this is a catchy melody"

I listen to everything from Elvis Presley, to Glenn Danzig; from Buddy Holly to Frank Zappa. My passion knows no bounds. Not only do I listen to music but I write it, perform it, I live it.

I am music and music is me. Him bringing in a hymnal, for me to learn from, is like giving the The Holy Bible to an athiest historian... They wont take from it what someone of said religion might get from it.



ALSO

Yes, all the advice in those thread is greatly appreciated... Though I feel like I'm being badly misunderstood.

 

[Nemo_Steampunk]

I think if the school goes beyond what it needs to do for "the legitimate secular purpose", it is getting to the point of "excessive entaglement".

The problem with Lemon in this particular instance is that Lemon addresses the use of money in Church/state stuff, not an 'action.' So I'm not sure that the Lemon Test is even applicable (but then again, I'm not a lawyer). We also don't know what the 'secular purpose' of handing a hymnal to a student, so there's an issue of assuming the worst of intentions.

The motivation of the teacher is not as important as the result to the student. The bias that Nemo was referring to is unavoidable and doesn't need to be avoided. The real issue is the balancing the need to limit excessive entanglement with the need to accomplish the secular purpose.

Actually, I think if you're going to talk in Lemon Test terms, then I think the motivation of the teacher is exactly what is important, since he's the one determing both the purpose and the entanglement.

I largely agree with the rest of your post, JustAsking, but I think that there's also a hyper-sensitivity that flows through Church/State issues in the U.S. (on both sides) that isn't healthy for the country, and the discussion just winds up being shriller and shriller until no one's listening... And that's when tyrants have their opportunity. Maintaining seperation of Church and State in public schools is a hill to die on, I am concerned that occasionally we mistake molehills for real hills.