Separation between Religion and Schools

[Dr. Dilznick]

You give educators more credit than I do. You trust them to present the material without imposing their personal opinions on the class. I don't. I've just seen it happen too many times, and I am angry at myself for not taking it further on a legal level when I should have. That anger is still unresolved, and I STILL hope her principal chokes on a dick and dies. As a matter of fact, I nearly pray he does.

Right. By the time *most* kids graduate from high school, they've already had eighteen years of cultural and ideological conditioning and have a pretty firm set of viewpoints that are pretty difficult to change.

 

[madame_zora]

Right. By the time *most* kids graduate from high school, they've already had eighteen years of cultural and ideological conditioning and have a pretty firm set of viewpoints that are pretty difficult to change.

Oh, so sad but true. One of her principal's most gorgeous blunders was this- Julianna and her then girlfriend were sitting together before school, I think Bobi had her head on Julianna's shoulder. A girl came by and started calling them carpet munchers, and every other gay slam she could think of, so Bobi said, "So what? You're black". The girl went running with a quickness to tell the principal, who admonished only my daughter and Bobi, NOT the girl who had started it by using excessive language, and Bobi had only stated a fact, not a conclusion drawn from a fact (calling someone gay is different from calling them an insulting name because they're gay. She didn't call the girl a "nigger" in retaliation). The principal said Bobi was wrong because.....wait for it....it's really good...."At least you can HIDE what's wrong with you"!!! With that, he insulted both blacks AND gays, and suggested they should both be in hiding!

Now someone, ask me again why I'm angry.

 

[Dr. Dilznick]

The principal said Bobi was wrong because.....wait for it....it's really good...."At least you can HIDE what's wrong with you"!!!

*dies*

Hey, the Curse of Cain is a lot of weight to carry around.

As a high school history teacher, though, you're not going to be able to separate your beliefs from your presentation of the material. You can make a damn good effort to do so and keep it to a minimum, but choosing a narrative and a means with which you thread the material together necessarily involves a commitment to some set of beliefs. While I'm by no means advocating a total relativism where we say all narratives are equal, I do think that you *must* choose a narrative. Otherwise a course would be a disorganized and completely incoherent enterprise.

To take a very extreme example, your desire to see only "facts" and not "values" in the classroom would force me, if I were teaching a modern Germany course, to be very, very careful never to express any negative feelings about the Nazi party. After all, students need to think for themselves.

 

[madame_zora]

*dies*

Hey, the Curse of Cain is a lot of weight to carry around.

As a high school history teacher, though, you're not going to be able to separate your beliefs from your presentation of the material. You can make a damn good effort to do so and keep it to a minimum, but choosing a narrative and a means with which you thread the material together necessarily involves a commitment to some set of beliefs. While I'm by no means advocating a total relativism where we say all narratives are equal, I do think that you *must* choose a narrative. Otherwise a course would be a disorganized and completely incoherent enterprise.

I guess I would suggest chronology? And please, I have no problem with teachers saying "This is what happened, this is the impact it had on other cultures of the time, and this is what I see coming from it." But as you challenged me, I would challenge educators to differentiate what is personal opinion from what is fact. I'm not saying they should never state their opinions or conclusions, just that (especially in the case of being responsible for the development of young minds) they should NEVER present their opinions as fact. At least I'm talking to adults, in a place they are not required by law to be.

To take a very extreme example, your desire to see only "facts" and not "values" in the classroom would force me, if I were teaching a modern Germany course, to be very, very careful never to express any negative feelings about the Nazi party. After all, students need to think for themselves.

No, I don't want that. I just want them to be presented as what they are, and I don't trust most teachers to have the mental capabilities to do that anymore, because of the overwhleming influence that fundamentalism has had on our whole society in the last twenty years. Yeah, Clinton was dirty in this as was Reagan.
I went to school before all that, so the difference is extremely noticalbe to me. MY teachers actually DID respect my need for individual discovery- in fact, they fostered it. What a sad thing to see now, when one hopes for societal advance.

Rather than promote an agenda, I see it as the responsibility of an educator to teach students to use their minds, teach them a reasoning process by which they can draw their own conclusions. Instead what he have come to is a cut-and-paste school system that feeds kids words to barf back out for standardised tests (that are INCREDIBLY different from the ones we old folks took!) to prove that "no child is left behind". Doesn't matter if the motherfucker can decide between a hamburger or a goddamned fish sandwich. I agree with you about values being good to teach (at least the process of arriving upon them), or the facts alone are useless. It's just the give a man a fish/teach a man to fish argument.




As an afterthought, I don't want prayer, personal testimony about "salvation" or even denomination specific information from the teachers at all. I never knew what church any of my teachers went to, and I thought that was fine. I also didn't know who they fucked, who they voted for, or what they had for breakfast, and frankly I never cared. What I cared about was how able they were to teach me the subject with which they were charged, and if they were willing to work with me where I might have difficulty. Where they stand on God is just a completely irrelevant point.

 

[fortiesfun]

Dear Zora:

What reasoned and moderate replies. I am genuinely appreciative of the thoughtfulness of them because they are about very big issues, and should incite very big emotions. I certainly don't expect you to tone down your rhetoric or your style, especially because you have this extremely irritating habit of turning out to be correct. Certainly in this case, subsequent events have proven your instincts more finely honed than mine.

I don't want to oversimplify, but I find myself saying "Be careful about swatting flies with a sledgehammer. It annoys the flies and it leaves big, f'ing holes in your walls." You rightly indicate that you heard me, and are not overlooking this caution.

I hear you saying, "Beware of making molehills out of mountains, or at least quit acting so surprised when you find yourself buried under tons of dirt." Sure looks like I would be well served to be more observant about this guideline. You are on the red state front line and see the battle from closer than I now do.

I do have a lot of faith in educators, in part because I am one and I know so many good ones, including a lot of incredible LPSG members. In the end, we will need good ones to correct some of the things that are so very wrong with American society right now. But, when I am sitting quietly, I can concur that the power differential is very great in the classroom and it can be (and, alas, is) abused by the ignorant. (What an appalling example you give of the principal's "you can hide what is wrong with you" comment. Sort of offends everybody in one swipe.)

Your genitals are safe, unless there's something you'd like me to do to them.

I'm sorry I don't have the gift of word economy, I just didn't want you to think I was angry at you when I am in fact angry about the issue.

To the former, well, I no less than everyone here have a long list of things I'd like you to do to them. I refrain from PMing them to you in respect for your instructions, and not from any lack of lust!

To the latter, I am reminded of Thomas Jefferson's famous remark that he was sorry he had written a long letter but he didn't have the time to make it shorter. How I wish I had the intellectual power to keep it concise. I envy Pecker in that regard more than I can say.

My best to you. I come away with even more respect than before. Glad to know I am not the object of your anger, and proud to join you in more of it than I wish was necessary.

"When will decency return?" - William Finn. Elegies.

 

[Shelby]

Y'all have done a pretty good job of covering all the heady nuances so I'm not going to bother weighing in.

I do wonder however, given his choice of monikers, whether mephistopheles maybe has an axe to grind.

 

[D_Herin_Ghan]

Study science and you'll find that there are some things that you'll have to learn which will make your asshole pucker. The same goes for astronomy, literature or even accounting.

Philosophy? Don't even consider walking into the classroom if you're thinskinned.

As for music, if you're not willing to open yourself to all kinds of interpretation, style and subjects, you're going to have a very limited exposure and therefore a very limited 'feel' for it.

I'm a Christian, mephistopheles, yet if I hadn't studied Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, etc., I feel I would be ignorant indeed, let alone intolerant and prideful.

Perhaps you should rethink your position. School isn't supposed to teach you only what you want to hear, is it?

It's nice to know someone isn't this world has gone mad.

Hate to tell you this kid, but Christian music is still music. Gospel is primarily Christian. So are you going to completely write off a style of music, simply because it's not your belief?

I think you're being way to touchy on the subject.

 

[B_big dirigible]

Mephistopheles should't worry so much about religious indoctrination.

I spent a few years in a Catholic prison camp in New Jersey where the escaped war criminals - sorry, nuns - did their almighty best to beat the love of Jesus into me. Just a waste of time, because even at that young age I could see through their simplistic propaganda. In fact the constant coercion from Sister Adolf and Sister Hermann probably made me the man I am today.

Oops. Maybe mephistoles should worry.

 

[JustAsking]

I wonder when--if ever--this country will get back to our written Constitution while guaranteeing the right of highly religious people to talk about religious issues in public discourse.

Outside of forbidding the government from doing so, which is mandated by the Constitution, where have you seen the public discussion of religious issues suppressed?

 

[Freddie53]

Would that this were an isolated offense, but it is far from even unusual, at least where I live. It is the norm, it is acceptable, and anyone who disagrees is made to feel ugly. Oh yes, you bet your ass their grades depend on it! It's intimidation of the most repugnant kind, and if your child had experienced it like mine had, if you had spent the useless hours at the school talking to an ignorant motherfucking principal about why it was unacceptable, you might be cursing as much as me.

This is all to common and it comes from peole who wantt to make the chidlren be like "me." It dousn't matter if the person is Christian, Muslim, ahteist or what ever

You give educators more credit than I do. You trust them to present the material without imposing their personal opinions on the class. I don't. I've just seen it happen too many times, and I am angry at myself for not taking it further on a legal level when I should have. That anger is still unresolved, and I STILL hope her principal chokes on a dick and dies. As a matter of fact, I nearly pray he does.

The ideal educator should present the information in an unbiased, uncensored lesson. However, ideal educators are hard to find.

Most educagtors already have predetermined what they want the children to believe. Hense, they persent the information in such a way that the students will come to the desired conclusion.

This is the opposite of what public schools should be doing. Public schools are about teaching democracy, learning to do your civit duties, learning to gather ALL the facts and learn to think critically and hopefully in an unbiased mannter.

Not sure anyone can complertely do that either the teacher or the student 100 percent of the time. Nevertheless, it should be the goal of both student and teacher.

And here I will take exception- have I not said several times that singing a few songs was okay, but bringing in the text was suspect? I copied and pasted a post where a member had stated exactly that at the beginning of my reply! I said "thank god" because I was relieved that someone other than me found that to be the critical complaint.

When I taught elemtaary music, I taught the music of the civil war to go along with whay they were learning in social studies. We listened to ALL the songs I had. I told the stuents that did not have to sing anything they didn't feel comfortable singing, but they could sing along with any song they wished. I explained that "Dixie" was a repulsive song to many people and why.

Yet we listened to the song one time. To ignore the most popular song of the South is censroing.

But there is a tremendous difference between LISTENING to the song ONE time and LEARNING the words and PERFORMING THE SONG on stage. To reqiore African Americans to sing "Dixie" on stage would be hghly in appropriate.

Being made aware of historical information whether it is good or bad is not wrong. To try to mold studetns to a particular set of beliefs that is not universal to Americans is wrong.

To promote democracy and the ideals of the Constitution is appropriate.

One of our cherished universal ideals set for in the Consittution is Freedom of religion. Educators have a duiy to hold that ideal in high esteem in the classroom.

 

[joyboytoy79]

I'm noticing a large number of posters who make statements along the lines of "toughen up." This dismays me greatly. I would like to point out that not making a stand for what one believes in, weather the belief is right or wrong, is tantamount to cowardice. One does not "toughen up" by sitting back and taking the abuses he or she is handed (be they real or percieved). If the young gentleman who originated this post feels strongly that his rights have been violated (and he clearly does) the best way for him to "toughen up" is to seek justice! If he has to get the ACLU involved and start a legal battle, so be it!

 

[mephistopheles]

My parents are behind me all the way...


They may be christians, but they know I'm not and they accept it. If this all doesnt get sorted out with me, the counselor, and the teacher we'll have to put something else into action.

And Mr. Holt seems to believe that I am an uneducated heathen hellbent on bringing satan, or some other dark magic, into his classroom. And
I don't doubt that he teaches some sunday school, or perhaps the church choir, and thats fine... he can do whatever he wants in his church, but to bring that to a music classroom and trying to teach me how to behave in a "christian" manner. Today he felt it necessary to take me to his office and explain how a "normal" person acts, and about etiquette and good nature.

He reminds me of when I went to church, all those people crowding in on me, trying to prgram me how they want me, like a computer.

ALSO Thanks for noticing my sig, thats my favorite song I've written.

 

[Gillette]

Josh,

Document everything, in excruciating detail, from a third person perspective.
Don't make descriptions colorful, but do make them very precise.
The further this goes, the more important your documentation will be.

Good luck.

 

[DaveyR]

Josh,

Document everything, in excruciating detail, from a third person perspective.
Don't make descriptions colorful, but do make them very precise.
The further this goes, the more important your documentation will be.

Good luck.

Excellent advice here from Gillette. As Gillette says the details do need to be precise and they should be presented factually in an unbiased way.

 

[B_big dirigible]

I'm noticing a large number of posters who make statements along the lines of "toughen up." This dismays me greatly. I would like to point out that not making a stand for what one believes in, weather the belief is right or wrong, is tantamount to cowardice. One does not "toughen up" by sitting back and taking the abuses he or she is handed (be they real or percieved). If the young gentleman who originated this post feels strongly that his rights have been violated (and he clearly does) the best way for him to "toughen up" is to seek justice! If he has to get the ACLU involved and start a legal battle, so be it!

We can't all run around with our outrage knobs permanently set on "11", although some here make valiant, albeit tiresome, attempts to do so.

We have to pick our fights, put serious effort into the important ones, and let the less important ones slide. That's just arithmetic, not cowardice. None of us will live long enough to fight about everything.

The advice on this thread has been running along the lines of (1) separation of church and state is a good idea, perhaps the best political idea we've inherited from the Enlightenment, (2) proselytizing in public schools is not a good idea because of its conflict with 1, and in many cases in the US is actually illegal, also because of conflict with 1, (3) religious hymns per se are not inappropriate material for music classes, (4) more than a few of us have had regrettable experiences with adherents of some of the world's major religions, but those experiences have little to do with hymns or music classes, so (5) it's not clear from the original post that mephistopheles isn't overreacting just a wee bit, provided that (6) there isn't more to the story buried in those 90-odd posts.

Pretty sensible advice, in the main.

 

[JustAsking]

big_dirigible,
You forgot 4a) while in his capacity as an employee of the government, on several occasions proseletyzing to and conducting religious discussions using Baptist themes and writings with an unwilling and captive congregation. To wit:

... and in several instances(not only in music theory class) he makes several reference to jesus christ, not only as a historical figure, but the savior of all mankind... ...And as I sat in the back of the room working out of a different book than everyone else they pulled verses and rhymes out of the hymnal and discussed their significance to how they live their lives. .

Mephis,
I am very glad to here that you are able to work with your parents on this. That makes all the difference in the world. I hope you are all able to resolve it without too much trouble. There will probably be some nastiness, however. He obviously respects you about as much as he respects the Constitution. Good luck with this.

 

[mephistopheles]

Thanks for the support, today when I got home from school I started typing up what had happened, just to keep a bit of a record, and I think I've done a fair job of keeping it unbiased.
I have a feeling it wont go too far. I have a feeling(from the way mr holt acts) that he will do just about anything to worm his way out of trouble. And if all else fails I'll just have myself removed from his "enlightening" class.
hopefully we can resolve this without anyone "losing"

thanks a ton,

Josh Dodson

 

[JustAsking]

Nuff said.

 

[rob_just_rob]

Separation between Religion and Schools​

​

I think this is a good idea.

I think we should start instructing people about religion in school about the same time as we start teaching trigonometry (or evolution, for that matter) in church.

 

[SpeedoGuy]

Thanks for the support, today when I got home from school I started typing up what had happened, just to keep a bit of a record, and I think I've done a fair job of keeping it unbiased.

I think that is an excellent idea. Documentation and record keeping is a good idea in itself but, additionally, the simple act of writing helps me vent my frustrations and keep my mind clear for whatever challenges lie ahead.

I've followed this thread with interest. If you and your predicament at school are exactly as you have described then rest assured you are not "over-reacting" as some posts have suggested. Nor is this just a small, harmless "learning experience" as other posts have implied. Quite the opposite. Your civil rights are being violated.