Serious question for all you trans people

[Stephenmass]

When it comes to sports, does a MTF have an advantage over "most" of the other ladies in the sport? On the flip side, does a FTM have a disadvantage? I don't mean this to sound sexist and ask the question in earnest. Something I always wondered.

 

[deleted6505551]

I'll likely get flamed for this but I think in most examples yes. Males who transition to female have, in most cases, a distinct advantage. I say most cases as the ones in the news are people who have gone through or are well into puberty. All the estradiol in the world isn't changing skeletal development, height and parts of our muscular structures. And in the case of the Olympics the allowable testosterone levels are far higher than we aim for. I can't speak to NCAA or other organizations as I have not done any research there.

I expect that anyone going through transitioning early enough would lack these advantages. Should pre-pubescent kids enter into HRT is another can of worms I'd rather not open. But it's my opinion that is where the idea of a level "playing field" might really happen.

I wish I could say otherwise but as badly as I want narrower shoulders, a smaller ribcage and and nice thin arms it simply isn't happening. I've reached the point where my boobs are bigger than my girlfriends and my junk is shrinking nicely. But I'm still easily twice her strength, faster when I care to run and throw like a boy.

 

[Stephenmass]

I'll likely get flamed for this but I think in most examples yes. Males who transition to female have, in most cases, a distinct advantage. I say most cases as the ones in the news are people who have gone through or are well into puberty. All the estradiol in the world isn't changing skeletal development, height and parts of our muscular structures. And in the case of the Olympics the allowable testosterone levels are far higher than we aim for. I can't speak to NCAA or other organizations as I have not done any research there.

I expect that anyone going through transitioning early enough would lack these advantages. Should pre-pubescent kids enter into HRT is another can of worms I'd rather not open. But it's my opinion that is where the idea of a level "playing field" might really happen.

I wish I could say otherwise but as badly as I want narrower shoulders, a smaller ribcage and and nice thin arms it simply isn't happening. I've reached the point where my boobs are bigger than my girlfriends and my junk is shrinking nicely. But I'm still easily twice her strength, faster when I care to run and throw like a boy.

Thanks for replying. It was asked in earnest and not to flame anyone at all. It just makes sense to me. I'd never judge anyone either regarding this topic as I've never walked in their shoes and who am I to judge. I'm not even sure about early transitioning as at this point in time there is so much involved, hormones, testosterone, etc., and my bet is a lot goes on that is not medically known during development besides the obvious. Thanks for your honest answer.

 

[RainbowBeach]

It depends on the age and whether puberty was entered to and at what time, and how long the woman is on estrogen. You put a 10-year-old boy on a team of adult women and I doubt he'd be as strong as they are, but once he's 18, it's a different story. A lot of these female athletes are quite strong - they aren't going to even be defeated by gay men.... Gender and sex is very complex. Sometimes femininity is found more in men - and sometimes masculinity in women, and the trans issue is a whole different story. Trans women range from being very masculine to be very feminine (even hyper-feminine).

btw, I'm 36 MTF, but I couldn't even compete against a middle school girl's sports team, I'd be easily defeated. I'm just too weak. I have no upper body strength, I can barely lift anything. I have no athletic abilities whatsoever. Estrogen didn't take away any muscle mass because there was no muscle mass there to even begin with - I have enormous breasts and having these breasts means I move my body differently than I did before.

As for the case in UPenn with Lia Thomas, I don't know the details enough to really judge. If she had been on the men's team for the first 3 years of college, I don't think one would have the time to lose the male advantage to get onto the women's team for the last year of college.... she also transitioned after male puberty had already occurred, so that would mean she's still got the musculature of a man, and I say that fully respecting her and affirming her as female undeniably, but she still has the bone structure and the mass of a man - i also think it's worth pointing out that a lot of those female Olympic athletes are incredibly buff and muscular themselves. She would have an advantage I imagine against some of them, but not all of them. These women in sports are very strong.

 

[Stephenmass]

I missed this answer Vvioro and I appreciate you answering. Ignorance on my part not knowing obviously, so I ask questions, in earnest trying to learn. Thank you.

 

[Bittydrew]

I can say at my age 65 that I'm weaker than before hrt .......muscle mass is less ....

 

[JSS.JLk]

When it comes to sports, does a MTF have an advantage over "most" of the other ladies in the sport? On the flip side, does a FTM have a disadvantage? I don't mean this to sound sexist and ask the question in earnest. Something I always wondered.

I say this, "To play with/against natural born females, the Trans Woman/Man should be ion Hormone Therapy for a minimum of 2.5 yrs. This way, all of their hormones, strength and attitudes would be tapered-off to a more leveled-off state where they are now more similar to the natural borns."

 

[Stephenmass]

I say this, "To play with/against natural born females, the Trans Woman/Man should be ion Hormone Therapy for a minimum of 2.5 yrs. This way, all of their hormones, strength and attitudes would be tapered-off to a more leveled-off state where they are now more similar to the natural borns."

Thank you for your answer. Having not walked in any of your shoes per se, simply trying to understand more about this topic is all.

 

[JSS.JLk]

Thank you for your answer. Having not walked in any of your shoes per se, simply trying to understand more about this topic is all.

Well, the more answers coming from different views that you get, the better

 

[dante33]

I say this, "To play with/against natural born females, the Trans Woman/Man should be ion Hormone Therapy for a minimum of 2.5 yrs. This way, all of their hormones, strength and attitudes would be tapered-off to a more leveled-off state where they are now more similar to the natural borns."

The 2.5 years is not a catch-all solution. Many studies have pointed out that hormonal levels change relatively fast after HRT. Strenght and muscle mass do decrease too (1), but the overall strength and bone density of trans women is still above cis-women even after 3 years (2), with one limited study arguing that it could take up to 15 years for all differences to truly dissapear (3).

(1) doi: 10.1210/clinem/dgz247 Change in grip strength in trans people and its association with lean body mass and bone density
(2) How does hormone transition in transgender women change body composition, muscle strength and haemoglobin? Systematic review with a focus on the implications for sport participation | British Journal of Sports Medicine
(3) Muscle Strength in Transgender Women After Long-Term Hormone Therapy: A Cross-Sectional Study

 

[JSS.JLk]

The 2.5 years is not a catch-all solution. Many studies have pointed out that hormonal levels change relatively fast after HRT. Strenght and muscle mass do decrease too (1), but the overall strength and bone density of trans women is still above cis-women even after 3 years (2), with one limited study arguing that it could take up to 15 years for all differences to truly dissapear (3).

(1) doi: 10.1210/clinem/dgz247 Change in grip strength in trans people and its association with lean body mass and bone density
(2) How does hormone transition in transgender women change body composition, muscle strength and haemoglobin? Systematic review with a focus on the implications for sport participation | British Journal of Sports Medicine
(3) Muscle Strength in Transgender Women After Long-Term Hormone Therapy: A Cross-Sectional Study

Like I said earlier, "The more answers you get from different people, the better."

So, that is YOUR answer and I had stated mine.

Moving right along now.

Haaaaa hahaha.

 

[cherryboom66]

The obvious answer has been and always will be - trans women are not and have not, ever, dominated sport.

 

[samanthaDee]

It depends on what body you start with and how long you have been in transition and to what length you completed your transition.

Nowadays anyone saying that they are a trans woman can enlist themselves as a woman with most sport organizations.
Self-certification ruined a lot.
It also burnt bridges for trans people.

I transitioned in 2012-2013 when you still had to get 6 months of appointments with a psych before you could start hormones.
You needed to live as a woman for a minimum of 1 year before you would be refered for surgery.
Changing your name and gender marker were much harder than nowadays.
Transitioning meant making sacrifices.

I had to take out a loan to pay for bottom surgery overseas because I didn't want to have my surgery in Canada.

In those days not getting GRS was not even an option.
GRS was assumed to be the end-point of a transition.
Nowadays you even have people identifying as trans without taking hormones or even having laser.
Some only change their Facebook profile and call it a day.
Transition meant something 10 to 20 years ago.

Since the 2017s and up things started changing.

Back to the question:
If you have been a top sporter prior to transitioning and you start your transition after puberty, you will at least retain an advantage over cis women for many years (if you are a trans woman).
Hormones work slowly and testosterone blockers do not work as well as just removing the source.

I'm on hormones since July 2013 and at this point my body has exactly the same proportions as your average cis woman but I was always attracted to men and was seen as a twink prior to my transition.
My friends were always women.
My socialization was very female-influenced from a very young age.

I do think it works differently if you have lived a very male-typical life and had a very male-typical upbringing prior to transitioning.

I do think there are significant differences between straight trans women and gay trans women.

I personally believe in the HSTS - AGP distinction within the pool of trans women.

But that is very controversial to discuss nowadays.