Sex change op/ what is it that makes you a woman?

Discussion in 'Women's Issues' started by zaza, Jul 21, 2007.

  1. zaza

    zaza New Member

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    A friend of mine recently accompanied a friend of hers to Tailand so they could have a male to female sex change op. I don`t know this person, and am not likely to meet them. My friend has told me about them and their trip, and a couple of issues that arrose that got me thinking.

    My friends friend is obviously taking this whole thing very seriously. They have read etiquate(sp) books, is obviously trying hard to act womanly. They started to criticise my friend for her lack of female etiquate(SP), and she replied that the way she sat/acted/responded to others did not affect her womanliness.

    The next issue that arrose when they were preparing for surgery, and the surgeon asked how deep a vagina was needed and recomended 4-5 inches. My friend thought this seemed small, her friend asked her how deep she was, which she wasn`t really able to answer. Which got me thinking men know exactly how big/how they compare to others, we have no idea.

    So my questions to you are;

    What is it that makes you a woman? Is it how you were born, how you were brought up,how you look, or whatever?
    Are there things you do to make you more of a woman?
    Have you any idea of how long/deep your vagina is and how this compares to others?
     
  2. happyfeet

    happyfeet New Member

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    I suppose my boobs, vagina, and uterus. I know the uterus is a big indicator for me. I honestly don't understand how someone can claim to be a woman if she's never had a uterus. So...I guess my answer is: How you were born. Altho, I do know a few trannies and I completely accept and respect them as women. I mean, who am I to tell someone else who or what she is?

    My vagina's depth depends on my cycle. I think mine is pretty deep (generally) b/c I like longer cock than my friends. LOL Doctors generally have a difficult time reaching my cervix. I'm not going to measure it, tho.
     
  3. ManlyBanisters

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    Sorry to be boring - but my XX chromosomes, combined with adulthood, make me a woman. That's all there is to it.

    Anything beyond than is 'femininity' and is a much more grey area.

    I don't believe post-op transsexuals (born male) do become women - or indeed that those born female become men. I don't understand transsexualism - it bothers me that people can be so unhappy that they feel a need to mutilate their bodies in that way. I'm not trying to be offensive, I just don't get why the unhapiness can only be addresses with such drastic hormonal and surgical treatements, Maybe someone can enlighten me. But that's slightly OT, sorry.

    I don't think you can be 'more of a woman' because that would imply you can be 'less of a woman' - a flawed concept. All people, of both sexes, are so complex and such a tangled sum of their genes and experiences that I don't think you can define 'womanhood/femininity' or 'manhood/masculinity' other than in terms that relate to cultural trends and tendancies.
     
  4. D_Kay_Sarah_Sarah

    D_Kay_Sarah_Sarah Account Disabled

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    Firstly from what i understand taking these Thailand trips for cheap sugeory is amazingly risky.. so WOW

    I think being a woman is more about emotion and compassion rather than anything physical. Sure having boobs and a vagina make you physically female but a 'woman' seems to have a more gentle, nuturing, caring way about her, moreso then the average male anyway.
     
  5. whatireallywant

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    As for what makes me a woman, I say it is my anatomy. My interests and personality have always been traditionally male, and when I was younger I actually considered FtM sex change. I am attracted to men sexually though. And I think that as culturally, people become more accepting of people who are nontraditional for their birth gender, there may (notice I didn't say "will" but "may") be fewer transsexuals. I am ok with being a woman now but am NOT ok with sexism or rigidly deterministic gender roles!

    I do try to look more "feminine" as defined by culture (my body type is kind of "mannish" though, unfortunately...I'm hoping to remedy that surgically if I have the money - mainly through liposuction on the midsection/waist). I used to be tomboyish in my clothing styles too, but I am trying to attract men, so I want to wear clothes that men will find attractive.

    I have a rather deep vagina. I was told by one guy I was with, that I was the "deepest" woman he had ever been with who had not given birth, and deeper than some who had. (and this was a guy who had been with a lot of women, too...) I actually like this, as it makes my fantasy somewhat within the realm of possibility...although the down side is that I often can't feel smaller guys.
     
  6. whatireallywant

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    Someone who actually agrees with ME!!! Although I do understand transsexuals. I no longer wish I was male but there was a long time in which I did. But I also think a lot of that had to do with the rigid sexism of the community where I grew up. When I can pursue my interests without getting a lot of flak because "women aren't supposed to do that", then I'm fine. And if I can find someone who loves me for who I am, and not try to change me into a traditional woman (it won't work, believe me!), then life would be very good...

    But the last paragraph...this is a hot button with me and I rarely find someone who agrees with me, but you appear to. I hope people can break out of rigid cultural expectations and be able to be themselves. I think there will actually be fewer transsexuals if this happens, and also most people will be happier.
     
  7. Love-it

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    My wifes parents wanted a boy for their second child and were disappointed that they had another girl. Lack of parental caring, emotional, and not respecting her as a person who happened to be a girl combined with wanting to please daddy and parental attitudes about the value of women in society confused the hell out of my wife. She has been fighting her upbringing for 59 years and is finally coming to grips with many issues. She lost her father last year and maybe after her mother passes away she will get to know some freedom.
     
  8. whatireallywant

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    That's really sad. Unfortunately, I think that happens in a lot of families. I have even heard of one extreme case where the family had two children, a boy and a girl, and the girl was older, but she was totally ignored when the boy was born. After that, everything the boy did was perfect, and everything the girl did was wrong. She wound up killing herself.

    In a perfect world, boys and girls would both be treated as worthy human beings, by everyone around them.

    In my case, I was just truly weird. I am an only child, and my parents wanted a girl. But all my interests were traditionally male. My parents however, were open minded about me pursuing the interests I have (unlike the other people I knew in the area!), and I got to play with both toys thought of as for girls and for boys. The fact that I vastly preferred the so-called "boys' toys", well, it just happened. They were more fun, couldn't explain it really. In school everything fell apart. The teachers deemed me a behavior problem, and sent me to behavior-modification camp and everything, partly to get me to be more of what was considered "appropriate" for a girl, but also because of (possible) ADHD. I also grew up in an area that was very rigid with gender roles (my parents were the exception to this, but they didn't fit in in the area, either), and had a lot of problems getting along with people because of this. And then there was the intelligence issue. I was way ahead of the other kids in my class and none of the teachers knew what to do with me. I was especially advanced in reading, but the other stuff was up there too. My favorite subject was always science (which I later found out was yet another traditionally male interest).

    As an adult it has been easier, but I still don't like the social expectations. I'd prefer if I could just be me, and not have to worry so much that people will think I'm really strange for being the way I am. I'd prefer to look more "womanly" though, oddly enough. I think it's because I want to be seen as sexy and attractive by men, since I'm attracted to them. But it's easier now because I can pursue most of my interests without being looked at like some kind of freak.
     
  9. SpoiledPrincess

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    What makes you a woman is that other people perceive you as a woman, having all the right bits like tits and arse helps but people tend to treat you on how they perceive you, we see ourselves mirrored in other people's eyes. Sadly some post op transexuals are never going to be treated as women because they just don't look like women.
    If you're a woman you can cuss, spit, scratch imaginary bollocks and people are still going to perceive you as a woman. If I see someone dressed as a woman I try to treat them as a woman because I take that as an obvious sign that that's how they want to be treated.
     
  10. ManlyBanisters

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    I do agree with you on this. We're all just people - our soft and dangly bits should not define us. I hope we will evolve socially and I think we will, eventually - or to put it somewhat more acerbically:

    In a thousand years, there will be no men and women, just wankers, and that's fine by me. - Renton, Trainspotting :biggrin1:
     
  11. Not_Punny

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    I dunno. From the photo's I've seen, some of them look pretty good.

    If we're not happy with our car or our house, we can change it. Why not our physical form or gender?

    It if makes them happy, who are we to criticize?
     
  12. Principessa

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  13. B_big dirigible

    B_big dirigible New Member

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    I don't know. That definition would make the late Albert Schweitzer a woman, wouldn't it?
     
  14. ManlyBanisters

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    *snap*

    I think you over-stretched your point and broke it there, big. Couldn't think of anything witty you could actually back up this time, huh?
     
  15. B_dxjnorto

    B_dxjnorto New Member

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    Wow. I wouldn't wish gender confusion on anyone. I have read stories that make me wonder if they get the psychological workup they need. Many of you have pointed to factors independent of gender. I read of a guy who was so unhappy with his father that he would do anything to not be like him. After he had a male to female surgery, he realized this and went back to living as a man, sans penis and balls of course. Ouch!
     
  16. rob_just_rob

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    My understanding is that legally, in this jurisdiction, there are three tests to determine whether an individual is male or female:

    1. DNA/chromosome test
    2. Genitalia (scrutiny), and
    3. Self identification.

    2 out of 3 is enough. So if a male decides to have gender reassignment surgery and subsequently identifies herself as female, chromosomes and DNA no longer enter into it.
     
  17. B_denis11

    B_denis11 New Member

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    Does anyone have any pre-op and post-op photos?
     
  18. Love-it

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    It seems like it may be easier today, nobody cares how they look anymore, I say that with a bit of humor, we didn't grow up with tattoos, ear plugs, PA's, studs everywhere, body modifications, etc. All of that has changed and we still expect women to look like women and men to look like men. Well that doesn't work so well any more.

    I think that the biggest struggle that any one will have is to be an individual standing on their own, and the hardest way to do it is without accessories. Accessories don't really make the woman or the man, they detract from who you are. When you are comfortable with who you are all of the issues go away.

    Its not as easy as it sounds.
     
  19. Transman

    Transman New Member

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    People that are having a hard time understanding transpeople should read the book "Trans Forming Families". Its a book with many interviews of people close to transpeople (like mothers, fathers, siblings, significant others, childeren etc.) You can see how the "straight" world (meaning people without gender issues) feel and have come to understand and accept transpeople in their lives. Fucking awesome book, its what made my mom understand when I came out to her as trans.

    Anyway, being transgendered to me means I was born with female external anatomy but a male brain. I never once saw myself as a girl once in the 26 years before I started hormone therapy & had surgery. Its hard to explain but imagine if you as a feminine woman were born with a penis. You would hate it and feel like it didnt belong on you. Thats always how I felt about my "girl parts". Also, passing as a man, I always felt like I needed to be on guard in case someone found out about my female parts and I never felt 100% safe or comfortable.

    Before you go through any surgery or hormone therapy you go to a therapist to make sure you are mentally stable and arent going to sue anyone in the future. They want to make sure you know what youre getting into cause obviously this is a big deal and not some spontaneous decision. And of course it is all external changing your body with surgery but you wouldnt believe the liberation I felt afterwards. The whole time I was torn between trying to make myself feel ok in a body I hated or trying something which I had no clue as to what the outcome would be. Transpeople have a lot of figurative nuts to go through with transitioning in a very gender binary culture. Anyway, in a perfect world no one would need surgery and there would be about 50+ different genders but the world (especially the Western world isnt like that...yet and maybe it wont ever be.)

    As long as you try to empathize with others (and not judge) if you cant understand this, its a step in the right direction.

    Btw, every state has a different set of requirements for the transpeople to be acknowledged in the new gender. All of my legal documents are now male (in PA you ned to have your name legally changed & "irreversible sex reassignment surgery".)
     
  20. Nelly Gay

    Nelly Gay New Member

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    Amen !
     
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