Sexism - a cacophony of silence from the Mod team.

[ManlyBanisters]

Moderators, Admins - I did try to initiate a PM discussion on this but you have ignored me. It has been 36 hours since I contacted you all. That's more than enough time for someone to get back to me.

Members,

Two days ago I had an interaction with another member (who has since disabled his account) in this thread. The poster was aggressive in what I believe to be a sexist manner, I reported him for that. Other members, it seems, also reported his posts in that thread for the same reasons.

A little while, but fairly soon, after my report I received a PM from the Mod team saying the user was getting a heads up for "sexist content and harassment". Indeed the Moderator Actions thread now says:

Michaeldi23 - heads up, sexist content and harassment

However, Michaeldi23 (as was) published the PM the Mod team sent to him. It didn't mention sexism or sexist content at all:

So I've been reported got this message today -

Dear Michaelki23,
You have been reported multiple times today for your contributions in this thread and mostly for this post; Are big pussy flaps better then small
While on the surface this is not actionable it certainly is pushing the envelope to what accepted behavior is at LPSG. We are contacting you and asking that you read the sites rules as we feel you are just shy of threatening and harassing another member which is against the site rules.
We allow a fairly free reign of self expression here we do ask that you conduct yourself in an adult professional manner on the board, chat in in private and visitor messages.
If you have any questions or issues please don't hesitate to contact myself or any of the other moderators or administrators of the site.
On behalf of the moderators,
ny

(Note: I don't publish PMs sent to me, but this was not sent to me, it was sent to Michaeldi23 (as was) and he published it. I'm merely linking to where it was published and has been allowed to remain public.)

About 36 hours ago I PMed all mods and admins this message:

According to what Michaeldi23 published as his warning PM from the Mods (see below) there was no mention of sexism.

Who is lying here? Either he is lying to the membership and was indeed warned for sexism OR [name of the mod who PMed me], on behalf of the mods, is lying to me about Michaeldi23 being warned for 'sexist content'.

I have included all mods and admins on this PM and I'm very interested in all your answers.

I have, as yet, received not one single reply.

Mods/admins, what is the reason behind telling me and the membership that this user was advised against being sexist when nothing in the 'head ups' sent to the user mentioned sexist content at all? Were you trying to appease me? Appease the membership (especially those of us who believe (well, know) that sexism is not considered an equal crime to homophobia and racism here)? Did the mod team, the consensus of the team that is, consider the reported posts sexist at all? If so, why not tell the offending member so? If not, why list 'sexist content' as behaviour?

Some loaded questions now: Is the consensus among the mods/admins that female posters on LPSG should expect and tolerate sexism? Is the consensus among the mods/admins that sexism is a less serious form of bigotry that racism and/or homophobia?

What do you, the members of LPSG, think about all of this? Is the consensus among members that the female posters should suck it up, shut the fuck up and get our tits out? Should we expect bigotry and tolerate it? Should the mod team, perhaps, be less afraid of telling sexists they are being sexist and show some consistency in what they SAY they are doing and what they are ACTUALLY doing? If sexism is condoned at LPSG would it just be better to be honest about that?

 

[The Dragon]

I to have wondered at the disparity between the member's "warning PM" from the mods as was posted by himself ( the deactivated member) and what was "officially" posted in the Moderator actions thread.

One party is lying.
How convenient that one party can no longer reply.
Isn't it.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

Honestly MB, a single instance in which you perceive a minor inconsistency does not mean that hate speech (of any kind) is tolerated at LPSG.

I'm not even sure how you make the leap from this to a site-wide policy issue.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

Where did I make any statement to that effect, hilaire?

I see mainly questions in my post. What do you see?

ETA: Minor inconsistency? Minor? Telling the whole membership that a poster was warned against sexist content but not saying one single word about sexism at all to that poster is something that you consider minor?

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

Where did I make any statement to that effect, hilaire?

I see mainly questions in my post. What do you see?

Many of the questions themselves are about site policy issues no?

 

[ManlyBanisters]

Many of the questions themselves are about site policy issues no?

Yes - and they are questions. Questions.

Also - see edit above.

 

[Hoss]

[
A little while, but fairly soon, after my report I received a PM from the Mod team saying the user was getting a heads up for "sexist content and harassment". Indeed the Moderator Actions thread now says:



However, Michaeldi23 (as was) published the PM the Mod team sent to him. It didn't mention sexism or sexist content at all:



(Note: I don't publish PMs sent to me, but this was not sent to me, it was sent to Michaeldi23 (as was) and he published it. I'm merely linking to where it was published and has been allowed to remain public.)

About 36 hours ago I PMed all mods and admins this message:



I have, as yet, received not one single reply.

Mods/admins, what is the reason behind telling me and the membership that this user was advised against being sexist when nothing in the 'head ups' sent to the user mentioned sexist content at all? Were you trying to appease me? Appease the membership (especially those of us who believe (well, know) that sexism is not considered an equal crime to homophobia and racism here)? Did the mod team, the consensus of the team that is, consider the reported posts sexist at all? If so, why not tell the offending member so? If not, why list 'sexist content' as behaviour?

Some loaded questions now: Is the consensus among the mods/admins that female posters on LPSG should expect and tolerate sexism? Is the consensus among the mods/admins that sexism is a less serious form of bigotry that racism and/or homophobia?

What do you, the members of LPSG, think about all of this? Is the consensus among members that the female posters should suck it up, shut the fuck up and get our tits out? Should we expect bigotry and tolerate it? Should the mod team, perhaps, be less afraid of telling sexists they are being sexist and show some consistency in what they SAY they are doing and what they are ACTUALLY doing? If sexism is condoned at LPSG would it just be better to be honest about that?

To the first point keep in mind the thread which Michael himself began (I have it linked below in a reply to The Dragon, that he says there were "warnings" plural so he may not have listed everything.

Point second, there should always be consistency and where it might appear at times there isn't must wonder if there are situations where several P.M.s are sent back and forth......either between a member and mods. or a member going after several members.

Point third, the women should not have to suck it up. Nobody should nor should they be expected to tolerate or accept bigotry or any other disgusting behavior.

I to have wondered at the disparity between the member's "warning PM" from the mods as was posted by himself ( the deactivated member) and what was "officially" posted in the Moderator actions thread.

One party is lying.
How convenient that one party can no longer reply.
Isn't it.

To the matter of Michaedi23 being unable to respond, it was his choice to end his association with LPSG which is why he is now shown as Elwald Harribum, a name he got when he closed his account.

http://www.lpsg.org/261016-goodbye-to-lpsg.html


: I am deleting my account. I have been falsely accused of threatening a member - ManlyBanisters - and have been sent warnings my the moderator. Just want to warn a members about this chic. Be careful and don't disagree with her if you want to stay on the site. This site used to be really nice and a place to share opinions. Things have changed and its time to move on. Been fun over the years and I have met allot of great people. Goodbye
:
As far as we can tell Michael wasn't forced to leave, he could have stuck around and then been able to say what he wanted to on this matter. He chose to leave.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

ETA: Minor inconsistency? Minor? Telling the whole membership that a poster was warned against sexist content but not saying one single word about sexism at all to that poster is something that you consider minor?

Well I'll allow whichever Mod who wrote the PM explain the wording of the PM in question themselves if they wish to do so. It would be inappropriate for me to comment any further. I've said my piece.

 

[luka82]

Point third, the women should not have to suck it up. Nobody should nor should they be expected to tolerate or accept bigotry or any other disgusting behavior.

This.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

Well I'll let the Mod who wrote the PM explain the wording of the PM in question themselves if they wish to do so. It would be inappropriate for me to comment any further. I've said my piece.

I've intentionally not made this personally about the mod who wrote to me because the PM was on behalf of the team. It would be unfair to single that mod out because that mod was not letting me know on the side, not writing me a personal note, but simply informing me of the team's decision. Also, the Mod Actions thread, where the team's official decisions and actions are publish also contains the phrase 'sexist content'. For which the member, I'll remind you, appears not to have been chided at all. So the Mod Actions thread contains the lie, too.

Finally, there is the PM from nudeyorker to Michaeldi23 (as was). nudie clearly states that he is mailing on the behalf of the team, that he is being a mouth piece - so there is absolutely no point trying to make it personal against one mod. That would be unfair. This is a team thing. If I was being unfair and trying to attack nudie or Pecker over this I would be told that, I'm sure.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

I've intentionally not made this personally about the mod who wrote to me because the PM was on behalf of the team. It would be unfair to single that mod out because that mod was not letting me know on the side, not writing me a personal note, but simply informing me of the team's decision. Also, the Mod Actions thread, where the team's official decisions and actions are publish also contains the phrase 'sexist content'. For which the member, I'll remind you, appears not to have been chided at all. So the Mod Actions thread contains the lie, too.

Finally, there is the PM from nudeyorker to Michaeldi23 (as was). nudie clearly states that he is mailing on the behalf of the team, that he is being a mouth piece - so there is absolutely no point trying to make it personal against one mod. That would be unfair. This is a team thing. If I was being unfair and trying to attack nudie or Pecker over this I would be told that, I'm sure.

I'm not saying you are making this personal or singling out another Mod (nor am I for that matter). I am simply saying that I do not feel it is appropriate for me to continue to comment on the substance of this issue.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

I'm not saying you are making this personal or singling out another Mod (nor am I for that matter). I am simply saying that I do not feel it is appropriate for me to continue to comment on the substance of this issue.

Shame.

 

[AlteredEgo]

I await with curiosity the input of more moderators.

 

[spoon]

i'm not sure what to think yet.

hey mb, take a deep breath, let it out and repeat. relax, you are angry at the moment which is understandable.

 

[D_Elvetta Boombooms]

sorry to hear you're twice upset, but give it time and i'm sure everything will become clear.

it's not like mods do this for a living or anything. I mean, we all goof now an then, and i'm sure they try to do their best.

 

[Intrigue]

i'm not sure what to think yet.

hey mb, take a deep breath, let it out and repeat. relax, you are angry at the moment which is understandable.

I am not quite sure why you are asking someone to take a deep breath or to relax. I realize your intention but I don't understand the need. She hasn't been vehement or "yelling" as much as one can in text format. So why the need to tell her to calm down? She seems rational, logical and ready for input. Maybe a tad impassioned in her original post, but I think that may be my inner voice putting a tone on the words I'm reading.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

Baaabydoll - you're missing the point somewhat. This is not about me.

Update - I have now received a missive from a mod (who posted more than once since I sent my PM to all mods) saying that the title of the heads up PM sent to Michaeldi23 contained the phrase 'sexist content'. What would have been so difficult about letting me know that when I asked in the private message? I ask you!

My points about the apparent treatment of sexist content as less serious than other forms of bigotry stands. I know many of the female posters here feel that we are not accorded the same respect as the men and that it is let pass time and time again. It does seem a step in the right direction that the member in question was called on his shit this time - I'm still of the opinion had the user worded a similar statement against a black member with the instruction that the black member should 'service' him he would receive more than a heads up. In fact, I know that to be the case - Hazelgod was temp banned for a week (or 2?, 1 I think) for telling Vinylboy to 'get your shoe shine kit' (or words to that effect). Disparity? I think so.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

i'm not sure what to think yet.

hey mb, take a deep breath, let it out and repeat. relax, you are angry at the moment which is understandable.

Didn't even see this til I's response. I'm not angry about Michaeldi23. I couldn't give a fuck about one person. I'm annoyed about being treated differently because I'm female, put out about being afforded less respect, irritated that it isn't taken seriously here - or leastways not as seriously as I think it should be. The only thing I'm currently angry about is you being a dim git and reading only one dimension of this.

Newsflash for people who think I'm pissed off that one bloke told me to 'service' him 48 hours ago. I was never pissed off about that - It amused me that he somehow thought that would get to me. What does annoy me is that people are allowed to talk to others like that here in some circumstances and not in others. See my point above on HG's ban for the shoe shine comment to VB.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

Baaabydoll - you're missing the point somewhat. This is not about me.

Update - I have now received a missive from a mod (who posted more than once since I sent my PM to all mods) saying that the title of the heads up PM sent to Michaeldi23 contained the phrase 'sexist content'. What would have been so difficult about letting me know that when I asked in the private message? I ask you!

Well we did let you know what he'd been HUd for. In the Mod actions thread. That you chose to view that evidence as of similar value to Michaeldi23's blatant strop-fest isn't our fault. You thought the angry, bitter words of someone you reported for sexism were of equal value to ours.

My points about the apparent treatment of sexist content as less serious than other forms of bigotry stands. I know many of the female posters here feel that we are not accorded the same respect as the men and that it is let pass time and time again. It does seem a step in the right direction that the member in question was called on his shit this time - I'm still of the opinion had the user worded a similar statement against a black member with the instruction that the black member should 'service' him he would receive more than a heads up. In fact, I know that to be the case - Hazelgod was temp banned for a week (or 2?, 1 I think) for telling Vinylboy to 'get your show shine kit' (or words to that effect). Disparity? I think so.

As you may recall, we have a process, it starts with an HU for first offence, moves to a warning for subsequent offences, and more serious measures from there on.

Except in exceptional and/or specific kinds of cases (which HG's wasn't) we try to stick to that.



As to your views on how we moderate sexism, all I can say is that I would not be a part of a Moderating team which did not apply the same standards to reports of sexism as it did to any other form of prejudice.

Does that mean that female member's experience of the site is identical to male member's experience? I don't know, I'm not a woman.

Do I think this is an evolving process? Yes, and I think the situation with regard to sexism is somewhat different now than it used to be. is it perfect? No, but you'll excuse us perfection I hope.

We appreciate it when people report instances of prejudice and hate speech and encourage members to report such instances when they see them.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

Well we did let you know what he'd been HUd for. In the Mod actions thread. That you chose to view that evidence as of similar value to Michaeldi23's blatant strop-fest isn't our fault. You thought the angry, bitter words of someone you reported for sexism were of equal value to ours.

Now who is stropping?

I did not think "the angry, bitter words of someone you reported for sexism were of equal value to" those of the mod team. I was going by what he published of what was said to him by the mod team - I don't give a hoot what spin he put on it. Had the Mod in the know bothered his fucking arse, while online and posting here anyway, to reply to my PM yesterday then I would have had a better understanding of what was said by the mod team.

As you may recall, we have a process, it starts with an HU for first offence, moves to a warning for subsequent offences, and more serious measures from there on.

Except in exceptional cases (which HG's wasn't) we try to stick to that.

Are you telling me that HG made repeated racist remarks before the banning? Could I have the links to those posts, please?

As to your views on how we moderate sexism, all I can say is that I would not be a part of a Moderating team which did not apply the same standards to reports of sexism as it did to any other form of prejudice.

Does that mean that female member's experience of the site is identical to male member's experience? I don't know, I'm not a woman.

Do I think this is an evolving process? Yes, and I think the situation with regard to sexism is somewhat different now than it used to be. is it perfect? No, but you'll excuse us perfection I hope.

We appreciate it when people report instances of prejudice and hate speech and encourage members to report such instances when they see them.

I do report - all the time. I rarely get a response. Are things changing? You'll see above that I have already stated it appears they are? Do I think it is enough yet? No. Do I think sexism is a 'less serious crime' here at LPSG than racism or homophobia? I have made it clear that I do. Do I think you personally, hilaire, see things that way? I know that you do not - I also know you only have one vote. Do I think it is policy? I don't know, that's why I'm asking.

What would you have me do? Not agitate for the changes I think need to be made?