Sexism - a cacophony of silence from the Mod team.

B_Nicodemous

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OK, thanks for the clarification. I should have followed my own advice and been more careful in my reading of the material.
hey no worries.

I just was not going to let a misunderstanding snowball into something that it wasn't. Becuase then what would have happened? I would have gotten pissed and said something in a snit, you would have been further offended (rightfully so, in this case) and the acquaintanceship we have would have gone the way of our friendship, only this time it would have started with a difference of use over one word. And THAT would have sucked.

So we cool then?:redface:
 

dolfette

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dear people i like,

stop fighting! i'm pulling a sad little confused face here. picture a 6y/o watching mommy and daddy argue? that's the face!

yours,
me
 

dolfette

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http://www.lpsg.org/260634-racism-on-iloveinterracial-com.html

^^this thread. the OP makes some obviously racist comments, implies that black=low IQ=poverty, etc. i was really shocked that nothing was done.

i'm not posting this as another dig at the mods. i just want to illustrate that sometimes other forms of bigotry are allowed to slide. it's not just sexism.

the mods are just people. each has their own ideas. some people would prefer more policing, some people would prefer more free speech, all of them have to work together.

...that said, i do agree that misogyny is the most acceptable form of bigotry on the site.
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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http://www.lpsg.org/260634-racism-on-iloveinterracial-com.html

^^this thread. the OP makes some obviously racist comments, implies that black=low IQ=poverty, etc. i was really shocked that nothing was done.

i'm not posting this as another dig at the mods. i just want to illustrate that sometimes other forms of bigotry are allowed to slide. it's not just sexism.

the mods are just people. each has their own ideas. some people would prefer more policing, some people would prefer more free speech, all of them have to work together.

...that said, i do agree that misogyny is the most acceptable form of bigotry on the site.




That report is still under discussion atm, I think recently we've had some problems with being able to deal with reports as swiftly as we might like, people's schedules have been really packed :wink:
 

AlteredEgo

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How this whole 'Michaeldi23 business' is important to the general discussion of sexism on the site goes over my head to be honest. I understand what you're saying, but I don't think that one example should be concentrated on (by anyone). More broadly, in my opinion, there are sexist remarks made here all the time, and to some extent I think they are considered 'less important'. Let me explain what I mean by that (before it is misunderstood). Sometimes people say things without realising they are speaking to a person of the opposite sex (or mean no harm at all etc.), they may say a 'sexist remark' purely as an insult - which isn't right, but there's no sexist intent. To others this could be viewed as sexist, but if the moderators find the person meant no real offence, (in my mind) it may not be considered 'ban-worthy'. People often use more generalised, originally sexist remarks, as plain old insults or slang. (I could call another man a 'bitch', for example.) Anyway, my point is that in such cases, sexism can be viewed as 'less important' or at least harder to identify. If I say, "..all black people are scum.." there is no doubt that there's racist intent and I'd expect to be banned. But, "..suck my dick.." doesn't automatically mean I'm sexist. It's awkward, and I fear I've not explained myself well. But, I completely agree that people should never feel the need to 'put-up' with hatred and, when it happens, people are correct to respond negatively and report it. It's hard to find a balanced judgement between good and bad - everyone has different boundaries and are offended by different things. From my perspective, that's the hardest job for a moderator.
A long time ago on this site, people would say racist things without meaning any harm. It pissed some of us off, but it wasn't taken particularly seriously until it was pointed out for long enough, and there were enough moderators who could see it and cared. At this point, people just know better, and when they do not, they are tossed out on their tushes. You seem to think that sexism is the only bigotry that can be expressed vaguely, the only kind of bigotry that can be harder to see by those not targeted. I disagree.

I agree with those who say that this current crop of moderators are the best (as a team) we have had. I find that if members report a post/poster en masse, the team follows up on the reports. Despite their schedules, I usually do hear back from them. When I do not, I do see updates in the Moderator Actions thread. However, while sexism is still a big problem here (directed at men and women alike, if more often at women) I'm largely satisfied with the way it has been treated in the last few months. I think we are almost (but still not quite) at the point where misogyny and sexism are treated exactly like other forms of hatred here.

I would still love to hear what more moderators think.
 

ManofThunder

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A long time ago on this site, people would say racist things without meaning any harm. It pissed some of us off, but it wasn't taken particularly seriously until it was pointed out for long enough, and there were enough moderators who could see it and cared. At this point, people just know better, and when they do not, they are tossed out on their tushes. You seem to think that sexism is the only bigotry that can be expressed vaguely, the only kind of bigotry that can be harder to see by those not targeted. I disagree.

I agree with those who say that this current crop of moderators are the best (as a team) we have had. I find that if members report a post/poster en masse, the team follows up on the reports. Despite their schedules, I usually do hear back from them. When I do not, I do see updates in the Moderator Actions thread. However, while sexism is still a big problem here (directed at men and women alike, if more often at women) I'm largely satisfied with the way it has been treated in the last few months. I think we are almost (but still not quite) at the point where misogyny and sexism are treated exactly like other forms of hatred here.

I would still love to hear what more moderators think.
I should have explained myself more clearly, I apologise - hopefully I'll clear things up this time. Well, I do think many forms of bigotry can be expressed vaguely and consequently be harder to identify - I agree. Your example from the past of LPSG is interesting, but it's not (in itself) what I meant. You can hide anything if you try and some people won't see it. But, with something like racism, as soon as it is noticed (or pointed out by the members) it's dealt with harshly. My point, in rough terms, is that sexism and some 'sexist remarks' are considered 'less important' as they have evolved into regular insults and slang. As I said before, 'bitch' (for example) could be interpreted in many ways (as could other potentially sexist comments). The 'N-word' (for example) couldn't. Yes, you could argue that someone was 'being funny', but that word still holds a more concentrated meaning; a stigma is attached. In comparison and with additional shades of grey to consider, sexism can not only be harder to identify - but also harder to deal with. How should you punish someone for using, what was (in their mind) slang? In terms of other bigotry, people already know not to use certain words and phrases, even in jest. Sexism is, I'm afraid, viewed as a lesser of many evils.

I'm not suggesting that the moderators or anyone else deliberately let sexism pass - of course they don't. But, their hands are tied to some degree. Until everyone feels the instinctive horror of the 'N-word' where deliberate sexism (and it's many connotations) is concerned, it will be viewed as 'less important' and remain a debatable issue. I'll give a final example in the form of a potential porn-title, "Black bitch pounded until she screams." What's offensive? Automatically, people will focus on 'black' and the reference to inflicted pain. The 'bitch' part would soon be forgotten as something sexist, and included as part of the racism allegation.
 

ManofThunder

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To answer your question; people. People in general - society, I suppose. In my experience, sexism is viewed as more of a niche (if you see what I mean). It's not alone in that 'lesser' category. Ageism is the same. People have discriminated against me based purely on age. You're either 'too young' or 'too old' to understand or be able to properly respond to something. I reported it (in real life) and nothing happened - my 'petty' claim wasn't worth the trouble. Meanwhile, claims of racism shook the work-place. Racism and sexual orientation discrimination are at the top of the priority list. Let me clarify that I don't believe there are lesser-types of bigotry, I'm merely saying that some view certain bigotry as 'lesser'. I'm not suggesting anything is completely ignored, but (because of this 'lesser' attitude held by some) it's not dealt with as swiftly. Also, to some people, 'sexism' means discrimination against women - this can lead to reverse discrimination against men, adding a further complication. For example, faux-feminists or 'man-haters' (as I've heard them so fondly called) are themselves sexist and give the wrong impression. This can split people into two distinct groups once more, meaning no progress. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but sexism is not as black and white as racism, for example. To identify (or identify with) sexism, ageism and other potentially 'less-obvious' types of bigotry - people sometimes have to think and read between the lines. Thinking is too much for some people, the problem needs to jump-up and bite them on the arse for anything to get done about it. We haven't been conditioned against sexism to the same extent as racism, there still isn't that semi-instinctive fear of being branded a racist (or racist sympathiser) involved.
MOT, I understood you. I disagree that it is a lesser evil, whether some choose to think of it that way or not.
Again, let me clarify that I don't believe it is a 'lesser' evil. But, there are people in positions of (at least some) power who do think this way. As I've said in my reply to Ms Banisters, there isn't that 'fear' involved and, for some people, fear is needed to move forward. I'm only trying to add as many dimensions as possible to the discussion.
 

Drifterwood

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Is there truly a way of objectifying any person, or group of people, positively?

Great question, Pig.

Should we accept the cheesy "I love women" even when we know that women range from total cunts to saints? Even some saints aren't that attractive. Sorry Therese.

So no. Positive objectification either covers up the unsavoury or places an unrealistic expectation.

Take me as I am. Much better.
 

Kotchanski

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I'll start by admitting 2 things:

1. There is nothing I would like more than to avoid this thread
2. I have some very conflicting views on the subject, due to my various roles on the site, my upbringing and my choices in later life.

With that in mind, I'd ask that anyone I piss off (and I promise there'll be at least one, if not all!) please ask questions to clarify before virtually shooting me for what is to come.

Sexism does not effect me. It never has, and I very much doubt it ever will. I am female, my childhood was predominantly spent around males, every role I have ever filled work wise has always been in areas not just dominated by men, but almost exclusively filled by men, and outside of work, I have made the choice to fill the roles traditionally almost exclusively filled by women.

Comments that most (I assume) women consider sexist, don't flag on my radar unless someone else tells me they should because they are things I have always been around, and have considered normal and acceptable. To a large degree, these comments shaped my decisions growing up. Having said that, we have the report system so that those of us who do not see these things as easily of others, can have them shoved in our faces by those who do, and for this I am grateful because once reported, I may not feel personally aggrieved (for want of a better word) by these comments, I am able to put myself in the shoes of slightly more normal women, and understand why they would be.

I have been a member of this site for a little over 5 years now, and all but 10 months of that has been spent as either a moderator or administrator.

Now I can't say for sure if the sexism here has become worse over the last 5 years, but I am 100% sure that the number of complaints about it has increased a great deal. I don't know why, is it because we've become more stringent in other areas, making sexism appear more prevalent than it was previously? Is it more prevalent that it was previously? if not more prevalent, are the comments simply of a worse degree than before? are the women simply more sensitive? Is it a combination of all or some of the above? We're never going to know the answers to those questions. We each have different experiences here, have been here for different lengths of times, and have varying degrees of tolerance. All we really know is that things changed.

I do agree that something needs to be done, and as many of you already know, I worked with Rob a few months ago to put a statement in place as a guide for both the membership and the mod team when it came to sexism. Not perfect, isn't going to keep everyone happy and there will always be grey areas, but if nothing else, a step in the right direction, and a direction we aim to continue moving in.

The problem has many sides to it though...

Ignoring that we all have different levels we'll put up with, we have members on both sides who use sexism as a form of humour, meant harmlessly for the most part, but at times almost impossible to distinguish from intentional attempts to throw mud at a particular group. Where do we draw the line?

If I make a joke about men in general, meant harmlessly on my part, but seen by some as blatant sexism, how many need to report me for it before my joke is to be taken seriously by the team?

Are we to assume that sticking a :tongue: :smile: :biggrin1: or :wink: at the end means it was not meant to be taken as a serious statement? or is still over ridden once we reach a certain number of reports?

Maybe we should take all reports as validation that sexism was intended and issue our sanctions, but then are we to remove said sanctions if the member in question tells us it was meant as a joke? or stick to our guns and tell them their poor sense of humour is none of our concern?

I've focused on female based sexism purely because the thread was started by a woman, and I've been party to discussions on that specific topic recently. It does however happen both ways...

Men referring to all women as cunts or bitches (make no mistake, just because both terms apply to me, does not mean they apply to the rest of our fine ladies)

Men making all manner of comments about how we should all be hurt by their huge cocks and damn well like it, because that's what we're here for.

Women making reference to the genital mutilation of men for humour purposes.

(Three examples picked at random from the top of my head, reported over the last 6months to a year)

There is no easy answer to this issue, and certainly no answer that will keep everyone happy, but I am always happy to discuss this issue at length in an attempt to reach some form of understanding, be it the topic at large, or smaller incidents where people feel too much, or not enough was done (don't flood me for the next two weeks though... school holidays make me very slow to reply)

I think a good first step, for those on all sides of this discussion would be to elevate yourselves above the level of those with whom you take issue.

If you happen to have some lower opinion of the opposite sex, just keep it to yourself and think about what you're about to say and how it is going to be seen by others.

If you've taken issue with something someone has said, sexist or not, don't go jumping straight onto the name calling train, you only serve to give them grounds to further attack you.

If you see something sexist, report it and don't bite.

I know, it sounds like I'm trying to speak to you all like you're children, I'm honestly not though... All of the above serves to make things clearer for the moderator team. One bad comment in a thread stands out for what it is far easier than three pages of back and forth where each person appears to add fuel to the fire. We act faster when we don't have to wade through pages to find out what happened and who else did what, and there are far fewer casualties when others don't have to be spoken to in order to keep things fair.
 

vince

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Bigotry, weather it is racism, sexism, ageism, nationalism or whateverism, is often written in-between the lines of what we read and hear. Code words and phrases are used in such a way that the writer cannot be called on it. They always have a way of brushing off an accusation of bigotry with a laugh and a request to "prove it". Which, by the nature of the vague way they express it, is impossible to do. We have had a few members, some of whom are still active, who are past masters of this game and for me personally it is frustrating that they are still here, even if it is on the periphery.


Sexism in all it's forms has been part of human culture for millennia and general awareness of it and action to end it is not much more than century old. We need to double down to end it, no doubt about it. I hope we can do so without losing our sense of humour about relations between women and men.


It's easy to stop the Micheals among us from posting their blatant bigotry. Not so easy is to recognize the shades of it in ourselves and our friends. The hardest thing is to really convince others to change what's in their hearts. People have died attempting to do that.


As mod here, you have to be fair and you have to be openminded and you must have a sense of when someone is BS'ing you. Sometimes you need to look at things in a narrow context, sometimes a broad context, but most of the time in both at the same time.


So this guy writes something sexist in a real cunty way. Was he provoked or baited? What's his history? was he just having a bad day? Is that even an excuse for what he wrote? Is it sexist to use the word "cunty"?? Depends on the context, and everyone's perception of that is different. Sometimes radically so.


With all the variables and rules and personalities here, the mods can never please everyone. I mean, just forget about that.. So we try to do the right thing from our collective point of view and many times that means "No action".

This is beginning to sound like a dozen other mod justification posts I've read before. So I am shutting up now before I get stupid. Peace.
 
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vince

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I know, it sounds like I'm trying to speak to you all like you're children, I'm honestly not though... All of the above serves to make things clearer for the moderator team. One bad comment in a thread stands out for what it is far easier than three pages of back and forth where each person appears to add fuel to the fire. We act faster when we don't have to wade through pages to find out what happened and who else did what, and there are far fewer casualties when others don't have to be spoken to in order to keep things fair.
Well put. Simply don't play with or feed the trolls! Report them.
 

Drifterwood

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Well put. Simply don't play with or feed the trolls! Report them.

I don't fully agree with this. It is the new mantra, but in the past on this site, people took on trolls, and more importantly, people with undesirable views head on and with few holds barred.

I have to say that I liked this. It is an adult site and if you wanted to spout your shit, you needed to be prepared to defend yourself and when you couldn't in 99.99% of the cases, you went down in flames.

Several rsepected members have suffered bans and temp bans for doing this where perhaps they have not sufficiently moderated their language or have been deemed to have been too aggressive.

The issue which MB is driving home and is receiving a lot of support over from many of the women, is that there seems to be a bit of a pecking order going on. Racism, antisemitism and homophobia, do not pass go, do not collect $200, misogyny mmh well, not on but there might be a reasonable explanation, slinging mud at Muslims yeehaw...........

I think that there are some important distinctions to be made. Having a rant about a general trait in a group is not hate speak IMO, inheriting a cultural prejudice is not a hate crime, we all have these, some wish to expunge them, some don't but some wish to promote them. These guys are the real problem.
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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I think that there are some important distinctions to be made. Having a rant about a general trait in a group is not hate speak IMO, inheriting a cultural prejudice is not a hate crime, we all have these, some wish to expunge them, some don't but some wish to promote them. These guys are the real problem.


Firstly Drifter if you want to continue to bang the Why was VB banned?-drum there's a thread for that, use it.

Secondly the above quote is evidence of an attitude which sees cultural prejudice as acceptable. It isn't.

And having a rant about a general trait in a group is actually hate speech, like it or not. If you post a rant about how Women are all liars, that's hate speech. If you post a rant that Muslims all beat their wives that is hate speech. If you post a rant about Gays being promiscuous, that is hate speech.

These are all examples of exactly what you're describing. Like it or not.
 
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