"Sexual orientation" vs "gender"

[mikeyinbrooklyn]

Sexuality relates to one's libidinal desires and actions. The other side to which you refer (I don't use the word "gender" to describe people; it is a grammatical category) is more cultural identity.

Someone is a homosexual if they have desire getting it on with the same sex. They are straight if they are seek the opposite sex. Bisexuals have4 at least some degree of sexual attraction to both. There are legitmately straight people who have sex with same sex, in porn or for money or they were really drunk, etc. And there are gay people who have sex with the opposite sex to conform to social mores. Sexual behavior usually follows attraction, but not quite always. The attraction determines the orientation.

Culturaly, there are more masculine norms and more feminine norms. While it may be true that many gay people are further along towards the other end of the scale (feminine for gay men; masculine for lesbians) than the heterosexual population, these cultural indicators are separate thing entirely from orientation. You could be a gay man with masculine identifying characteristics just as you could be a straight man with more feminine tendencies.

Sexual orientation and cultural behavior are independent of one another entirely. Sleep with the sex that you are attracted to, and act naturally outside the bedroom, regardless of whether anyone judges your mannerisms and sex partners to be incongruous.

 

[B_henry miller]

We're not seeing eye-to-eye so maybe we should just stop corresponding. I don't have a narrow view of anything. It's not narrow for me to point out that a gay guy who wears makeup, is very effeminate in manner, and calls himself and other guys "girl," is not "masculine." Okay. You can consider a guy like that masculine if you want; I don't, and neither does most of society. I'm not making this up and it's not indicative of narrow views on my part. And, by the way, most gay and bisexual people I meet think that I'm straight -- based on my manner. Not that there's anything right or wrong, good or bad, better or worse, about any of this.

I'm not objectifying guys by compiling a database of links to pictures they themselves post of themselves. My favorite folders of guys on this forum are the folders where the guy is presented as an overall human being, a man with a life outside of his dick, which is why I made the "full body" thread. For example, Kevennine: http://www.lpsg.org/members/kevinnine.html

I love Kevinnine's folder because looking at his folder you get a sense of his overall life, you get a sense of him being a human being and a man, a man with a sexuality and a big dick certainly, but overall a human being and a man.

And, by the way, I looked at your folder, buffaloboy, and you're beautiful. Great dick on you, and great full body picture in there. Awesome. :smile:

I think the issues might not be the same but they are certainly connected in as much as they both revolve around perceptions of masculinity - yours and society's.

Some people have a very narrow conception of what constitutes 'real' masculinity and from what I can make out from your posts, you appear to subscribe to this notion (even though you may not always have been quite so masculine yourself). So when you've been stopped by bouncers upon entering a gay club, these are people who have the self same narrow definition of masculinity that you aspire to and attempt to emulate, but that's only one way of being masculine.

As for the gay community 'objectifying' men, isn't that something of which you're particularly guilty?:

Young Stud Thread
http://www.lpsg.org/112944-the-young-stud-thread.html

Full-Body nude studs on LPSG
http://www.lpsg.org/264553-full-body...stud-list.html

Hmmmm....

 

[buffaloboy]

We're not seeing eye-to-eye so maybe we should just stop corresponding. I don't have a narrow view of anything. It's not narrow for me to point out that a gay guy who wears makeup, is very effeminate in manner, and calls himself and other guys "girl," is not "masculine."

My point is, is that that's not all gay men are by any means. You seem to only to be able to see those who you consider to be effeminate, when the reality is that gay men are a lot more diverse than that. And, for that matter, so are straight men, and they are not all 'butch alpha males' by any means.

Given this thread, your summer blog post and other comments you've made on these forums, you do come across as rather preoccupied with masculinity - your own and other peoples, or lack thereof. The truth of the matter is, we're all a mix of the masculine and the feminine so perhaps it would be more beneficial if you spent some time just learning to feel comfortable in your own skin -n in all of your multifaceted glory - and then you'll be more likely to simply accept people for what they are.

And, by the way, I looked at your folder, buffaloboy, and you're beautiful. Great dick on you, and great full body picture in there. Awesome. :smile:

And now I'm feeling objectified.

 

[B_henry miller]

I can hardly be objectifying you by referencing a picture you yourself posted.

Given your posts on this thread -- where you continually say that the gay men you hang around with are masculine -- I can judge that you are relatively preoccupied with masculinity.

 

[Bbucko]

Henry Miller:

I note that on your profile, you wrote a blog about this very subject back in July. It seems to be an issues that troubles you somewhat and that causes you internal conflict:
http://www.lpsg.org/blogs/henry+miller/gender-vs-orientation-7688/

''I'll just admit that I used to think that being gay or bisexual meant that a guy was also feminine and sort of wanted to be a woman. This is yet another hurdle I had to overcome in coming to terms with my orientation. But I find that I actually am usually attracted to very masculine guys, and lately I am very much on the masculine side. I guess it sort of turns my previous ideas on their head. In other words, I'm bisexual because I love being male, NOT because I want to be female.''

http://www.lpsg.org/blogs/henry+miller/gender-vs-orientation-7688/

This speaks of how at a conscious or subconscious level, you believe, or at least have done in the past, that to be attracted to another man is somehow feminine, and you also hint at not always being so masculine yourself (''lately, I am very much on the masculine side''). 'Lately'? So what were you before?

The issues surrounding gender and orientation seem to trouble you somewhat which you then project outwards on to gay men you perceive to be feminine. Your sense of inferiority about your own masculinity is at the root of your internal conflict, which in your own mind becomes a 'deficiency' in other self identified gay men.

This is such a recurring theme for the OP that the phrase beating a dead horse becomes an understatement. As a result, I no longer take part and would respectfully suggest you do the same. Obstinate, circular reasoning is a maddening thing to attempt to refute, and in this case will bear no fruit (pun intended).

 

[B_henry miller]

PS: And though we go round and round repeating ourselves for two pages, we have yet to discuss the topic at hand: that in there are gay men who have such a feminine energy that they are virtually women in men's bodies.

What you keep doing is trying to question my motivations -- asking WHY I am asking this question. But that's not really the issue. For all you know, I could be researching for a college paper. That doesn't matter, and it's kind of none of your business. I have a question to ask and a discussion I'd like to have, and you don't think the topic is worth discussing, so please stop responding. You're wasting everyone's time, including your own.

And I can't help but think I struck too raw a nerve when I said that gay culture, and in particular gay advertising, objectifies men in the same way that mainstream culture and advertising objectifies women. Please stop being disingenous and saying that I'm objectifying people by complimenting pictures they themselves upload of themselves. You're just trying to distract from the topic I raise, because it apparently strikes a raw chord with you and you don't like it.

Just, like, go participate in another thread or something....

 

[B_henry miller]

Good. Thank you. Please don't participate in any thread I start if you don't actually have something beneficial to contribute. And please encourage others to do (or not do) the same. The only thing that is circular in discussions I start is that I end up having to restate what I said originally, because people misrepresent what I say -- and then they question my motives (which is very disrespectful and attacking on their part). It's not my fault some people can't have a conversation or discussion.

Other people have commented on this thread and have stuck to the topic and haven't questioned my motives.

I can ask the same question over and over if I want, in blogs, threads, newspapers, written in the sky by a jet, if I want. That's my right. I can do it until the end of time. If you don't like it -- just please continue to do what you do: don't respond.

Now, again, what was the topic? Oh, yes: the difference between "sexual orientation" and "gender" and how said difference may result in current concepts such as "men who have sex with men" but who do not refer to themselves as "gay."

This is such a recurring theme for the OP that the phrase beating a dead horse becomes an understatement. As a result, I no longer take part and would respectfully suggest you do the same. Obstinate, circular reasoning is a maddening thing to attempt to refute, and in this case will bear no fruit (pun intended).

 

[MickeyLee]

Mr. Miller - it's like asking why is the sky plaid?

the sky isn't plaid, so there is no point to discussing why is the sky plaid. the only real question to answer is "why do you think the sky is plaid?"

on topic: orientation and gender ain't anymore connected than butterflies and bonbons.

 

[B_henry miller]

Questioning is a good thing. Question everything. Including authority. And question every label others will put on you. Question, question, question. Look for and find your answers. They're available. (And the sky is the color that it is for various scientific reasons, much apart from my own perception of the sky or desire to know why it is the color it is.)

Thanks for at least offering an on-topic statement in you last sentence.

Mr. Miller - it's like asking why is the sky plaid?

the sky isn't plaid, so there is no point to discussing why is the sky plaid. the only real question to answer is "why do you think the sky is plaid?"

on topic: orientation and gender ain't anymore connected than butterflies and bonbons.

 

[buffaloboy]

I can hardly be objectifying you by referencing a picture you yourself posted.

Given your posts on this thread -- where you continually say that the gay men you hang around with are masculine -- I can judge that you are relatively preoccupied with masculinity.

I haven't said that the gay men I hang around with are masculine, but I did refute your idea of them having lots of 'feminine energy'.

Not just in this discussion, but elsewhere, you perpetuate an idea that the majority of gay men are basically 'screaming queens' snapping their fingers and saying 'guurlfriend' all the time. But I don't need to be obsessed with masculinity, as you manifestly are, to know that that's not the way that I or my friends behave. Why don't just come out and say you think most gay men are 'limp wristed' and then we can all see the extent of your internalised homophobia?

If you focus on the person rather than the extent to which they are enacting socially constructed gender roles to your arbitrary standards, you'll get more out of them and I'm sure your encounters will be a lot more satisfactory than they have been to date.

 

[poultrygeist]

I'll comment on the Mae West comment. I think her attempt (at least with that quote) was to help stop homophobia and was no doubt an honest attempt, but may have been more damaging in the long run. The problem is that based on that quote, some homophobic men may then view gay men as being inferior by comparison to straight men. It's unfortunate that gay men are seen as being inferior athletes, soldiers or whatnot just because of sexual preference. Real life can be different at least at times. It feels neither strange or unnatural to me to enjoy full contact martial arts against other men. Other gay and bi men in the military share my view that there is NO sexual thought, hesitation, submissive behavior, etc when fighting in the field. As a bisexual man even if Mae West were to suggest that I was half gay, I would take serious issue with that as my life, my identity and my expression of self might suggest otherwise. I think a lot of gay and bi men would feel the same.

 

[B_henry miller]

I've tried for three pages now to explain to you what I am actually saying. And you've tried for three pages now to tell me what I am actually saying. I think it's just best to call it good at this point and move on.

I will end our correspondence on this topic by noting that I do not in any way have any internalized homphobia. One thing you refuse to acknowlege is that I have never said there is anything wrong with men who are indeed effeminate, limp wristed, or who even dress like women. I attempt to analyze and understand, not condemn.

If you suggest that I consider I may have internalized homophobia, maybe I can suggest that you ask yourself what it is about this question regarding masculinity that upsets you so.

I haven't said that the gay men I hang around with are masculine, but I did refute your idea of them having lots of 'feminine energy'.

Not just in this discussion, but elsewhere, you perpetuate an idea that the majority of gay men are basically 'screaming queens' snapping their fingers and saying 'guurlfriend' all the time. But I don't need to be obsessed with masculinity, as you manifestly are, to know that that's not the way that I or my friends behave. Why don't just come out and say you think most gay men are 'limp wristed' and then we can all see the extent of your internalised homophobia?

If you focus on the person rather than the extent to which they are enacting socially constructed gender roles to your arbitrary standards, you'll get more out of them and I'm sure your encounters will be a lot more satisfactory than they have been to date.

 

[B_henry miller]

I agree. I think her statement was meant as help, but statements like that cause damage, I think.

The point I think I'm starting to understand -- and the point I'm trying to make in this thread -- is that I think the very concept of "gay" is outdated and may cause more damage than not. This is why I'm starting to understand why "men who have sex with men" don't want to be called "gay." It's not that they deny their sexual activity; they admit to it right there in what they call themselves. It's that they don't want to be called "gay" -- because because larger society has the perception that gay men are women in men's bodies.

I wonder if maybe it's possible that some "gay" men internalize that message, that gay men are women in men's bodies -- and then act accordingly. I sometimes wonder if gay and bisexual men are conditioned away from being masculine when, perhaps, deep down inside, they'd like to be masculine.

And this brings me back to the title of this thread. Maybe the issue isn't so much "sexual orientation" but "gender."

I'll comment on the Mae West comment. I think her attempt (at least with that quote) was to help stop homophobia and was no doubt an honest attempt, but may have been more damaging in the long run. The problem is that based on that quote, some homophobic men may then view gay men as being inferior by comparison to straight men. It's unfortunate that gay men are seen as being inferior athletes, soldiers or whatnot just because of sexual preference. Real life can be different at least at times. It feels neither strange or unnatural to me to enjoy full contact martial arts against other men. Other gay and bi men in the military share my view that there is NO sexual thought, hesitation, submissive behavior, etc when fighting in the field. As a bisexual man even if Mae West were to suggest that I was half gay, I would take serious issue with that as my life, my identity and my expression of self might suggest otherwise. I think a lot of gay and bi men would feel the same.

 

[rayray]

What i get about this talk going back and forth and actually getting nowhere..It seems to me that Mr. Miller is a bi-sexual man who describers himself as masculine who does not like being associated with men that are in fact act like girlfriends.. The typical man as society see it does not act these sisy girls.
He has to become more comfortable in his own skin..He does not like to be labeled in a group of people that basically disgusts and threatens the way he feels about his own sexuality..The gay community are full of many types of people who are diverse and loud and proud..I think the fem man disgusts him and does not to be associated with a punch of Queers.

 

[B_henry miller]

I need to note that I have never used the word "disgust." Effeminate men don't disgust me. However, I cannot relate to gay and/or bisexual men when they refer to each other as "girl," wear makeup, etc.

I wonder if some gay and bisexual guys go to extremes to make a point. For analogy, I've often wondered why drag queens, and sometimes transgendered men who become women, go to the extreme of being dripping goddesses a la Marilyn Monroe. There are many women out there who aren't so over-the-top feminine. I wonder if a lot of it is just angst or something.

What i get about this talk going back and forth and actually getting nowhere..It seems to me that Mr. Miller is a bi-sexual man who describers himself as masculine who does not like being associated with men that are in fact act like girlfriends.. The typical man as society see it does not act these sisy girls.
He has to become more comfortable in his own skin..He does not like to be labeled in a group of people that basically disgusts and threatens the way he feels about his own sexuality..The gay community are full of many types of people who are diverse and loud and proud..I think the fem man disgusts him and does not to be associated with a punch of Queers.

 

[buffaloboy]

I wonder if some gay and bisexual guys go to extremes to make a point. For analogy, I've often wondered why drag queens, and sometimes transgendered men who become women, go to the extreme of being dripping goddesses a la Marilyn Monroe. I wonder if a lot of it is just angst or something. There are many women out there who aren't so over-the-top feminine.

Equally, there are many gay men who aren't effeminate and straight men who aren't extremely masculine.

This is known as 'diversity'.

Embrace it.

 

[B_henry miller]

Equally, there are many gay men who aren't effeminate and straight men who aren't extremely masculine.

This is known as 'diversity'.

Embrace it.

Please stop trying to therapy me. :/

 

[flame boy]

*Snip*
I wonder if some gay and bisexual guys go to extremes to make a point. For analogy, I've often wondered why drag queens, and sometimes transgendered men who become women, go to the extreme of being dripping goddesses a la Marilyn Monroe. There are many women out there who aren't so over-the-top feminine. I wonder if a lot of it is just angst or something.

Drag queens and trans people are not comparable. Drag is for entertainment purposes whereas transexuals are people living day to day lives. Why is drag over the top? That's the whole point, it's parody - go big or go home. Drag performers should be removed from the discussion as they are not in the same category.

Transgendered people (of both sexes) tend to favour heightened feminine or masculine appearances as it is something they long for. If you were born in a male body and wanted to be a woman, you're not simply going to put on some sweatpants and a sports bra - you want to appear as much like a woman as possible. This typically includes things such as longer hair, breasts, cleavage and what have you. The same applies with with women who become men, but in reverse.

I don't believe for a second any of this has to do with angst. I think its simply down to people embracing who they really are identifying with the gender they believe they were born to be.

Sexual orientation and gender are like chalk and cheese. There is no correlation.

 

[B_Nia88]

I wonder if some gay and bisexual guys go to extremes to make a point. For analogy, I've often wondered why drag queens, and sometimes transgendered men who become women, go to the extreme of being dripping goddesses a la Marilyn Monroe. There are many women out there who aren't so over-the-top feminine. I wonder if a lot of it is just angst or something.

Please educate yourself on trans people and the difference between trans men and trans women. As well as the very different topic of Drag queens. As a trans woman I found your posy offensive.

 

[B_henry miller]

Please educate yourself on trans people and the difference between trans men and trans women. As well as the very different topic of Drag queens. As a trans woman I found your posy offensive.

1. I'm not bigoted against transexuals, and I don't believe in bigotry of any kind.

2. Every transexual I've ever met (male-to-female) has opted for an over-the-top and extreme example of femininity.

3. The topic of this thread is not about transexuals or drag queens, so I don't feel the need to educate myself any further on that topic at the moment.

4. I am fully aware that there are differences between Drag queens and male-to-female transexuals. But one thing I've noted about both groups is that they tend to gravitate toward an extreme and over-the-top example of femininity. (And, of course, both groups are born biologically "male" and yet opt to wear women's clothing; though I understand -- and please don't misrepresent -- that for drag queens the donning of women's clothes and assuming a female identity is for entertainment purposes, and for transexuals it become their permanent life and identity. But even at this, you can go further and point out that some drag queens actually dress as women all of their life, the most famous example I can think of is The Lady Chablis: The Lady Chablis )

5. I didn't demonstrate bigotry nor lack of education about transexuals by saying that I wonder why they often go for the extreme example of femininity. This, in my experience, is absolutely true and non-biased. However, I do not represent myself as a scientific survey.