"Sexual orientation" vs "gender"

[B_Nia88]

Transgendered men don't become women and lady Chablis is a trams woman.

here is a list of trans women from all walks of life

Transsexual Women's Successes, by Lynn Conway. PHOTO GALLERY PAGE 1

 

[B_henry miller]

Drag queens and trans people are not comparable. Drag is for entertainment purposes whereas transexuals are people living day to day lives. Why is drag over the top? That's the whole point, it's parody - go big or go home. Drag performers should be removed from the discussion as they are not in the same category.

As I mention above, The Lady Chablis refers to herself as "A Drag Queen," and yet she LIVES as a woman: The Lady Chablis

Transgendered people (of both sexes) tend to favour heightened feminine or masculine appearances as it is something they long for. If you were born in a male body and wanted to be a woman, you're not simply going to put on some sweatpants and a sports bra - you want to appear as much like a woman as possible. This typically includes things such as longer hair, breasts, cleavage and what have you. The same applies with with women who become men, but in reverse.

But is this implying that women who DO wear sweatpants and sports bras aren't women or aren't feminine? I'm sure there are a lot of women in sports bras and sweatpants who would take issue with this statement. Such women would probably also make the argument that they can dress this way because they are "real" women (born female, with the XX chromosome, experience a period once a month, give birth, express milk, etc.). I'm not saying that this is or isn't my opinion. I'm saying that, generally speaking, people who are born female and in female bodies and who have the XX chromosome and who can give birth, etc., do not consider male-to-females to be "real" women. (Let's not pretend that we don't all know that male-to-female transexuals aren't able to give birth. That's not bigotry on my part. That's science.)

Sexual orientation and gender are like chalk and cheese. There is no correlation.

I agree. But I think the general consensus in society is that gay men are effeminate; and I think that many gay men therefore feel obligated to behave in an effeminate manner. (And I think this issue is related to the fact that male-to-female transexuals go for an over-the-top femininity, apparently unaware that women born biologically female grow up to experience all variety of appearance, from tomboy to feminine, etc.)

 

[554279]

People are people. They change over time. I don't think anyone is permanently, absolutely and indefinitely hard wired for anything from cradle to grave. Masculinity or lack of on the male side can be generated from any number of factors, whether gay, straight or bisexual. Transgender is a very complex issue that I wouldn't consider in the equation. I believe the best course of interacting with people is to accept them the way they are and how they wish to be accepted.

I think we should just accept all people the way they are at any given time without the associated labels and basically live and let live (not just with other people but with ourselves as well).

 

[B_henry miller]

Transgendered men don't become women and lady Chablis is a trams woman.

here is a list of trans women from all walks of life

Transsexual Women's Successes, by Lynn Conway. PHOTO GALLERY PAGE 1

I've heard interviews with her where she refers to herself as "a drag queen" or "female impersonator," because she really likes women. However, she has not had the operation to remove the male genitalia, which is why on her site she makes the joke about "dark chocolate with nuts."

Transgendered men don't become women? So what is the term for men who become women, then?

 

[B_henry miller]

I agree that we should accept everyone. And I don't like labels either. But unfortunately they exist, and sometimes they DO make life easier.

People are people. They change over time. I don't think anyone is permanently, absolutely and indefinitely hard wired for anything from cradle to grave. Masculinity or lack of on the male side can be generated from any number of factors, whether gay, straight or bisexual. Transgender is a very complex issue that I wouldn't consider in the equation. I believe the best course of interacting with people is to accept them the way they are and how they wish to be accepted.

I think we should just accept all people the way they are at any given time without the associated labels and basically live and let live (not just with other people but with ourselves as well).

 

[B_Nia88]

I've heard interviews with her where she refers to herself as "a drag queen" or "female impersonator," because she really likes women. However, she has not had the operation to remove the male genitalia, which is why on her site she makes the joke about "dark chocolate with nuts."

Transgendered men don't become women? So what is the term for men who become women, then?

The term is transgendered woman. for mtf trans women. There are many trans women that are lesbians as gender and sexuality are 2 different things.

 

[B_henry miller]

So, I had the term "transgender" correct? But what I had wrong was that the destination gender is what is mentioned? For example, a man who becomes a woman is "a transgendered woman" and NOT "a transgendered man"? Thanks.

And, yes, I know about people who change genders to then be with the same gender. A friend of my lesbian sister did that. She became a man -- that is, became a gay man. I don't understand it. Can't say that I understand it. But, hey, it just IS, I suppose.

 

[B_henry miller]

PS: Regarding the term "transgender," I asked because I thought maybe the term had changed. I know that the term "transvestite," for example, isn't used anymore, and I've heard that it is even now offensive to some people. So much for Rocky Horror Picture Show. lol

 

[B_Nia88]

transvestite usually refers to straight men who dress in womens underwear/clothes because it is their sexual fetish.

 

[B_henry miller]

transvestite usually refers to straight men who dress in womens underwear/clothes because it is their sexual fetish.

See what I mean. Sexuality is complicated. The Lady Chablis once said that people like her -- who dress as women most of the time -- are just the tip of the iceberg. She said there are men who are only weekend transvestited, and these men are "straight." Yet another thing I don't understand. But I know of a, rather respected and influential, man who is heterosexual and married to a woman but who himself dresses as a woman. It's his lifestyle. He's even had breast implants. Yet he is male (doesn't want to be referred to as a woman) and claims to be heterosexual. Wow.

 

[B_Nia88]

feel free to ask me any questions sweetheart

 

[B_henry miller]

ah, thanks. lol. What is the difference between "transexual" and "transgendered"? thanks.

 

[B_Nia88]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Transgender refers to the spectrum of gender ambiguity – the various ways in which our gendered behavior, activities, dress and identities do not match up neatly with the assumption that there are two biological categories – ‘male’ and ‘female,

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] transexual (also spelled “transsexual&#8221 as “someone who identifies as male or female but whose gender identity conflicts with their biological sex – that is, they were born male or have XY chromosomes, but experience themselves as female.”

However, many transsexuals including myself will use the term transgender as it doesn't focus on the "sexual" aspect of transsexuals.
[/FONT]

 

[Ed69]

Back away from the pipe Henry,do it slow!Don't hurt yourself!

 

[buffaloboy]

Please stop trying to therapy me. :/

This is nothing like therapy, but if you had some, you might not be quite so hung up on these issues around sexual orientation, gender, masculinity etc.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

I have indeed met homosexual men who are masculine. But they are vastly in the minority from what I've met.

I'm not saying I know all gay and bisexual men and can describe every one of them. I'm describing what I HAVE seen and experiences. It's what's called a conversation. Welcome to it. :smile:

I agree with your premise... tho folks are gonna tend to be hypersensitive about what you are suggesting ( hypersensitivity, BTW is a feminine aspect )


I think, however, that your 'experience' is obviously skewed... like most people, you NOTICE feminized gay men, because their behavior makes them visible in ordinary social situations.

When people in general think of "gay" men, this is the stereotype they envision, and the cues they look for, because this kind of behavior is actually a very accurate indicator of someone being gay, and is the most observable.
Similarly, people envision lesbians as being butch... because you can see when someone's conduct is not gender normative.

However, masculine gay men are indistinguishable from hetero males in ordinary interactions... and so you will tend to not recognize as many of them as being gay as there actually are.
Given the still extant prejudice toward homosexuality, and the pressure on "bi" men to declare themselves gay, you must consider that the majority of men who have sex with men do not present themselves as being that way.

Of the men having sex with men, I would venture to say that the percentage who are openly gay, or display feminine affect, is probably less that 30% of the total.


It has always struck me as odd that men who don't go for women, would chose to go for men who act like women... can you really call that homosexuality? They like male equipment with female behavior?
In this view, only masculine men who go for other masculine men could really be considered homosexual on both gender and physiology.

There are also a large contingent of men who identify as hetero... and yet have sex with other men, because they ONLY engage in oral or anal sex, but eschew kissing, cuddling, affections, etc with other men...
i.e. they consider the sexual act as separate from loving and caring attraction.
Are they, as goes the popular mythos, really gay but in denial? Or, are they correct in considering straight or gay as referring to who you "love" more than how you get off?

I think the correct answer is that human beings have a wide spectrum of innate proclivities... shaped and affected by genetic, epigenetic, and developmental variations. And that this inborn 'set point' is further shaped and modified by very early experiences that can widen, or narrow our specific sexualities.

There is a political agenda behind the preference to lump everyone into the Either/Or categories of gay and straight. The religious fanatics need to know who to hate, the LGBT community wants to be less of a minority for social justice, the average guy does not want to be treated as lesser than his buddies because of his secret desires...

I think it would be far better if the general assumption was that EVERYONE is bisexual to some degree... and that those whose focus is exclusively one thing or another are actually the minority.

Madison Violet performing Men who love women who love men - YouTube

 

[B_henry miller]

Back away from the pipe Henry,do it slow!Don't hurt yourself!

i'm an intellectual, not a pot head.

 

[B_henry miller]

This is nothing like therapy, but if you had some, you might not be quite so hung up on these issues around sexual orientation, gender, masculinity etc.

your posts are a waste of space on this thread now. i think that what you are doing now could be considered harassment and is verging on cyber-bullying. I'm reporting your post and putting you on ignore. thank you.

 

[B_henry miller]

I agree. One thing that gets irritating is that whenever anyone on this forum refers to "feminine men," people automatically assume that you are discriminating against them and saying "it's wrong to be a feminine man." Before long, the whole discussion is rail-roaded and completely off topic, and before long I have to start defending my reputation by reiterating that I'm not a bigot. Meanwhile, I never said there is anything wrong with being an effeminate man.

But I'm just going to be more pro-active about it. I'm reporting posts that are harassing and putting people on ignore. And I started this thread with a note to the moderators saying I intend this to be a thoughtful discussion and asking them to please delete it if it gets too ugly.

Now, what was the point I was raising? Oh, yes: trying to understand the differentiation between "sexual orientation" and "gender" and why some people don't like the term "gay" and prefer terms like "men who have sex with men."

If these are sensitive topics for some people and they don't like it, there is a simple way to react: don't participate in the discussion.

Anyway, I'll be back to respond to the rest of your post. Thanks for being thoughtful in your response.

I agree with your premise... tho folks are gonna tend to be hypersensitive about what you are suggesting ( hypersensitivity, BTW is a feminine aspect )

 

[Willifred]

Unless you're in conflict yourself, there isn't a need for you to understand what other people consider their sexuality or gender. That's not saying you shouldn't have an interest, just there is no one size fits all equation where you (as in general 'you') can achieve a definitive answer. It's a subjective issue which can't be worked out by removed others talking about it publicly.

In the end, it just doesn't matter. There is no answer. Both gender and sexuality are up to the individual experiencing it at a certain time, in a certain place, to understand for themselves. And for everyone else to show respect for whatever conclusions that individual arrives at.

A rose is a rose is a rose.