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Shock - Buffet says the rich aren't taxed enough!

sargon20

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We shouldn't tax the 'job creators' at all. We should be thankful for them and give them the highest praise. Let us bring them silver and gold.
 

Jason

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The UK is presently re-examining it's newly introduced 50% income tax band. It seems that more tax would be collected if this band is abolished and the high earners charged the previous highest rate of 40%. Politically this is difficult as there is a popular view that it is right to tax the rich more. But it does seem like an excellent illustration of the fallacy that it is possible to tax the rich. The UK has tried and the total tax take has fallen.

There is of course the view that if we taxed the rich at a lower level of 30% we would actually take more tax than at the present 40% most pay. Or maybe we should charge everyone at a flat rate (20%?) Or maybe very soon we have to wake up to the difficulty of collecting income tax in a world where fewer and fewer are in 9-5 employment with one employer and get our tax from elsewhere.
 

helgaleena

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The reason you would take more tax is that fewer rich Brits would move away to avoid the taxes? I don't think lowering the tax now will induce them to give up their offshore dodging residences. Most of those are corporations instead of individuals anyway.

Let's look at the Scandinavian model, where most everybody pays nearly 50%. It has not caused mass migrations.
 

B_enzia35

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He is more than welcome to make a donation. Let's see him put his money where is mouth is.
 

B_VinylBoy

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He is more than welcome to make a donation. Let's see him put his money where is mouth is.

:rolleyes:
Buffett donates $1.5 billion to Gates Foundation | Reuters
Warren Buffett Donates $1.78 Billion to Charity | ecorazzi.com :: the latest in green gossip
BBC NEWS | Business | Buffett donates $37bn to charity
Buffett Donates $1.6 Billion in Biggest Gift Since 2008 Crisis - Businessweek

Of course, making "donations" and paying what you're legally obligated to pay are two entirely different things. For starters, you don't go to jail if you make generous donations... but try tax evasion for a lengthy period of time and see if they don't make you bunkmates with Wesley Snipes. Bottom line, the tax codes in this country are skewed and wealthy people need to pay their appropriate share. Period. If this is the country they want to "live in" because it allows them to be as wealthy as they want to be, stop whining and pay your percentages, then you can go back to your money grubbing ways and shut up. But whatever... you would have been better off if you just came out and said that you're greedy.

Awaiting the usual "welfare recipient" comments in response. You know it's coming!
 
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Klingsor

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He is more than welcome to make a donation. Let's see him put his money where is mouth is.

The point is not that *he* personally wants to pay more tax. All things being equal, I'm sure he doesn't.

But all things have gotten increasingly far from equal in this country. And putting things right will require *all* of the super rich (not just Buffett and Bill Gates, who are willing) to pay more taxes.

A couple of voluntary donations is a drop in the bucket. For any kind of meaningful revenue enhancement, all those in the upper income brackets will have to pay significantly higher taxes. Whether they feel like making a "donation" or not.
 
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dandelion

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In the Uk an enquiry has been announced to decide whether the 50% tax rate collects less tax than a lower one would. This is a matter of dogma from the conservative party and whether or not it is true has yet to be investigated. I dont doubt that rich people will organsie their affairs so that they pay tax at the lowest rate possible, so if 50% income tax is not the lowest possible rate they will switch their 'income' so it is no longer 'income'. Traditionally the definitions of 'capital' and 'income' are interchangeable by a good accountant depending on how the sums come out best. Other scams are possible where companies retain money rather than pay it out to their owners.

The solution to citizens choosing to switch their income so it becomes something else is to raise the taxes on all the something elses so they match the 50% income tax rate.
 
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Jason

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The UK enquiry into the 50% tax band has indeed just been announced (Dandelion) but the Conservatives have had a good look at the figures first - I would be very surprised if the OBR study does not conclude that more money would be raised on 40% than 50%. Yes it is indeed mostly clever accountancy, but the idea that any government could close off all the alternatives is a non starter. Simple options include a person making their legal domicile somewhere like Jersey or Guernsey, which are not part of the UK and have their own tax laws (but use sterling, are less than an hour by air to London, and offer a very nice life style and quite a bit of sunshine). The reality is that the rich can only be taxed up to a point, and if the UK tries too hard we actually lose tax revenue, as well as jobs.

The prescription for raising more tax revenue in the UK is to reduce income tax and reduce corporation tax. The Lib Dems forced through an income tax rise - it will be interesting to see whether they agree a reduction to raise more revenue. Do the Lib Dems put first the good of the nation or the ratings of the Lib Dems? We are already reducing CT, and the trend is definitely downwards. The target has to be something like the rates of the Republic of Ireland which are a model the whole world should emulate.
 

Thedrewbert

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We shouldn't tax the 'job creators' at all. We should be thankful for them and give them the highest praise. Let us bring them silver and gold.

I'll get right on that just as SOON as they create some jobs. We've been pretty patient waiting 30 years and all....
 

Thedrewbert

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Actually, if we just raised the Cap Gains to match the other tax brackets, that would be a huge start.
 

dandelion

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This has all been argued before. The republic of Ireland can attract foreign companies by reducing tax rates because it is the one country out of step and has a small economy. So it can attract enough companies willing or able to uproot to make the cut in rates actually pay. If all the countries in the whole world cut their rates to exactly the same level, say if they cut by an average of 1/2, the amount of money received will also be 1/2. Cutting rates is simply a race to the bottom where no one pays any tax at all. What is required is international agreement to raise rates equally, and international agreement to penalise countries which are out of step.

A good place for the UK to start would be UK controlled tax havens.
 

B_crackoff

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:rolleyes:
Buffett donates $1.5 billion to Gates Foundation | Reuters
Warren Buffett Donates $1.78 Billion to Charity | ecorazzi.com :: the latest in green gossip
BBC NEWS | Business | Buffett donates $37bn to charity
Buffett Donates $1.6 Billion in Biggest Gift Since 2008 Crisis - Businessweek

Of course, making "donations" and paying what you're legally obligated to pay are two entirely different things. For starters, you don't go to jail if you make generous donations... but try tax evasion for a lengthy period of time and see if they don't make you bunkmates with Wesley Snipes. Bottom line, the tax codes in this country are skewed and wealthy people need to pay their appropriate share. Period. If this is the country they want to "live in" because it allows them to be as wealthy as they want to be, stop whining and pay your percentages, then you can go back to your money grubbing ways and shut up. But whatever... you would have been better off if you just came out and said that you're greedy.

Awaiting the usual "welfare recipient" comments in response. You know it's coming!

Fuck Buffet giving money to his pal Gates to help continue a tax exempt evil empire of influence!

That $37 Billion would have attracted $7-15 billion of tax if he had realized it upon the sale of his assets, instead of avoiding the tax to give to Bill's evil minions!

Therefore, Gate's private interests have trumped any relief domestic Americans might have received. $15 billion would have paid for all social medical programs for a week.

I am all for entrepreneurship, & its sponsorship - but for interest & capital gains to be taxed at a lower rate than actual earned income is a bloody crime. Blood, sweat & tears from labour should be taxed less than income earned sitting in your chair playing with yourself.

Re Osbourne trying to reduce the top rate - I've said this before, I'll say it again - though some people didn't follow it.

The top rate of tax can be extended, & all that extra taxation,( say 10%) used as an investment in entrepreneurs,held for them for a 10 year period to encourage domestic enterprise. (it may go up or down - but they'll get something back).

At least that way - the taxpayer has an investment, a stake in the economy, & domestic industries get a boost, instead of all that capital, generated domestically, fleeing internationally.

Anyone who wants to leave - FUCK OFF, & rip up your citizenship on the way out - you can be replaced.
 

B_enzia35

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The point is not that *he* personally wants to pay more tax. All things being equal, I'm sure he doesn't.

But all things have gotten increasingly far from equal in this country. And putting things right will require *all* of the super rich (not just Buffett and Bill Gates, who are willing) to pay more taxes.

A couple of voluntary donations is a drop in the bucket. For any kind of meaningful revenue enhancement, all those in the upper income brackets will have to pay significantly higher taxes. Whether they feel like making a "donation" or not.
Actually you can tax all the "rich" at 100%, and not even cover the upcoming deficit for this year alone. So, revenue enhancement will increase, but it won't make a dent in anything.
 
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223790

His wish would come true if he lived in Canada. We have a progressive tax system here meaning the more you earn, the more you pay. We are taxed to death here on anything and everything!
 

arkfarmbear

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When Mike Huckabee was asked about this he said a total of 40 rich americans had signed up to participate in the program.
 

B_VinylBoy

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Fuck Buffet giving money to his pal Gates to help continue a tax exempt evil empire of influence!

Taken from the Bill Gates Foundation Website -
Guided by the belief that every life has equal value, the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation works to help all people lead healthy, productive lives. In developing countries, it focuses on improving people’s health and giving them the chance to lift themselves out of hunger and extreme poverty. - Bill Gates Foundation - Fact Sheet

Yeah... just like you said. Fuck that!
Oy vey. :rolleyes: :no:

Therefore, Gate's private interests have trumped any relief domestic Americans might have received. $15 billion would have paid for all social medical programs for a week.

That wasn't the point of that post. Someone suggested that Warren Buffett "put his money where is mouth is" and make donations. I listed several to show that person (who really doesn't give a damn anyhow) that Buffett actually does make huge donations to various causes, and considering what the Bill Gates Foundation attempts to do with its donations I felt it was one worth noting. It wasn't intended to reflect anything else but that. Nobody, not even Warren Buffett, has enough money on their own to completely reverse decades of economic screw-ups and flawed government, so whatever you're ranting about in regards to Warren Buffett's donations is irrelevant.
 

D_Davy_Downspout

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Actually you can tax all the "rich" at 100%, and not even cover the upcoming deficit for this year alone.

That's not actually true.

So, revenue enhancement will increase, but it won't make a dent in anything.

Lack of revenue(along with war spending) is the driving force behind the deficit. We cut taxes during a boom period, so we had no cushion when things went to shit. So now we have the deficit you'd expect during a downturn, exacerbated by poor fiscal policy prior.

Deficits aren't really relevant during downturns, we should probably be spending more. But long term, our issue is both wasted military money and taxes being far too low.
 

B_crackoff

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Taken from the Bill Gates Foundation Website -
Guided by the belief that every life has equal value, the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation works to help all people lead healthy, productive lives. In developing countries, it focuses on improving people’s health and giving them the chance to lift themselves out of hunger and extreme poverty. - Bill Gates Foundation - Fact Sheet

Yeah... just like you said. Fuck that!
Oy vey. :rolleyes: :no:



That wasn't the point of that post. Someone suggested that Warren Buffett "put his money where is mouth is" and make donations. I listed several to show that person (who really doesn't give a damn anyhow) that Buffett actually does make huge donations to various causes, and considering what the Bill Gates Foundation attempts to do with its donations I felt it was one worth noting. It wasn't intended to reflect anything else but that. Nobody, not even Warren Buffett, has enough money on their own to completely reverse decades of economic screw-ups and flawed government, so whatever you're ranting about in regards to Warren Buffett's donations is irrelevant.

Ranting, LOL! I can't believe you used a mission statement to justify your comments.

Charitable foundations have long been used by the super rich as a way of avoiding tax whilst maintaining control of their assets - simultaneously appearing philanthropic, whilst exerting greater influence via lobbying, tacit & transparent, pushing corporate agendas transnationally, whilst holding economic clout in both the charitable & financial sphere.

A foundation need only disburse 5% of its assets annually - investment return is normally greater than this. At any time, charitable exemption may be revoked, personally or externally, at which point, ALL assets return to the foundation owners.

This is why Buffet set up a stipulation that his contribution had to be spent & matched during the year. However, his contribution is over 20 years, so it doesn't affect the 5% disbursement - it just makes it look like that foundation is disbursing more.

The Gates' foundation invests in areas completely contrary to its alleged aims. I know several massive charitable trusts that run hedge funds & investment companies, & as major shareholders exert enormous influence over the media & the gamut of industrials. For all we know, Buffet's donations are also attached to a demand to invest in certain areas, including his own areas.

A couple of the myriad charitable tax dodges anyone can indulge in:

TV stars in charity tax dodge inquiry - Times Online

Charity Donation | IRD After Tax-dodge Fundraisers At Sausage Sizzles

In summary, it's still the rich keeping control of their assets & influence unlike 99% of working stiffs, who dutifully hand over the cash that they earned to the government.
 

B_VinylBoy

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Ranting, LOL! I can't believe you used a mission statement to justify your comments.

I could use more (and you know damn well I can), but I wasn't in the mood to formulate a highly detailed post when I knew it was going to be ignored or completely disregarded.

Charitable foundations have long been used by the super rich as a way of avoiding tax whilst maintaining control of their assets - simultaneously appearing philanthropic, whilst exerting greater influence via lobbying, tacit & transparent, pushing corporate agendas transnationally, whilst holding economic clout in both the charitable & financial sphere.

A foundation need only disburse 5% of its assets annually - investment return is normally greater than this. At any time, charitable exemption may be revoked, personally or externally, at which point, ALL assets return to the foundation owners.

This is why Buffet set up a stipulation that his contribution had to be spent & matched during the year. However, his contribution is over 20 years, so it doesn't affect the 5% disbursement - it just makes it look like that foundation is disbursing more.

The Gates' foundation invests in areas completely contrary to its alleged aims. I know several massive charitable trusts that run hedge funds & investment companies, & as major shareholders exert enormous influence over the media & the gamut of industrials. For all we know, Buffet's donations are also attached to a demand to invest in certain areas, including his own areas.

And not only are you still over thinking things, you're still missing the point.
I already explained what my intentions were. I don't need you (or anyone else) trying to show me the way here. Not everything Warren Buffett does is perfect, but what he's saying on this particular subject is right. If you want to argue that, then let's go. You have personal grievance with Warren Buffett contributing to the Gates Foundation? That's something you need to deal with on your own. Period.
 

Thedrewbert

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This has all been argued before. The republic of Ireland can attract foreign companies by reducing tax rates because it is the one country out of step and has a small economy. So it can attract enough companies willing or able to uproot to make the cut in rates actually pay. If all the countries in the whole world cut their rates to exactly the same level, say if they cut by an average of 1/2, the amount of money received will also be 1/2. Cutting rates is simply a race to the bottom where no one pays any tax at all. What is required is international agreement to raise rates equally, and international agreement to penalise countries which are out of step.

A good place for the UK to start would be UK controlled tax havens.

The problem is, a company doesn't need to "uproot" to be based in Ireland. Google's primary presence still is in the U.S.
 

houtx48

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Don't have anything to back this up but when taxes are higher people seem to hustle a little more instead of sitting on their money. Buffet is right nobody is going turn down a good investment over 4% in tax difference.
 

B_crackoff

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Don't have anything to back this up but when taxes are higher people seem to hustle a little more instead of sitting on their money. Buffet is right nobody is going turn down a good investment over 4% in tax difference.

Now you've got me picturing Buffet in a Pimp suit & a golden cane, whilst Bill Gates is hand jiving at a roller disco:smile:

Do The Hustle - YouTube

Edit: Wow that was a better tune than I remembered. It's certainly happy!
 
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B_crackoff

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Well Obama just mentioned Buffet's tax rate is his ongoing address on the American Job's Act.

I've gotta say, it sounds like he's just electioneering in his address(But then again, who isn't electioneering). Most of what he's saying won't get done, or can't get done.

"We have to outbuild, out educate, & out innovate every country on earth!"

"I wanna see more products with the three proud words "Made in America"

Bombing them's a start!:biggrin1:
 
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dandelion

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The problem is, a company doesn't need to "uproot" to be based in Ireland. Google's primary presence still is in the U.S.
Im sure some clever lawyer would be only too happy to draft something which said that if a companies main activities are not in country A, then it will not be treated as based in country A. Surely such proposals must be sitting on every treasury departments desk?
 

Domisoldo

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The reason you would take more tax is that fewer rich Brits would move away to avoid the taxes? I don't think lowering the tax now will induce them to give up their offshore dodging residences. Most of those are corporations instead of individuals anyway.

Let's look at the Scandinavian model, where most everybody pays nearly 50%. It has not caused mass migrations.

No, but I hear the suicide rate is high. :biggrin1:
 

dandelion

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His wish would come true if he lived in Canada. We have a progressive tax system here meaning the more you earn, the more you pay. We are taxed to death here on anything and everything!
But I hear the economy is doing quite well in these difficult times?