Should Body Shaming And Hateful Speech Towards Performers Be Allowed?

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Hi Everyone!

I hope you are doing well and you have been able to maintain some level of sanity in this locked-down world we are living in.

I'd like to discuss the mean spirited, body shaming, online bullying, and borderline hate speech comments that are being made about performers. Since the lockdown, I've received more and more complaints about this dialogue that is taking place. The primary source of complaints is from performers. With the lockdown in place, they've had time to sit and read all the comments about themselves. Many of them are struggling with these comments. I've also received complaints from LPSG users that are simply fed up with how mean spirited people are.

I've made my opinion clear on this subject. I believe in spreading positivity in the world and when I see something I don't like I move along rather than saying something negative. I think it is a far nicer approach to say "not my type" rather than saying "I'm not into horse-faced assholes". Many of you have told me it is your right to say whatever you please about these performers no matter how mean spirited it may be.

I think now is a good time for us to discuss this. A lot of European governments are in the process of putting hate speech laws in place for social media. In the very near future, there will be a time where these types of posts will be illegal and could get you (and me) in big trouble.

So here are some questions for you....
1. Should LPSG users be allowed to body shame performers?
2. Should LPSG users be allowed to post mean spirited hateful comments towards performers?

Please know I understand why many of you are frustrated with performers. I know there is a mixture of frustration that they are charging too much for a service/product that doesn't match that price. I know there is also some jealousy that many of you feel these performers don't deserve to be making the money they are making. I understand that. Does that entitle LPSG users to viciously attack performers as they have been doing for the past few months?

I'd love to hear your feedback and thoughts on this.
 
D

deleted4500261

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In the same line of thinking of “I have a right to say whatever I want”, you have the right to delete that comment or ban them (after warning). There are people who seem to solely exist for “triggering” people or starting dumpster fires for fun. I’ll be honest, I left LPSG the first time because I saw quite a bit of that behavior (that and guys sending me dick pics without even asking).
In fairness it was only a handful of members but they seemed to post a lot so I would see their comments a lot.
I don’t subscribe to the “I have a right to be an asshole” argument because it isn’t a God given right to make other people’s lives miserable. My motto is “be nice or get out”.

Many times the counter argument is for me to leave if I don’t like it. Fair enough. At some point the snakes will have nothing left to eat but each other.
 

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I though this site already had rules to stop things like that. but maybe I am misunderstanding them.
  • Posts must relate to the topic of the Thread.
  • Agree to disagree without denigrating into personal insults or other negative behavior.
  • Content that is abusive, hateful, threatening, spam or spam-like, likely to offend, contains objectionable/derogatory language, hate speech, etc., is prohibited.
  • Petty insults and name-calling are prohibited.
  • Discussions devolving into "fighting" are prohibited.
  • Trolling is prohibited. Trolling covers a vast array of behavior but mainly revolves around members who consistently post in a manner which they know will upset others, members who insist on going off-topic to serve their own agenda (which has nothing to do with the thread topic).
  • Deliberately misstating what a poster has written to misconstrue or mislead others is prohibited.
 
D

deleted1338543

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1. Should LPSG users be allowed to body shame performers?

Body shaming is a real problem, but as with all problems, the devil's in the details. What constitutes body shaming? How do edge cases get adjudicated? Who decides? I have a lot of confidence in Mr. LPSG's good faith for edge cases, but I've seen some questionable insertions by often-anonymous moderators over the last few months, too, that gives me pause.

And I'm skeptical that equating body shaming with hate speech is intellectually or legally coherent. Calling someone a "horse-faced asshole" isn't "body shaming" in any meaningful sense of the term. Calling someone "an obese, gross lump of lardy humanity who ought to go on a diet" probably gets closer to body shaming—but I don't really see a lot of that obviously callow commentary. (Then again, I don't read every thread, either.)

Hate speech governs legally protected classes. Being "ugly" isn't a legally protected class. Having poorly designed tattoos covering your face isn't a legally protected class. Having long hair as a male isn't a legally protected class. Not wiping before you post close-up ass pics isn't a legally protected class. Yet I've seen commentary — including mean-spirited commentary — address all those subjects in recent weeks. If the proposal is that commenting in an adverse way about any performer's appearance constitutes a TOS violation, then it solidifies a perception among some LPSG members that the dominant ethos of the current LPSG leadership unduly promotes performers as, themselves, a protected class with special privileges and a much longer rope than what's dispensed to non-performer members.

If the goal is to identify and protect performers as a special class, then let's be honest about it. Incrementalism couched in terms promoting civility ... well, given that Bryan Hawn's account isn't banned, you'll forgive my skepticism.

2. Should LPSG users be allowed to post mean spirited hateful comments towards performers?


I think this is the wrong question. In an open-access server without meaningful registration vetting, the risk of trolls remains absurdly high. Long-term, high-engagement, long-term members aren't really the problem here — you'll get snark or meanness sometimes, but not all that often.

The random trolls, or the old but very-low-engagement accounts, are really the problem. If LPSG wants to address "mean spirited hateful comments toward performers," then the first step probably shouldn't be yet another rules reconstruction, but rather deployment of infrastructure or registration-management protocols that weed bad-faith registrations or profile higher-risk user accounts in the first place.

A "no hurtful comments" policy about "performers" solves the wrong problem. You'd go a lot farther by:

1. Clarifying definitively whether performers are a protected class, and if so, the the extent of those provisions.
2. Implementing some sort of front-end triage to limit bad-faith signups.
3. A more robust moderation system that relies more on timeouts, points, visible mods, and less moderator subjectivity.

Looking for a speech policy to solve an infrastructure problem neither corrects the speech nor improves the infrastructure.
 

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If someone shares an observation regarding a performer's physical appearance are they body shaming? If I say porn star Danny D is too thin for his height, and his highlights are unflattering. Am I body shaming him? Can examples of hateful speech, and body shaming be provided so we debate towards an agreement of what is acceptable?
 

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I though this site already had rules to stop things like that. but maybe I am misunderstanding them.
  • Posts must relate to the topic of the Thread.
  • Agree to disagree without denigrating into personal insults or other negative behavior.
  • Content that is abusive, hateful, threatening, spam or spam-like, likely to offend, contains objectionable/derogatory language, hate speech, etc., is prohibited.
  • Petty insults and name-calling are prohibited.
  • Discussions devolving into "fighting" are prohibited.
  • Trolling is prohibited. Trolling covers a vast array of behavior but mainly revolves around members who consistently post in a manner which they know will upset others, members who insist on going off-topic to serve their own agenda (which has nothing to do with the thread topic).
  • Deliberately misstating what a poster has written to misconstrue or mislead others is prohibited.
It does but most of those rules have always been applied to users interacting with users and not users commenting on a non site member.
 

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I think there’s a big difference between criticism and shaming. Criticism is sharing or saying what could be better in their opinion. Body shaming is just to be hurtful and say something negative especially when it’s something that cannot be fixed in a short amount of time. I think if you can look at it through the lens of someone wanting to be helpful then it’s fair game. But if someone’s just being a troll, then we should be allowed to block the comments and eventually the user.
I feel this place is a great platform for inclusivity and there are a ton of examples of different kinds of sexy from performers being mentioned to other members. Ultimately it comes to this: If you like it, like it but if you don’t, move on.
 

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1. Should LPSG users be allowed to body shame performers?

Body shaming is a real problem, but as with all problems, the devil's in the details. What constitutes body shaming? How do edge cases get adjudicated? Who decides? I have a lot of confidence in Mr. LPSG's good faith for edge cases, but I've seen some questionable insertions by often-anonymous moderators over the last few months, too, that gives me pause.

And I'm skeptical that equating body shaming with hate speech is intellectually or legally coherent. Calling someone a "horse-faced asshole" isn't "body shaming" in any meaningful sense of the term. Calling someone "an obese, gross lump of lardy humanity who ought to go on a diet" probably gets closer to body shaming—but I don't really see a lot of that obviously callow commentary. (Then again, I don't read every thread, either.)

Hate speech governs legally protected classes. Being "ugly" isn't a legally protected class. Having poorly designed tattoos covering your face isn't a legally protected class. Having long hair as a male isn't a legally protected class. Not wiping before you post close-up ass pics isn't a legally protected class. Yet I've seen commentary — including mean-spirited commentary — address all those subjects in recent weeks. If the proposal is that commenting in an adverse way about any performer's appearance constitutes a TOS violation, then it solidifies a perception among some LPSG members that the dominant ethos of the current LPSG leadership unduly promotes performers as, themselves, a protected class with special privileges and a much longer rope than what's dispensed to non-performer members.

If the goal is to identify and protect performers as a special class, then let's be honest about it. Incrementalism couched in terms promoting civility ... well, given that Bryan Hawn's account isn't banned, you'll forgive my skepticism.

2. Should LPSG users be allowed to post mean spirited hateful comments towards performers?


I think this is the wrong question. In an open-access server without meaningful registration vetting, the risk of trolls remains absurdly high. Long-term, high-engagement, long-term members aren't really the problem here — you'll get snark or meanness sometimes, but not all that often.

The random trolls, or the old but very-low-engagement accounts, are really the problem. If LPSG wants to address "mean spirited hateful comments toward performers," then the first step probably shouldn't be yet another rules reconstruction, but rather deployment of infrastructure or registration-management protocols that weed bad-faith registrations or profile higher-risk user accounts in the first place.

A "no hurtful comments" policy about "performers" solves the wrong problem. You'd go a lot farther by:

1. Clarifying definitively whether performers are a protected class, and if so, the the extent of those provisions.
2. Implementing some sort of front-end triage to limit bad-faith signups.
3. A more robust moderation system that relies more on timeouts, points, visible mods, and less moderator subjectivity.

Looking for a speech policy to solve an infrastructure problem neither corrects the speech nor improves the infrastructure.
I appreciate your points and your feedback. The reason I included them in the same thread (Body shaming and hateful speech) is because of a law France passed yesterday that lumped both together. France is now going to issue fines for such behavior. This is a big problem. I'd rather LPSG as a site be ahead of the curve and be prepared for such things than get caught not being aware. Obviously the law is vague which is a big problem.

Is making fun of someone's dick size body shaming?

Bryan Hawn isn't banned but he's banned :) You haven't seen him post right? :)
 
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If someone shares an observation regarding a performer's physical appearance are they body shaming? If I say porn star Danny D is too thin for his height, and his highlights are unflattering. Am I body shaming him? Can examples of hateful speech, and body shaming be provided so we debate towards an agreement of what is acceptable?

I don't know. That is why I want to talk about this. Is calling someone a pencil dick body shaming? I think most would say it is.
 

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I think there’s a big difference between criticism and shaming. Criticism is sharing or saying what could be better in their opinion. Body shaming is just to be hurtful and say something negative especially when it’s something that cannot be fixed in a short amount of time. I think if you can look at it through the lens of someone wanting to be helpful then it’s fair game. But if someone’s just being a troll, then we should be allowed to block the comments and eventually the user.
I feel this place is a great platform for inclusivity and there are a ton of examples of different kinds of sexy from performers being mentioned to other members. Ultimately it comes to this: If you like it, like it but if you don’t, move on.
I agree.
 
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Here is an example

"I’m not surprised they would want their pics deleted, they are so cute and yet Michaels got that deformed dick, sad really, I can see why he wouldn’t want people to see it."

Should this be allowed?
 
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Your board, your rules. Pretty simple, really. That's how the free speech scolds get shut down. You're not a government. You don't have to run by those terms and confines, at least when we look at it through a US lens.
 

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I hope my intention with this conversation is understood. I feel a lot of users may think I'm the bad guy in this area of the site. I'm bound by laws that dictate what I can and can not do. We follow the law so that LPSG can stay in business and be around for another 20 years. I work hard to protect every LPSG user. Even users that msg me to "fuck off" I still protect them behind the scenes from getting into trouble with performers and their lawyers.

Europe is not the US. To the detriment of technology and the growth of innovation, Europe is enacting a lot of laws to protect the way of life that people have always known. That involves privacy and freedom of speech issues. I don't necessarily agree with these laws but they are important and it's better to discuss them ahead of time than be surprised when policies and rules change.
 

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Here is an example

"I’m not surprised they would want their pics deleted, they are so cute and yet Michaels got that deformed dick, sad really, I can see why he wouldn’t want people to see it."

Should this be allowed?
Wow I kinda feel cool that I was quoted by the owner haha but back to the topic

I think this is a good example of body shaming. He can’t change his dick and the only intention of the poster was to have others look negatively at something that one has no control over. Yeah there may be dicks that I don’t think look attractive by themselves but I would never hedge a dude for it. Just like I don’t want a guy just wanting to be with me just for my dick. It’s sad when members feel the need to degrade someone and be petty and mean just for that sake only.
 

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Substitute the word deformed with small. Substitute the word deformed with two-toned. Porn star Bruce Venture's cock is described as two-toned. I am really unsure what key words make it body shaming.
 
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Wow I kinda feel cool that I was quoted by the owner haha but back to the topic

I think this is a good example of body shaming. He can’t change his dick and the only intention of the poster was to have others look negatively at something that one has no control over. Yeah there may be dicks that I don’t think look attractive by themselves but I would never hedge a dude for it. Just like I don’t want a guy just wanting to be with me just for my dick. It’s sad when members feel the need to degrade someone and be petty and mean just for that sake only.

I just really like how you simplified it. I wasn't able to think of a way to say it nicely and you did it perfectly. If it's something you can't change then you shouldn't be attacked for it.
 

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Substitute the word deformed with small. Substitute the word deformed with two-toned. Porn star Bruce Venture's cock is described as two-toned. I am really unsure what key words make it body shaming.

I think in most cases it comes down to whether it is a positive or negative comment. Usually that is pretty easy to gather from a post.
 
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I think there’s nothing wrong with wanting to stop reckless behavior and comments. We as a community need to let these people know that it’s unacceptable. We shouldn’t have to rely on mods to curate discussions unless it’s absolutely necessary (as in posts or topics that are blatantly against the rules). Speech should be free because sanitizing it only makes us forget how vile and nasty something is when we come across it. I think we should not be afraid to call others out and they will serve as examples of what’s not appropriate or tolerated in posts and members.
 
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