Should Canada Still Offer Refuge to American Military Deserters?

[1BiGG1]

How, pray tell, was Iraq threatening America? Don't give me crap about Al-Qaeda or WMD's (neither of which were proven to be in Iraq).

And, again, there was no surrender. It was a cease-fire. There is a very significant difference, which you fail to see.



I'll be the first person to admit that Hussein was an asshole and a tyrant. Mugabe and Kim Jung IL are also tyrants, so shouldn't the US invade Zimbabwe and N. Korea? Should every country that cheated the US out of money be invaded also? Your reasoning is flawed, and your attitude is downright dangerous. If every American had your attitude, the world would be apocalyptic.

Edit:
Afghanistan is obviously a very different situation. Al-Queda was based there, and the government was supporting them--that's why Canada is there.

Fuck Zimbabwe and North Korea which are both nothing but welfare states and we support enough of those already (including both of them). It’s a different story considering the worlds economy is based on oil and the United States pays over 50 billion dollars per year protecting shipping lanes in the Middle East not including Iraq. If every American was a pushover leftist like you are Americas and the worlds economy would be in ruin since every two-bit religious whacko and crook would be walking all over US.

You can afford to be a pacifist simply because others are willing to keep you in a position to have that right but it’s not like your right came without blood.

P.S. and you are not now pretending AlQaeda isn’t based in, and very active in Iraq as well are you? They are and they are just one of many nut-jobs that need supervision from the sane so nothing like sitting up shop right smack in the middle of the 2000 year old problem so we can deal with this as the wise say.

 

[1BiGG1]

Dude,
You need to get out more. Or at least get laid more often. I can picture you right now, sitting all alone in your room, with your 8x10 color photo of George W., placed ever so precisely on the desk next to your computer.
You haven't got a clue.
Go out into the sunshine and take in the real world. But first, take a nice warm shower, hopefully you'll meet someone out there who might want to show you a good time.

Peace, brother.

:smile: Peace to you as well but …. ummm …. I don’t know how to say this tactfully so I will just say it flat out = Please get in contact with whoever sold you your “How To Be Clairvoyant” lessons and tell them you want you money back! For some reason it appears you actually believe they worked so let me be the first to tell you it was just a rip-off hopefully saving you from any further embarrassment! :smile:

 

[vince]

The US Congress authorized the war based on lies and faulty intelligence from the Bush Administration. The UN inspectors could find no WMD's in Iraq immediately before the war. Hans Blick stated that before the war. Six years on, the country has been turned upside down by the US military and they still haven't found any WMD's.

Al Queda was NOT in Iraq before the war. They were sworn enemies of the secularist dictator Saddam. Saddam had no truck with the fundamentalists, because he feared them. They ARE there now thanks to the war.

bin Laden is still in business in Afghanistan largely because the the Administration of Bush took their eye off the ball when they decided to divert their resources to Iraq. Why hasn't that fucker been caught yet?

911 offered the irresistable cover that Cheney, Rumsfeld and Bush needed to take out Saddam. I think that even without 911, eventually there would have been another war in Iraq because it was in the cards even before the election of 2000.

I don't give a shit what the deniers say, the Iraq war was trumped up, based on lies, has cost thousands of lives and billions of (borrowed) dollars, is ruining the US economy, has emboldened the crazies in Iran, and has left the world LESS secure from terrorists.

 

[Bbucko]

A person not being allowed to leave the military any time they choose is a relic of feudalism.

The US Congress authorized the war based on lies and faulty intelligence from the Bush Administration. The UN inspectors could find no WMD's in Iraq immediately before the war. Hans Blick stated that before the war. Six years on, the country has been turned upside down by the US military and they still haven't found any WMD's.

Al Queda was NOT in Iraq before the war. They were sworn enemies of the secularist dictator Saddam. Saddam had no truck with the fundamentalists, because he feared them. They ARE there now thanks to the war.

bin Laden is still in business in Afghanistan largely because the the Administration of Bush took their eye off the ball when they decided to divert their resources to Iraq. Why hasn't that fucker been caught yet?

911 offered the irresistable cover that Cheney, Rumsfeld and Bush needed to take out Saddam. I think that even without 911, eventually there would have been another war in Iraq because it was in the cards even before the election of 2000.

I don't give a shit what the deniers say, the Iraq war was trumped up, based on lies, has cost thousands of lives and billions of (borrowed) dollars, is ruining the US economy, has emboldened the crazies in Iran, and has left the world LESS secure from terrorists.

Both quoted for truth.

 

[1BiGG1]

The US Congress authorized the war based on lies and faulty intelligence from the Bush Administration.

I think you may want to read up on reality before commenting any further …

http://www.c-span.org/resources/pdf/hjres114.pdf

The UN inspectors could find no WMD's in Iraq immediately before the war. Hans Blick stated that before the war. Six years on, the country has been turned upside down by the US military and they still haven't found any WMD's.

Saddam’s surrender agreement stated UN inspectors called the shots for carrying out their inspections. His surrender agreement did not say UN inspectors could only inspect the places he thought would be ok. Saddam thought he got to call the shots since his friends in France and Russia were being paid off, Saddam was wrong.

Al Queda was NOT in Iraq before the war. They were sworn enemies of the secularist dictator Saddam. Saddam had no truck with the fundamentalists, because he feared them. They ARE there now thanks to the war.

The people of Iraq do not agree with you …

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/09/25/us.iraq.alqaeda/

bin Laden is still in business in Afghanistan largely because the the Administration of Bush took their eye off the ball when they decided to divert their resources to Iraq. Why hasn't that fucker been caught yet?

Ridiculous, we can handle both fronts and if bin Laden was caught nothing would change anyway, there are many in line to replace him but since you are so worried about it why not ask your government to get off its lazy ass and help a little more.

911 offered the irresistable cover that Cheney, Rumsfeld and Bush needed to take out Saddam. I think that even without 911, eventually there would have been another war in Iraq because it was in the cards even before the election of 2000.

This one you got correct, yes, planting sanity right smack in the middle of the insane known as the Middle East was in the cards all along … too bad there are not more willing to help stabilize this 2000 year old wasteland of religious freaks since WMD are really cheap now and they have really big checkbooks. History will look kindly on George Bush for having the balls to do what was sorely needed.

I don't give a shit what the deniers say, the Iraq war was trumped up, based on lies, has cost thousands of lives and billions of (borrowed) dollars, is ruining the US economy, has emboldened the crazies in Iran, and has left the world LESS secure from terrorists.

I have already corrected your misinformation about this war allegedly being ”trumped up” and allegedly ”based on lies” and following up with this allegedly ”ruining the US economy” is , well … just more baseless misinformation.

Pretending this has made the world “less secure” is not helping your cause for believability either considering you have zero substantiating that claim. I like those who believe in the quote “Keep your friends close and your enemies closer” including our enemies in the wacky Middle East.

 

[1BiGG1]

Both quoted for truth.

LOL! Nice break seeing somebody throwing some humor into this thread! :biggrin1:

 

[D_Marazion Analdouche]

:hijacked: Soooo much for staying on topic of the OP.

 

[D_Hyacinth Harrytwat]

I fully admit I am biased but at the same time have supported my stance with evidence. There is much more to this story besides Saddam not abiding by his surrender agreement (which is common knowledge since the first Gulf War), and Saddam paying off dirty UN Security Council member countries with the Oil-For-Food thingy.

Amongst his many other mockeries Saddam was also offering and paying homicide bombers families a $25,000 bounty for killing “infidels” so we kinda figured it would be wise to take the douche-bag out putting the rest of the douche-bags on notice that some countries may be liberal pushovers and/or crooks, but others with really big militaries will not be taking this shit from any of them.

I find it interesting Canada and many others help in Afghanistan but allowed Saddam who was much more dangerous too his own people and the world to do the same as the Taliban was doing in Afghanistan.

Admitting that you're biased is not a strong hook to get me to read the rest of your post and believe it. Where are you getting all this information?

 

[vince]

Ridiculous, we can handle both fronts and if bin Laden was caught nothing would change anyway, there are many in line to replace him but since you are so worried about it why not ask your government to get off its lazy ass and help a little more.

My country's military is already busting it's ass in Kandahar.

From the Congressional Joint Resolution you offered up-
Whereas the efforts of international weapons inspectors, United
States intelligence agencies, and Iraqi defectors led to the discovery
that Iraq had large stockpiles of chemical weapons and
a large scale biological weapons program, and that Iraq had
an advanced nuclear weapons development program that was
much closer to producing a nuclear weapon than intelligence
reporting had previously indicated;

Whereas Iraq both poses a continuing threat to the national security
of the United States and international peace and security in
the Persian Gulf region and remains in material and unacceptable
breach of its international obligations by, among other things,
continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and
biological weapons capability, actively seeking a nuclear weapons
capability, and supporting and harboring terrorist organizations;

Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility
for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests,
including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are
known to be in Iraq;

Speaking on the anniversary of the United States' invasion of Iraq, originally declared as a pre-emptive strike against a madman ready to deploy weapons of mass destruction (WMDs), the man first charged with finding those weapons said that the U.S. government has "the same mind frame as the witch hunters of the past" — looking for evidence to support a foregone conclusion. "There were about 700 inspections, and in no case did we find weapons of mass destruction," said Hans Blix, the Swedish diplomat called out of retirement to serve as the United Nations' chief weapons inspector from 2000 to 2003; from 1981 to 1997 he headed the International Atomic Energy Agency. "We went to sites [in Iraq] given to us by intelligence, and only in three cases did we find something" - a stash of nuclear documents, some Vulcan boosters, and several empty warheads for chemical weapons. More inspections were required to determine whether these findings were the "tip of the iceberg" or simply fragments remaining from that deadly iceberg's past destruction, Blix said he told the United Nations Security Council. However, his work in Iraq was cut short when the United States and the United Kingdom took disarmament into their own hands in March of last year.


Blix accused U.S. President George W. Bush and U.K. Prime Minister Tony Blair of acting not in bad faith, but with a severe lack of "critical thinking." The United States and Britain failed to examine the sources of their primary intelligence - Iraqi defectors with their own agendas for encouraging regime change - with a skeptical eye, he alleged. In the buildup to the war, Saddam Hussein and the Iraqis were cooperating with U.N. inspections, and in February 2003 had provided Blix's team with the names of hundreds of scientists to interview, individuals Saddam claimed had been involved in the destruction of banned weapons. Had the inspections been allowed to continue, Blix said, there would likely be a very different situation in Iraq today. As it was, America's pre-emptive, unilateral actions "have bred more terrorism there and elsewhere."


http://www.c-span.org/resources/pdf/hjres114.pdf



You said, "The people of Iraq do not agree with you …"

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/09/25/us.iraq.alqaeda/

Did you even read that article? Or did you think I/we wouldn't?
It doesn''t even mention the "people of Iraq". It quotes Ms. Rice as saying, ""We know too that several of the detainees, in particular some high-ranking detainees, have said that Iraq provided some training to al Qaeda in chemical weapons development," Rice said.

Re-read the article you offered and tell me where it show any reference to the "people of Iraq" thinking or saying that al Qaida was in Iraq.


The 911 Commission does not agree with you.

From Statement 15 for the 911 commission-
"Bin Laden also explored possible cooperation with Iraq during his time in Sudan, despite his opposition to Hussein's secular regime. Bin Laden had in fact at one time sponsored anti-Saddam Islamists in Iraqi Kurdistan. The Sudanese, to protect their own ties with Iraq, reportedly persuaded Bin Laden to cease this support and arranged for contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda. A senior Iraqi intelligence officer reportedly made three visits to Sudan, finally meeting Bin Laden in 1994. Bin Laden is said to have requested space to establish training camps, as well as assistance in procuring weapons, but Iraq apparently never responded. There have been reports that contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda also occurred after Bin Laden returned to Afghanistan, but they do not appear to have resulted in a collaborative relationship. Two senior Bin Laden associates have adamantly denied that any ties existed between al Qaeda and Iraq. We have no credible evidence that Iraq and al Qaeda cooperated on attacks against the United States."

You are either delusional or you are a knee-jerk Republican who is incapable of admitting a mistake. I can't figure out which. Maybe both

 

[D_Marazion Analdouche]

Ridiculous, we can handle both fronts and if bin Laden was caught nothing would change anyway, there are many in line to replace him but since you are so worried about it why not ask your government to get off its lazy ass and help a little more.

I've been involved in almost every deployment large or small since 1989. Coming from someone who has been on both frontlines, no we can't handle both fronts effectively. I've talked about this in another thread, and I am trying to avoid drifting from the OP. We are doing a excellent job regardless of what the mainstream press shows, however it would have been 100 times cleaner if we were focused on one mission at a time.

I'll say it again for those in the cheap seats, we should have buttoned up Afghanistan prior to moving onto another objective. We were not prepared to deploy to two fronts, with both needing some form of occupation. If this time around dealing with Iraq was going to be like GW1, then yes, we could have handled that much like the first time around. However, anyone with any knowledge of the region would know this was going to be an extensive occupation before there was any form of resolution.

 

[1BiGG1]

My country's military is already busting it's ass in Kandahar.

While I mean no disrespect to the fine soldiers from Canada fighting in Afghanistan as I hold them in the highest esteem, I do think Canada could step up its effort in troop strength and money considering the amount of troops and money the US and UK spend in the region. We have carried Canada’s and many others asses dealing with the Middle East for far too long.


Weapons inspectors: You can throw all the misleading quotes into this equation you want but it all boils down too Saddam spent a decade+ interfering with the inspection program with everything from blocking access to certain facilities, failing to produce required documentation and anything else he could think of to hamper the process. Please stop making Saddam the victim here as you and a few other ultra left-wingers are the only ones that think he was a victim.

You said, "The people of Iraq do not agree with you …"

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/09/25/us.iraq.alqaeda/

Did you even read that article? Or did you think I/we wouldn't?
It doesn''t even mention the "people of Iraq". It quotes Ms. Rice as saying, ""We know too that several of the detainees, in particular some high-ranking detainees, have said that Iraq provided some training to al Qaeda in chemical weapons development," Rice said.

Re-read the article you offered and tell me where it show any reference to the "people of Iraq" thinking or saying that al Qaida was in Iraq.

Umm, I’m thinking you are the one that did not read it or if you did you are unable to comprehend what you read! From the article …


"The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer," Rice said the U.S. government clearly knows "that there were in the past and have been contacts between senior Iraqi officials and members of al Qaeda going back for actually quite a long time."

"We know too that several of the detainees, in particular some high-ranking detainees, have said that Iraq provided some training to al Qaeda in chemical weapons development," Rice said.

"So, yes, there are contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda. We know that Saddam Hussein has a long history with terrorism in general. And there are some al Qaeda personnel who found refuge in Baghdad," she said. "There clearly are contacts between al Qaeda and Iraq that can be documented."

Next you quote a bunch of off-topic crap about Saddam and bin Laden not being proven to have been working together. Nobody said they were so please try to stay on-topic as its so much easier if we do.

 

[1BiGG1]

I've been involved in almost every deployment large or small since 1989. Coming from someone who has been on both frontlines, no we can't handle both fronts effectively. I've talked about this in another thread, and I am trying to avoid drifting from the OP. We are doing a excellent job regardless of what the mainstream press shows, however it would have been 100 times cleaner if we were focused on one mission at a time.

I'll say it again for those in the cheap seats, we should have buttoned up Afghanistan prior to moving onto another objective. We were not prepared to deploy to two fronts, with both needing some form of occupation. If this time around dealing with Iraq was going to be like GW1, then yes, we could have handled that much like the first time around. However, anyone with any knowledge of the region would know this was going to be an extensive occupation before there was any form of resolution.

On the same note the United States should have listened too Stormin’ Norman and took Bagdad the first time around but since the nearly worthless UN was calling the shots that fiasco turned into a need to bypass the UN.

The Middle East is out of control; today we have factions with giant checkbooks and easy access to WMD that could easily put a major damper on the world’s economy and corrupt UN/NATO debate teams that are not willing to do anything about it unless we force them to.

President Clinton raped our military of critical assets including and especially intelligence. I’m glad George had the balls to not take anybodies word for anything since we have been burned so many times and I’m glad George took advantage of the situation at hand by planting US in Iraq much like we set-up shop after WWII in Asia & Europe.

 

[vince]

While I mean no disrespect to the fine soldiers from Canada fighting in Afghanistan as I hold them in the highest esteem, I do think Canada could step up its effort in troop strength and money considering the amount of troops and money the US and UK spend in the region. We have carried Canada’s and many others asses dealing with the Middle East for far too long.


Weapons inspectors: You can throw all the misleading quotes into this equation you want but it all boils down too Saddam spent a decade+ interfering with the inspection program with everything from blocking access to certain facilities, failing to produce required documentation and anything else he could think of to hamper the process. Please stop making Saddam the victim here as you and a few other ultra left-wingers are the only ones that think he was a victim.





Umm, I’m thinking you are the one that did not read it or if you did you are unable to comprehend what you read! From the article …


"The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer," Rice said the U.S. government clearly knows "that there were in the past and have been contacts between senior Iraqi officials and members of al Qaeda going back for actually quite a long time."

"We know too that several of the detainees, in particular some high-ranking detainees, have said that Iraq provided some training to al Qaeda in chemical weapons development," Rice said.

"So, yes, there are contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda. We know that Saddam Hussein has a long history with terrorism in general. And there are some al Qaeda personnel who found refuge in Baghdad," she said. "There clearly are contacts between al Qaeda and Iraq that can be documented."

Next you quote a bunch of off-topic crap about Saddam and bin Laden not being proven to have been working together. Nobody said they were so please try to stay on-topic as its so much easier if we do.

So exactly where in that CNN article does it say "the Iraqi people", other than "several detainees" (probably being tortured in Abu Ghraib), knew that al Qaida was in Iraq before the war? Talked about misleading.

 

[ZOS23xy]

A political line is the shortest distance between two pinheads.

 

[D_Tintagel_Demondong]

You think that I'm a pushover, huh. I wish you could tell that to my face. I'd love to show you how us Canucks deal with pussies like you.

Per capita, Canada has invested more money and troops than any other country in world peacekeeping. For decades, we've heard news of fallen young soldiers from Cyprus, Bosnia, Afghanistan, etc. It's a sacrifice that we are willing to make, and we are proud of our efforts in worldwide peacekeeping. I has united us.

Fuck Zimbabwe and North Korea which are both nothing but welfare states and we support enough of those already (including both of them).

Yes! Those goddamn poor non-Americans. Blow them up and be done with them!

It’s a different story considering the worlds economy is based on oil and the United States pays over 50 billion dollars per year protecting shipping lanes in the Middle East not including Iraq.

Let's see... American spends $50 billion per year (dubious) to let American oil companies buy oil, fill their tankers, and bring it back to the US to sell at high prices. How generous of the American government.

If every American was a pushover leftist like you are Americas and the worlds economy would be in ruin since every two-bit religious whacko and crook would be walking all over US.

Funny, that's exactly what it's like in Canada. Snake charmers and carpet baggers are continually deceiving us out of our money. In fact, none of us can pay for our cars, mortgages, savings plans. If only these two-bit religious wackos would stop taking our money for their family values agendas and building their $5 million non-denomination churches so that we can run around the isles while posessed with the holy spirit. Pity us poor leftists!

You can afford to be a pacifist simply because others are willing to keep you in a position to have that right but it’s not like your right came without blood.

Ahh yes, the Canadian War of Independence. We had that after the Gumdrop War of Lollipopville.

P.S. and you are not now pretending AlQaeda isn’t based in, and very active in Iraq as well are you?

As Vince mentioned, if Al-Qaeda is now in Iraq, it's the fault of the Coalition. Al-Qaeda was not active in Iraq during Hussein's time.

They are and they are just one of many nut-jobs that need supervision from the sane so nothing like sitting up shop right smack in the middle of the 2000 year old problem so we can deal with this as the wise say.

Thank God that America will finally deal with this 2,000-year old problem in a matter of years. If only someone 'sane' would have invaded them earlier, then all of the Middle east's problems would have been solved. After all, military occupations always bring peace and content among civilians.

Soooo much for staying on topic of the OP.

It seems like a tangent, but I think the validity of the war is relevant to the OP. The US can't ethically use legal reasons to punish this guy for deserting a war that is, itself, illegal.

You are either delusional or you are a knee-jerk Republican who is incapable of admitting a mistake. I can't figure out which. Maybe both

I was wondering the same, Vince. I thought that he was joking at first. I mean, he sounds like a bad parody.

He can tell people to "read up on reality" all he wants, but he is actually the only one here who is not using facts to support their claims. Almost everything that he's said is morally, ethically, legally, or factually wrong.

He caught me in a sarcastic mood. Normally, I'd just tell him to fuck off.

 

[1BiGG1]

So exactly where in that CNN article does it say "the Iraqi people", other than "several detainees" (probably being tortured in Abu Ghraib), knew that al Qaida was in Iraq before the war? Talked about misleading.

Here, i will post the quotes again in bold for you ...

"The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer," Rice said the U.S. government clearly knows "that there were in the past and have been contacts between senior Iraqi officials and members of al Qaeda going back for actually quite a long time."

"We know too that several of the detainees, in particular some high-ranking detainees, have said that Iraq provided some training to al Qaeda in chemical weapons development," Rice said.

"So, yes, there are contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda. We know that Saddam Hussein has a long history with terrorism in general. And there are some al Qaeda personnel who found refuge in Baghdad," she said. "There clearly are contacts between al Qaeda and Iraq that can be documented."

 

[1BiGG1]

You think that I'm a pushover, huh. I wish you could tell that to my face. I'd love to show you how us Canucks deal with pussies like you.

:biggrin1: LOL! Too Funny! A wee-little one that’s gets himself all worked up on an internet forum and threatens to beat me up! Well wee-one, you most assuredly get laugh-of-the-week and I will gladly give you that but don’t mind that I stopped reading after that point as wannbe third-graders don’t impress nor scare me in the least.

 

[D_Marazion Analdouche]

It seems like a tangent, but I think the validity of the war is relevant to the OP. The US can't ethically use legal reasons to punish this guy for deserting a war that is, itself, illegal.

One has nothing to do with the other. You sign up, you do as your told, regardless of what your view is on the war. If you don't agree with not having an option, it's simple don't sign up.

 

[vince]

Al Queda was NOT in Iraq before the war. They were sworn enemies of the secularist dictator Saddam. Saddam had no truck with the fundamentalists, because he feared them. They ARE there now thanks to the war.

The people of Iraq do not agree with you …

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/09/25/us.iraq.alqaeda/

So exactly where in that CNN article does it say "the Iraqi people", other than "several detainees" (probably being tortured in Abu Ghraib), knew that al Qaida was in Iraq before the war? Talked about misleading.

Here, i will post the quotes again in bold for you ...

"The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer," Rice said the U.S. government clearly knows "that there were in the past and have been contacts between senior Iraqi officials and members of al Qaeda going back for actually quite a long time."

"We know too that several of the detainees, in particular some high-ranking detainees, have said that Iraq provided some training to al Qaeda in chemical weapons development," Rice said.

"So, yes, there are contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda. We know that Saddam Hussein has a long history with terrorism in general. And there are some al Qaeda personnel who found refuge in Baghdad," she said. "There clearly are contacts between al Qaeda and Iraq that can be documented."

OH!! I get it now. Condi Rice is an Iraqi person. Stupid me.

Never mind... carry on...

 

[1BiGG1]

OH!! I get it now. Condi Rice is an Iraqi person. Stupid me.

Never mind... carry on...

Besides the quotes listed showing al Qaeda being trained by and living in Iraq it was clearly stated this ”information she said has been gleaned from captives in the ongoing war on terrorism{/i]. Now I’m not sure what part of the US being told by detainees some of them were living in Iraq you don’t understand but lets try another link.

Iraqi Official Testifies to Links Between Saddam and Al Qaeda - September 14, 2006 - The New York Sun

Saddam's Al Qaeda Connection

Please read and enjoy these two articles as when you are done we will both realize its game over for your argument, not just me.