Should Inmates Lose the Right to Sexual Relations?

[madame_zora]

Here's a suggestion, how about punishing all prison rape the same as if it had occured anywhere else, and an automatic death pentaly for the third rape conviction? I think there'd be very few who would be put to death wrongfully if they got three chances. I'm mainly furious about the repeat offenders who just keep going and going forever, I say dump them and move on. No one deserves to be raped, even if my brutal self believes in an eye for an eye (which I do) I can certainly see how that negates the rights of too many who are not involved in the issue. IMHO, anyone who is convicted of rape three times is never going to be rehabilitated, whether the victim be a child or a woman.

 

[surferboy]

I feel exactly the same as you Jana.

 

[Freddie53]

Originally posted by madame_zora@Apr 14 2005, 04:37 PM
Here's a suggestion, how about punishing all prison rape the same as if it had occured anywhere else, and an automatic death pentaly for the third rape conviction? I think there'd be very few who would be put to death wrongfully if they got three chances. I'm mainly furious about the repeat offenders who just keep going and going forever, I say dump them and move on. No one deserves to be raped, even if my brutal self believes in an eye for an eye (which I do) I can certainly see how that negates the rights of too many who are not involved in the issue. IMHO, anyone who is convicted of rape three times is never going to be rehabilitated, whether the victim be a child or a woman.

[post=300688]Quoted post[/post]​

I don't know if capital punishment is that efficient. Usually it is years between a crime and an a execution. And few that who receive capital punishment sentences actualy are executed. So, after the third conviction and that includes prison rapes, I suugest that the prisoner be put in consolitary cofinement the rest of his life: A small room, cot, chair, and adequate food and medical treatment. No TV. No books. Only medication to keep him docile if needed. Now if a state allows for capital punishment and will actually carry it out, I have no problem with it.

 

[Leung]

Originally posted by Freddie53+Apr 14 2005, 11:05 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Freddie53 &#064; Apr 14 2005, 11:05 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-madame_zora@Apr 14 2005, 04:37 PM
Here&#39;s a suggestion, how about punishing all prison rape the same as if it had occured anywhere else, and an automatic death pentaly for the third rape conviction? I think there&#39;d be very few who would be put to death wrongfully if they got three chances. I&#39;m mainly furious about the repeat offenders who just keep going and going forever, I say dump them and move on. No one deserves to be raped, even if my brutal self believes in an eye for an eye (which I do) I can certainly see how that negates the rights of too many who are not involved in the issue. IMHO, anyone who is convicted of rape three times is never going to be rehabilitated, whether the victim be a child or a woman.

[post=300688]Quoted post[/post]​

I don&#39;t know if capital punishment is that efficient. Usually it is years between a crime and an a execution. And few that who receive capital punishment sentences actualy are executed. So, after the third conviction and that includes prison rapes, I suugest that the prisoner be put in consolitary cofinement the rest of his life: A small room, cot, chair, and adequate food and medical treatment. No TV. No books. Only medication to keep him docile if needed. Now if a state allows for capital punishment and will actually carry it out, I have no problem with it.

[post=300692]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]

I cannot believe that anyone is condoning capital punishment&#33; Capital punishment has been shown to have absolutely no effect on crime. If anything crime rates appear to be higher in areas where capital punishment is allowed. Anyway, if you believe that execution will be a better punishment then life without a chance of bail then consider the main cause of death of the convicted on death row.... old age. And besides, Madame Zora, it is important to remember "an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind"...

 

[Dr Rock]

Originally posted by Freddie53@Apr 14 2005, 10:05 PM
So, after the third conviction and that includes prison rapes, I suugest that the prisoner be put in consolitary cofinement the rest of his life: A small room, cot, chair, and adequate food and medical treatment. No TV. No books. Only medication to keep him docile if needed.

[post=300692]Quoted post[/post]​

makes no odds, most people would die within a few years under those conditions anyway. the fact that people seem unable to face is that a lifetime jail sentence is exactly the same as a death sentence to all intents and purposes - if they&#39;re never getting out of jail, you might as well kill them immediately and save everyone the trouble, cos they&#39;re gonna die in there anyway.

 

[steve319]

I know I promised to shut up and listen in this topic from now on, but, well, I guess I&#39;m just a big stinking liar&#33;

You guys are so thoughtful and well-spoken&#33;

I have trouble with capital punishment too. I&#39;m not sure it helps anything at all, but I&#39;m sure it&#39;s giving up on another life. "Even God (or whatever redeeming element we prefer) can&#39;t save that one&#33;"

I have to admit, though, that I&#39;m kind of skeptical that rapists or pedophiles can be rehabilitated at all. Not that I&#39;m saying we shouldn&#39;t try (just the opposite), but that I don&#39;t know if we can "fix" those disorders. By that same token, I&#39;m not sure they should ever be released into the public if we can&#39;t.

Even chemical or surgical castration doesn&#39;t always stop them either. Molestation (and rape for that matter) can and do occur even in the absence of libido or sex organs.

On the other hand, life without parole leaves the inmate in a state of mind where he feels he has nothing to lose. Such an outlook increases the likelihood that he will commit further crimes on the inside (raping or killing other inmates or even officers).

We really should separate non-violent and first-time offenders from the more hardened criminals.

*loving reading everyone&#39;s thoughtful observations&#33;*

 

[Freddie53]

Originally posted by Dr Rock+Apr 14 2005, 09:27 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dr Rock &#064; Apr 14 2005, 09:27 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Freddie53@Apr 14 2005, 10:05 PM
So, after the third conviction and that includes prison rapes, I suugest that the prisoner be put in consolitary cofinement the rest of his life: A small room, cot, chair, and adequate food and medical treatment. No TV. No books. Only medication to keep him docile if needed.

[post=300692]Quoted post[/post]​

makes no odds, most people would die within a few years under those conditions anyway. the fact that people seem unable to face is that a lifetime jail sentence is exactly the same as a death sentence to all intents and purposes - if they&#39;re never getting out of jail, you might as well kill them immediately and save everyone the trouble, cos they&#39;re gonna die in there anyway.

[post=300727]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]
True, that might be a little too draconian, but at least the solitary confinement would have to be used to prevent another rape in prison.

Here is America, it is way less than 5 percent of murderers who are executed. And has been pointed out it seems that murder rate is higher in places with capital punishment than in places that don&#39;t have it.

And I know that castration doesn&#39;t solve everything, but it does do one thing. It does take away some of that power that a rapist strives to have.

There is no perfect answer. Some want to say it is a mental problem and the predators should be in treatment centers and not prisons.

I do know this. As a society we just can&#39;t allow people in authority raping or molesting those under them. Period.

That just can&#39;t be condoned.


These are the situations when I sometimes wish we could still use the strap on prisoners. They should have to feel the pain they have inflicted on others.

All have posted from the heart and we are all in agreement on what we think of these deviates. I just wish we could stop molestation and rape now and forever more.

The best prevention is giving boys respect of themselves and teaching character when they are very young. Maybe we need to be busy about teaching our young people and spoting those molestations when they happening. Many rapists were themselves molested as children. There should be more to school that just learning to read. Our public schools offer our best hope of character building and spoting molestation.

We must work to break this vicious cycle in early childhood by education and character building. Character building can be done in a religion neutral setting.

I know some who think schools should just teach reading, writing and arithmetic. There is a lot more to teach if we are to have a civilized society. Respect, tolerence, character, honesty, compassion and the list goes on. If our students learned and practiced these traits then they wouldn&#39;t be rapists when they got older.

No, it won&#39;t stop every rape or molestation, but if it stops one, that one is important to the one that didn&#39;t get raped or molested.

 

[madame_zora]

Leung, I already used that quote, I know it well. I would not suggest that capital punishment deters crime, but it&#39;s completely absurd to infer that it increases it, where do you get your info? I don&#39;t think there&#39;s any way to keep the insane from doing whatever they are going to do, I was only saying that we need to keep them from hurting anyone else at all cost, obviously you don&#39;t agree. Some facts: as long as they live they have a CHANCE to get out, or to rape again on the inside. I say, after three, remove all chance. I&#39;d rather remove a repeat perpetrator than allow him to continue raping at will. Perhaps you care more about his rights than the rights of those he will ineivitably hurt, so we disagree. Another fact: we don&#39;t have enough facilites to warehouse in solitary every repeat rapist in the system. If you&#39;re going to make a suggestion, it must be possible to carry it out. At the present time, most of our prisons are overcrowded as it is. Even at it&#39;s exhorbitant cost, capital punishment will cut down (at least slightly) on the space these men take up, eventually.

My point in suggesting capital punishment is not punitive, but more of a safety factor for the rest of society. If you drive drunk too many times, you lose your right to drive because others are at risk. If you call in sick to work too many times, you lose your right to work there because others have to make up for you. I feel if you rape too many people, you lose your right to live in a free society because others aren&#39;t safe with you around. We can&#39;t have mass chaos or no one is really free. Just an opinion, I know how many people hate the thought of capital punsihment, I no huge fan myself, but until we have a more effective system of rehabilitation, we are stuck with the current reality that rapists don&#39;t get well and rape again at alarming rates. It comes down to this- whose rights do you care about more?

 

[blackwood]

Originally posted by steve319@Apr 10 2005, 05:35 AM
OK, here’s a new issue to discuss. Should inmates lose any right to sexual relations once incarcerated?

Currently, only six U.S. states allow conjugal/overnight visits with spouses, and in most cases, of course, an application process must be followed and conditions must be met (legal marriage, good behavior, participation in rehabilitative programs, etc.). I should also mention that these visits aren’t necessarily limited to time with spouses but are also utilized for time with kids or immediate family members.

Some argue that allowing such visits helps keep the inmate connected with society at large, increasing the likelihood of successful reintegration upon release and, at least theoretically, reducing the likelihood of committing further crimes against society at large. In addition, it can be argued that allowing for the release of sexual tension helps reduce the incidence of rape in prison (an enormous problem) and improve inmate morale overall, thereby making the prison setting safer for everyone.

On the flipside, many feel that the privilege of sexual contact is one of the rights that should be lost once a person is imprisoned—that felons sacrifice this right once they choose to commit the crime. Additionally, the threat of complete loss of sexual contact might create another incentive to stay out of prison in the first place.

Let’s complicate things just a tiny bit more, shall we?

If allowed, should these visits be limited only to legally married couples?

The occurrence of inmate rape, besides being morally reprehensible, is serving to make HIV/AIDS and Hepatitis B virtual epidemics “on the inside.” And before we’re too quick to write that off, remember that many of these infected men eventually come home to spouses.

Finally, we get to the news story that brought this up. I saw on CNN a week or so back that South Africa’s Judicial Inspectorate of Prisons has recommended that allowing consensual sex among inmates would reduce prisoner rape and that providing condoms would slow the spread of disease (South Africa has the second-highest rate of HIV infection in the world). Needless to say, this has become a very controversial notion. Proponents have also suggested that this policy would make it easier to distinguish between situations of consensual and coercive sex, which is prevalent behind bars.

Having spent a number of years teaching incarcerated felons, I have an interest in prison reform and inmate rehabilitation. You guys are a highly intelligent, diverse, compassionate, and open-minded group, and I have really enjoyed reading and learning from everyone’s posts and opinions. I would love to gauge the LPSG’s reaction to these issues.

Thanks, guys&#33;

(why can&#39;t I write a short post for once?)

[post=299090]Quoted post[/post]​

YES&#33;

blackwood

 

[Leung]

Originally posted by madame_zora@Apr 15 2005, 08:47 AM
Leung, I already used that quote, I know it well. I would not suggest that capital punishment deters crime, but it&#39;s completely absurd to infer that it increases it, where do you get your info? I don&#39;t think there&#39;s any way to keep the insane from doing whatever they are going to do, I was only saying that we need to keep them from hurting anyone else at all cost, obviously you don&#39;t agree. Some facts: as long as they live they have a CHANCE to get out, or to rape again on the inside. I say, after three, remove all chance. I&#39;d rather remove a repeat perpetrator than allow him to continue raping at will. Perhaps you care more about his rights than the rights of those he will ineivitably hurt, so we disagree. Another fact: we don&#39;t have enough facilites to warehouse in solitary every repeat rapist in the system. If you&#39;re going to make a suggestion, it must be possible to carry it out. At the present time, most of our prisons are overcrowded as it is. Even at it&#39;s exhorbitant cost, capital punishment will cut down (at least slightly) on the space these men take up, eventually.

My point in suggesting capital punishment is not punitive, but more of a safety factor for the rest of society. If you drive drunk too many times, you lose your right to drive because others are at risk. If you call in sick to work too many times, you lose your right to work there because others have to make up for you. I feel if you rape too many people, you lose your right to live in a free society because others aren&#39;t safe with you around. We can&#39;t have mass chaos or no one is really free. Just an opinion, I know how many people hate the thought of capital punsihment, I no huge fan myself, but until we have  a more effective system of rehabilitation, we are stuck with the current reality that rapists don&#39;t get well and rape again at alarming rates. It comes down to this- whose rights do you care about more?

[post=300765]Quoted post[/post]​

Hey Madame Zora, I didn&#39;t mean to offend you by my comments. If I did I am very sorry.
I can&#39;t for the life of me remember where I got my info, but I shall have a look around, I think it was something for the EU.
It&#39;s not that I care more about the rights of the rapist, it is that I cannot condone murder, on any level. The thought of killing someone as an act of revenge would just make us as bad as them.
That is where the "eye for an eye" logic falls down. For rapists the execution would be a dispropotionate punishment to the crime.
Not all criminals are the same, and giving them all the same punishment would be immoral, despite their crime.
The key issue to address is rehabilitation, many criminals are put into prison and left to fester over the year and if they are ever released they would be released in a worse state them when they went in. If these criminals underwent rehabilitation and were only released when they were considered "not at risk" or "of a less risk" and could then be monitered if they were released.
I don&#39;t believe that everyone can be rehabilitated, but I do believe that we have to at least try.
In any case I stongly believe that capital punishment serves absolutely no use, it does not deter crime, which is what is it meant for, so its only use could be revenge. The use of capital punishment is considered globally as barbaric. Membership to the EU will only be considered if they applicant state does not use it.

Again, I hope I didn&#39;t offend you, it is just that the thought of taking anyones life, no matter what the circumstances, just seems wrong. There are other ways.


EDIT: This site has some interesting facts anf figures http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=167
"States Without the Death Penalty Have Better Record on Homicide Rates"
"The authors did find higher violent crime rates in death penalty counties."
"Homicide Rates Fall in Canada After Abolition of Death Penalty "

 

[madame_zora]

Leung, I also apologise, I get overly upset on this issue because of my own personal expeiriences, I should not have directed that specifically at you. Of the many misfortunes I&#39;ve survived, rape was the hardest to try to get over, obviously I&#39;m not done 15 years later. I have an impossible time remaining impartial on the subject so perhaps I&#39;d do well to stay out of this one. I just think it&#39;s important to consider every angle of of the impact on society, I do not believe in capital punishment used liberally, but on third time offenders, yeah, why not? If what had happened to me had happened to my daughter, I&#39;d want him dead. Not punitive, just reassurance that no one else would suffer the same thing at the hands of the same sick mind. If we had successful rehabilitation programs, perhaps I&#39;d feel different, but as it stands almost nothing is being done to protect women and children from these madmen and it infuritaes me. I spent almost two years unable to answer my own door for fear that the man who raped me had found me (this after about six moves in two years).

I don&#39;t mean to belittle anyone&#39;s personal beliefs and I would feel very much the same as you had I not gone through what I did. Being that I have, I felt that a word from the other side was worth hearing, I wish we could find better solutions to these problems, but until that time comes, I guess my knee-jerk reaction is just to get rid of them and let their God deal with them, we as a society are paying too high a price.

 

[Leung]

Oh my Madame Zora, I am so very sorry. If I had know I would not have pushed the subject. It is completely understandable for you not to be unbiased on the subject. I cannot say, in all honesty, that if I had gone through the same ordeal I would not have the same views. In fact I probably would be right up in the front lines with a noose. I hope for everyone&#39;s sake that one day (hopefully sooner rather then later) a rehabilitation system that works is implimented, no-one deserves to be treated that way. Maybe one day people will truely respect one another and none of this will have to be discussed.

 

[madame_zora]

Well, I try hard to admit that I&#39;m an asshole openly and often to cover all bases&#33; I didn&#39;t tell you that to make you feel bad, it was 15 years ago after all. I guess I&#39;m such a black-and-white thinker sometimes partially because it has been an important part of my recovery. I have found that "the grey area" was often where I lumped things I didn&#39;t want to deal with. Seeing them one way or another helped me to process things so there would be less roadblocks, I hope that makes sense. SO- that being said, there is a difference for me between ideology (what I wish could be) and reality (what we are stuck with). In our reality, in the short term, there IS no rehabilitaion, so I was thinking of possible options to keep women and children safe. Right now. I can&#39;t think in abstract terms like "This is what I HOPE happpens at some undisclosed time in the future IF x,y,and z fall into place, and my higher conscience can be served." I think more in terms of "Situation "A" is BAD and I want to make it STOP. It&#39;s not punishment, just trying to find a way to make it stop. The only way I KNOW will work is to kill repeat offenders. That WILL be effective in stopping that offender, there&#39;s no argument there.

I don&#39;t believe in the concept of deterrants, the insane think they&#39;ll never be caught and laugh at the stupidity of others who are caught. Nothing will stop them but their own demise. If even the brutal conditions of prison could be a deterrant, we&#39;d see less repeat offenses, but since that&#39;s not the case, I&#39;m left believing the repeaters are mad dogs that (at this time) we have no cure for. It&#39;s almost the kinder gentler thing for them too.

ps, I am absolutely NOT trying to win anyone over on this diatribe, just getting it out.

 

[wonderland]

I work in a prison, for sexual offenders, and EVERYONE there knows the inmates have sex with one another; eventhough it says in the handbook that it is not allowed. If these guys knew how to follow the rules they wouldn&#39;t be here in the first place.

It is terrible that condoms are not provided for inmates. In my position I know the medical history of these guys. When I hear through the grapevine who was caught having sex with whom I get nauseated. Only two inmates "offically" have HIV. Plus there are other sexual transmitted disease that some of the inmates have. When a few of the guys have sex with many of the others I have to beleive there is a much larger group that is getting infected. The state should be ashamed of themselves to pretend that isn&#39;t happening.

Considering what these guys are in for I don&#39;t think any of them should be allowed to have sex with people from the outside. Many of the inmates are chemically castrated which does help cut down on their sexual urges, but not all of it. I know that some of the chemically treated inmates are still having sex. We often sit around and try to think of what could be done to stop this problem and come up with no answer: at least no legal solution.