should M-F transexuals be treated as women?

Discussion in 'Women's Issues' started by dolfette, Sep 4, 2009.

  1. dolfette

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    BBC NEWS | UK | Transsexual wins prison transfer

    i think i agree with the decision.
    what do you think?
    on the one hand, she wants to be a woman...
    on the other hand, attempted rape...
    but then women sexually assault each other and don't get sent to men's prisons...

    *ponder*
     
  2. kazooplayer

    kazooplayer New Member

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    No.

    You have every right to do with your body what you please, but there are some things you can't change, your sex being one of them.
     
  3. Industrialsize

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    They absolutely should be treated as women..........hell, they can get new passports.
     
  4. dolfette

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    so...


    if you had a person with breasts and a vagina,
    you would put them in a men's prison?

    her? http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1173/997131331_6158d63401.jpg
    her? http://english.people.com.cn/200512/01/images/transvestite1.jpg

    there's a reason men & women are kept in separate prisons.
    if you put post op M-F transsexuals in there what will happen?
     
  5. teasedsilly

    teasedsilly Member

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    First of all my heart bleeds for violent criminals, it really does. But I do think it's the job of government to see to the safety of inmates during their sentence, whatever their crime. So regardless of whether this person should be considered a man or woman, my concern would be his/her safety in a male prison. I can see a special exception made in this case.

    But personally, I would consider a person in this situation a man with a serious mental illness, not a woman no matter how many disfigurements he's undergone. Sorry but feelings don't make a thing so.

    That said "it's a free country" and if he wants to look and behave like a woman, and if his friends are willing to treat him like a woman, it's not for me to stop it. And I might go along with it too just not to be rude. But in the end, no I wouldn't consider him a woman.
     
  6. dolfette

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    clarify, teasedsilly...you consider transgender to be a mental illness?
     
  7. teasedsilly

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    I don't mean that in a disparaging way, but yes. If a man believes he is really a woman, I'd qualify that as a mental illness. But I won't speculate as to the cause, I'm neither a psychologist nor a medical doctor.
     
  8. ellehutton

    ellehutton Member

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    But Gender & Sex are notably different things;)
    Most of the time they match up, sometimes they don't- that is not necessarily an illness. (the you open up the debate about truly intersexed people, born with both)

    To me it's kind of like saying for example: blacks should stay with blacks & whites with whites...what about people like me who are 50/50 half white - half black? (do we have to pick a side and stay to it even if half of us is made up of something you just can't see but is there & real???)


    I don't know this is a very difficult case because the subject is a criminal & not a free person.
     
    #8 ellehutton, Sep 4, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2009
  9. teasedsilly

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    Could you elaborate? What is the difference?
     
  10. dolfette

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    where would you put a hermaphrodite?
     
  11. ellehutton

    ellehutton Member

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    (Websters dictionary of Sex)
    1 : either of the two major forms of individuals that occur in many species and that are distinguished respectively as female or male especially on the basis of their reproductive organs and structures

    (Websters dictionary of Gender)
    2 b : the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex.

    As in your sex is the physical trait & gender is the mental.
    Most of the time they fall right in line with each other but just as with everything in humanity there is a variance (like straight men who act very effeminate or Butch women, would you say that they were ill? or just "different?")
     
    #11 ellehutton, Sep 4, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2009
  12. teasedsilly

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    I don't know enough about the condition to say. What do doctors say? Do all hermaphrodites develop in the same way?
     
  13. teasedsilly

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    But isn't this just another way of saying the same thing? To be transgender means to self-identify as the opposite sex. Is that correct?

    Is it true that an effeminite man identifies himself as a woman? I thought that was an unrelated issue. I wouldn't lump these things together. There is actually a thread here on femininity and at least one poster commented that she felt forced by society to behave in a feminine way. But I don't think that meant she considered herself male.

    As to difference vs illness, I am hesitant to say anything because of the potential direction of this conversation. I try to respect the way people live their own lives and I'm not here to approve or disapprove of others. Nor am I out to "cure" the transgenders of the world, if that's even possible. Are you happy with the way you are? If you are then I'm not going to say you should change.

    But if you really want to know, I think most people suffer from one form of mental illness or another, of varying degrees. It could be anxiety, depression, or a phobia. My amateur and unqualified opinion is that many people suffer because they are unable to accept some aspect of reality, which creates internal conflict. Sometimes the cause is conscious, sometimes it's not. And both environment and chemistry can contribute. I think that rejecting ones sex is a pretty serious form of illness, rather than just a different path of development (like a girl being a tomboy), but whether it's something that can be changed, or if it's worth changing? That would depend on the individual circumstance.

    Anyway I know that someone will interpret this to mean I'm a raving bigot, despite all the qualifiers, but that's what I think.
     
  14. B_Monster

    B_Monster New Member

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    ABSOLUTELY yes, especially if thats she wants
     
  15. Symphonic

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    Yes. The safety of the person in question would be greatly increased if treated otherwise.
     
  16. MarkLondon

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    A complication in this particular case is that the pre-op transexual is a violent individual who has killed a man and attepted to rape a woman.

    Should the rights of the transexual override the right of women prisoners not to be incarcerated with a violent sexual predator who may have breasts but still posesses a functioning penis?

    The catch-22 in this situation is that in order to qualify for surgery on the NHS, a transexual man has to live as a woman for a minumum of six months. Which in the context of imprisonment means being in a women's prison. Before the op.
     
  17. Symphonic

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    No. Transgendered persons recognize themselves as the opposite gender, which is not necessarily linked to sex. A male woman or female man for instance; you recognize this behavior as normal in "tom-girls", and abnormal for the most part as "drag queens". Transsexuals however wish to actually change to the opposite sex, physically, and this may not effect their gender. A male who is born feeling that he should be a female may still retain many if not all qualities of being a "man" in society. Also contrary to popular notion your sexuality and your transsexual or transgender behaviors do not correlate directly. Not all MtF's are "gay".
    The term illness is too loosely used for clarity. Illnesses are always harmful, and mental illness if not conditional is always detrimental. So the question is whether conditional illnesses are all that bad; in most cases the answer is no. Being afraid of spiders never really killed anyone ( sans those who fell off of ladders? ) however a non-conditional mental illness with no recognized external trigger is serious business, such as the infamous schizophrenia or the lesser known MPDD, or even common depression.

    Coping mechanisms are dependent however, not independent, so you're not covering enough of the spectrum. Transsexuality, transgenderism, and gender based disorders are considered to be independent, I.E. they cannot be induced by outer forces, therefore they do not fit your definition well.
    It is better to know than to guess.
     
  18. Symphonic

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    I'm confused; if what you're saying is viablethen gay rapists can't go to male prisons, or vice versa, right?
     
  19. MarkLondon

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    I'm not saying, I'm questioning.

    I don't think this specific case is a typical or easy instance of whether M-F transexuals should be treated as women in general.
     
  20. Neveragain4

    Neveragain4 New Member

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    ???? dead is dead!!! rape is rape!!! Why should the person that committed these crimes be allowed anything other then the same punishment? how can they be rewarded by hormone pills, surguries and relocation to another facility because of being transexual?
    Maybe the people they killed and raped wanted something different in their lives? They are dead and raped! Nothing will ever change that. What about the families of the victims? Maybe they want ten million dollars or 100 million? Are they going to get it? NO! But the transexual will get everything "IT" wants at taxpayers expense. If "IT" wants to change its sex then leave "IT" where "ITs" at and put "IT" in lockdown for the rest of "ITs" life. "IT's more then "IT" gave the victims. Whats next? bring So Damn Insane back from the dead and give him the world? Im sure this is going to piss people off, but Damn the bad luck.
     
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