Should spanking kids be illegal? (Canada)

[Principessa]

https://mantis.csuchico.edu/login?url=http://search.ebscohost.com/login.aspx?direct=true&db=psyh&AN=2002-01514-001&site=ehost-live

Some psychological research suggests that the use of corporal punishment does not provide children with the learning opportunities that come with consistent verbal conflict resolution. One of the problems with corporal punishment is that some parents hit their children out of anger and many children die yearly.
It's important to understand some of the cultural issues. For example, many years ago I worked with youth in rural Georgia. There it was totally commonplace for boys, especially teenagers, to be whipped with a belt. In many cases, these children could explain the predictable consequenses of specific behaviors. For example, lying to one's parents would result in three licks. These boys did not seem traumatized, in the least, by this kind of discipline.
Dave

Of course they weren't traumatized. There is a HUGE difference between spanking, whipping, and beating the crap out of your child. the first 2 are disciplinary actions the latter is abusive.

I think the most important thing about what you wrote is that those boys who were occassionally spanked knew that their actions had consequences. Perhaps if parents wern't so GD permissive these days and set boundaries and rules early on, laws like this wouldn't exist.

In our house mom was the disciplinarian. Dad was usually at work when I was acting up and it made no sense to my mother to make me wait for a punishment and I agree. I wasn't what one would call a bad or even mischievious child; however I was spanked with an open hand as a child. I do recall once she hit me with my daddys belt. It's the only whipping for which I can still remember why I got whipped. I had told a lie about my cousin that made her get a whipping. My cousin and I used to stay with my fathers mother a lot. When my mom came to pick me up Nana would summarize our activities for her. My mom knew when my nana told her the events of the day that I was at fault and not my cousin and that I had intentionally lied to get her in trouble. That's why I got whipped. The smacks I used to get on the back of the hand or on my bottom I only vaguely remember and couldn't begin to tell you what I had done to receive them.

I agree. I was never spanked as a kid. Not once.

Well aren't you friggin' special! :tongue:

My parents were older and more clever than that. I think parents should exert themselves to rise above physical violence as an attention getting device.

'scuse you! I resent the implication that your parents due to age or whatever are more intelligent than my parents or anyone elses. My parents were older than those of my peers as well. My mother never hit me with a stick, switch, or anything else other than one time with a belt. She also never hit me with her fist.

How do we know your parents weren't just lazy or that you weren't some bland milktoast of a child who never did anything warranting a spanking...

 

[vince]

My parents had seven kids and never hit us. We would get yelled at plenty and we would would get all the usual disciplinary stuff like grounding, extra chores, going to bed early, no TV, etc.

I once asked my mum why they never hit or spanked us. She said that we learned the meaning of the word NO, before anything else, before we learned to walk and therefore never really did anything bad enough to warrant a beating. (I think we were just clever enough not to get caught, but don't tell her that!)

I followed her advice with my kid and never had to hit her.

I don't think spanking should be banned. For one thing, it would be an enforcement nightmare. I only have my own experience to go on and that doesn't mean I am in a position to judge what other parents do on this issue. I know other kids who got spanked and they turned out alright.

I agree that first time parents in charge of babies should be given some parenting lessons. We spend more time teaching kids how to drive than how to raise children.

 

[DC_DEEP]

It's clear which side of the fence you are on, DC. I was interested in a teacher's persepective.
<...>
It seems that if kids are people, which they certainly appear to be, then spanking them is assault. The perpetrators should be jailed--even if they are the parents.

I think you misunderstood my point, rec. I would start a flame war, though, if I expounded too deeply. All I meant was that some laws (within a single jurisdiction) make it clear that in some situations, a child is the property of the parent, to do with as the parent pleases (example withheld). Some laws make it clear that a parent is simply a ward for the child, a caretaker (such as laws that require a parent to have a child vaccinated). Some laws make it clear that a parent is not permitted to make decisions for the child, who may make his own decisions (such as the spanking laws.) I actually lean more toward the "ward" legalities. If the law leans toward defining a child as the parent's ward, rather than property, it gives a better balance of the child's rights and the parent's responsibilities.

I think MR was headed in the right direction with her explanations. Verbal skills are an important indicator, but comprehension - understanding right from wrong and understanding the relationship between infraction and consequence is key. All children learn to talk at different ages, and begin to use logic at different ages, so having an arbitrary "cutoff' age is meaningless. But under a certain age, children just simply do not understand that little talk you have with them. I certainly don't advocate beating, but a two-year-old usually understands a swat on the ass better than "you should not hit Susie, because she has feelings, too" or "no PlayStation for a week if you talk back to me." Ground rules should be set early, and firmly. Then as the child begins to develop decision-making skills, bartering for good behavior may be more effective.

Spanking or not spanking, though, I think is less of an issue. As WoB already mentioned, there are already laws on the books against beating and physical abuse. Other than being a very loving parent, my Mom's most effective (and probably the most difficult for her) parenting technique was consistency. Her policy was "I will only tell you once. After that, you are responsible for the consequences." If she said "no," we knew she meant it. If she said "carry out the trash" or "mow the yard," we knew she meant it. It was not negotiable. Procrastinating was not an option.

Unfortunately, being a firm and consistent parent is hard work, and more than a simple majority of parents just do not care to expend the effort. A lot of kids grow up learning that they can pretty much do whatever they please; the worst consequence is going to be enduring a borrrring 10-minute yak-yak session with Mom as the talking head.

Example: about a week ago, on the tennis courts near my home, a mother and her two young children were playing at tennis. I heard her say, "Tyler, it's your sister's turn now. Please give the racquet to Megan." Then I heard her repeat it. I started counting. She told him a total of 11 times (!) before he finally relinquished possession. I can't help but think a swat on the butt would have been more effective than the last ten times she blabbed at him.

I'd rather make you do chores as your punishment. Go clean the oven.

Ah, but then you are creating negative reinforcement where it needs to be positive. You should never use as punishment something that you want a child to learn is a good thing. When I was teaching, I never used reading or writing as a punishment. I knew other teachers who would punish students by making them write sentences (a la Bart Simpson) or do a short report on something. I never wanted my students to associate those things with punishment.

 

[Tattooed Goddess]

dc, is this the first issue we've agreed on? Well let the skies open up and the sun shine come in!

 

[rbkwp]

On the other side of the coin...Life Imprisonment is not out of order for this child,s Caregiver.
enz

Kids' tremendous will to live
June 20 2008 at 03:06PM
The little boy's body was a study in pain.

IOL: Kids' tremendous will to live

 

[DC_DEEP]

dc, is this the first issue we've agreed on? Well let the skies open up and the sun shine come in!

Contrary to popular belief, I'm not all bad!:biggrin1:

 

[D_Marazion Analdouche]

Not so. When I was a kid a parent would have had to land their child in the hospital before anyone even noticed, if then. It was only after some huge problems that awareness was raised regarding child abuse.

With all do respect, how long ago was that? Times have changed and teachers etc taking notice with obvious abuse has changed dramatically. I was at a day care as a child almost 30 years ago that was shut down for abuse. I only went there after school for a few hours but saw the husband and wife smacking the kids around. My parents would boot me in the ass once in while but I knew the difference between that and a "beating". I told my folks they talked to other parents, it was looked into and the place was closed and they did get some jail time.

So, what is it? Can I come up to you on the street and give you a "whack on the ass"? If it's not physical violence, then it's OK. Bend over!

Rediculous statement and dismissed completely. A little different than someone tapping their own kid on the ass. You're not my parent, laughable statement just to make an attempt at being right.

I dont think all children would respond to the same methods in the same way. A short sharp spank would work for some and a stern telling off would work for others. There is no exact formula for raising children to be decent, caring and respectful adults. Most parents just do their best & then hope for the best.

That's is the exact point. I do no advocate spanking as the first line of punishing a kid, even the second, third etc. It should be allowed as an option. My oldest washaving a very difficult time with his mother and I's divorce. He would get really pissed some days, flaked out in school, threw tantrums etc. I've never spanked him during any of this or used it to make him see what he's doing.

I spend time speaking with with him, explain to him how much everyone still loves him, how it's not his fault and he still needs to do well in school to do well for himself as well as make me proud. He's been remarkable ever since. I withhold from resorting to phyiscal discipline because I understand he's going through a lot.

Being a part of society sucks, doesn't it?

Yes it does, more so when people who don't know what they are talking about try and dictate policy.

At the end of the day nobody understand what is needed to raise their kid accept the parents. I don't care if you hold a Phd in child behavior, or you're a government offical, even more so if you don't have children or have raised a child.

We have enough laws telling us what we can and cannot do, if there isn't abuse, mind your own business.

 

[B_Austin Blue]

I dont see spanking as a violent act, i do see where it could be termed as such when people lose control. My daughter has been spanked as a concenquence and was warned ahead of time that it was going to happen and it was very matter of fact. One or two swats on her butt, not in a violent manner. I wasnt yelling and screaming at her.

I've experienced and been around a lot of kids who have been verbally abused as a form of punishment, and its not nearly as affective as a swat or two on the bum if you ask me.

Some kids can't be reasoned with, some kids also cant comprehend the communication no matter how many times you tell them to stop messing with the cat. A little bit of physical pain does get the message through.

It's always the people who never have kids who set these kinds of rules for other people who do.

Hmm...how can anyone not see spanking as an act of violence is beyond me - sorry. If you were to spank an adult that you don't agree with, you'd be charged with assault, children need this protection. Parents do NOT have the right to inflict any form of physical punishment on anyone. I'll be glad when this law passes in Canada. I'd also be very glad if all children knew they could call the child help line 24 hours, 365 days a year for help if they are being hurt in any way, emotionally abused or physically. And yes, even a light spank isn't right - it's abuse. Do we go around spanking each other as adults, or course not! at least most of us don't! :wink:

 

[B_Austin Blue]

I remember a news story that made headlines in both Canada and the USA. An America tourist was in Canada at Wal-Mart. He was having a dispute with this young daughter. He pulled down her panties and spanked her on the trunk of his car. Horrified shoppers called the cops on him and he was charged. He was not only physically hurting the child, but also humiliating her in public by doing this in the parking lot. He thought he'd get away with this as i guess they don't do anything in the USA when this occurs.

 

[mista geechee]

I wonder when people will realize that every child isn't the same. Equating a spanking to child abuse is thi silliest thing I've heard this week. That's like saying that love and the hydrogen bomb are similar because they're both bright and hot.

Why do you think these kids do the things they do to day ? Fucking pregnancy pacts , school shootings , setting shit on fire in grocery stores...etc...etc. It's because parents have gone soft. They're more worried about rasing their kids by what a non parent thinks because that person's book was a best seller. Fucking ridiculous. Why do people insist on taking their personal experiences and applying them to the masses?

Yea Austin Blue , that does sound rather innappropriate , but spanking a child at home is ok. Just because it is beyond you doesn't mean it's wrong. Plus you (not specifically you) gotta have a pretty sick mind to instantly link physical discipline with sexual abuse.

For all the people that think every child can be simply talked too , stop living in fantasy land , or at least send me a ticket. If grown men can't even talk everything out , what makes you think an irrational child can be reasoned with by a passive parent.

Spanking has been going on for thousands of years. What all of a sudden makes it wrong? Anybody have a logical argument that's not a value based tirade ?

 

[D_Marazion Analdouche]

I remember a news story that made headlines in both Canada and the USA. An America tourist was in Canada at Wal-Mart. He was having a dispute with this young daughter. He pulled down her panties and spanked her on the trunk of his car. Horrified shoppers called the cops on him and he was charged. He was not only physically hurting the child, but also humiliating her in public by doing this in the parking lot. He thought he'd get away with this as i guess they don't do anything in the USA when this occurs.

Beating your kid in teh back seat of a car because you lost your temper is not "discipling" your child, it's abuse and sounds like he lost his temper.

Giving your kid a wack on the ass is not abuse nor does it scar them for life, period. How many kids do you have or raised?

 

[mista geechee]

I think you misunderstood my point, rec. I would start a flame war, though, if I expounded too deeply. All I meant was that some laws (within a single jurisdiction) make it clear that in some situations, a child is the property of the parent, to do with as the parent pleases (example withheld). Some laws make it clear that a parent is simply a ward for the child, a caretaker (such as laws that require a parent to have a child vaccinated). Some laws make it clear that a parent is not permitted to make decisions for the child, who may make his own decisions (such as the spanking laws.) I actually lean more toward the "ward" legalities. If the law leans toward defining a child as the parent's ward, rather than property, it gives a better balance of the child's rights and the parent's responsibilities.

I think MR was headed in the right direction with her explanations. Verbal skills are an important indicator, but comprehension - understanding right from wrong and understanding the relationship between infraction and consequence is key. All children learn to talk at different ages, and begin to use logic at different ages, so having an arbitrary "cutoff' age is meaningless. But under a certain age, children just simply do not understand that little talk you have with them. I certainly don't advocate beating, but a two-year-old usually understands a swat on the ass better than "you should not hit Susie, because she has feelings, too" or "no PlayStation for a week if you talk back to me." Ground rules should be set early, and firmly. Then as the child begins to develop decision-making skills, bartering for good behavior may be more effective.

Spanking or not spanking, though, I think is less of an issue. As WoB already mentioned, there are already laws on the books against beating and physical abuse. Other than being a very loving parent, my Mom's most effective (and probably the most difficult for her) parenting technique was consistency. Her policy was "I will only tell you once. After that, you are responsible for the consequences." If she said "no," we knew she meant it. If she said "carry out the trash" or "mow the yard," we knew she meant it. It was not negotiable. Procrastinating was not an option.

Unfortunately, being a firm and consistent parent is hard work, and more than a simple majority of parents just do not care to expend the effort. A lot of kids grow up learning that they can pretty much do whatever they please; the worst consequence is going to be enduring a borrrring 10-minute yak-yak session with Mom as the talking head.

Example: about a week ago, on the tennis courts near my home, a mother and her two young children were playing at tennis. I heard her say, "Tyler, it's your sister's turn now. Please give the racquet to Megan." Then I heard her repeat it. I started counting. She told him a total of 11 times (!) before he finally relinquished possession. I can't help but think a swat on the butt would have been more effective than the last ten times she blabbed at him.Ah, but then you are creating negative reinforcement where it needs to be positive. You should never use as punishment something that you want a child to learn is a good thing. When I was teaching, I never used reading or writing as a punishment. I knew other teachers who would punish students by making them write sentences (a la Bart Simpson) or do a short report on something. I never wanted my students to associate those things with punishment.

Damn I agree. Lemme run outside and see if those pigs are flying.

But seriously , it's funny how the only people who oppose spanking are the ones with no kids to raise or teach.

 

[westy30004]

I do....parents don't know when they cross the line from discipline to abuse. Outlawing it altogether wouldn't be good for those who aren't abusive but if it saves one child thats all that matters. Anybody hear of the 16 year old girl who was severly beaten by her grandmother? Allegedly the grandmother walked in on her granddaughter doing some lesbian action with a girl of the same age who lived next door. She then beat the girl until her cane broke in half and after that she beat the girl with the belt. The 60-something year old grandmother was arrested and charged with child abuse. Yes, maybe the girl shouldn't be doing what she did but its not against the law. What I don't understand is did the girl just stand there and let her grandmother beat her? Why didn't she put up a fight? This happened like last week

I'm sorry...but the "if it saves one life, child, dog, blah blah blah. that's all that matters" is the most absolutely stupid argument I ever hear do-gooders make...think of the lives that would be saved if we never drove cars, never walked down the street, or, for that matter, never left the house.....how fucking stupid and mindless....sorry to get off subject, but one of my soap box issues.

 

[Bbucko]

With all do respect, how long ago was that? Times have changed and teachers etc taking notice with obvious abuse has changed dramatically. I was at a day care as a child almost 30 years ago that was shut down for abuse. I only went there after school for a few hours but saw the husband and wife smacking the kids around. My parents would boot me in the ass once in while but I knew the difference between that and a "beating". I told my folks they talked to other parents, it was looked into and the place was closed and they did get some jail time.

With all due respect, I am twelve year older than you, not one hundred.

The day care scandals of the late 70s and early 80s had a huge impact on what was considered "abuse". That was precisely the point I was making. Society evolves with changing times, and that's a good thing.

If you read my posts carefully, you'll see that I'm conflicted. On the one hand, I don't believe in government intruding into people's private lives. On the other, I have seen abusive parenting hide behind the cloak of privacy (and not just in my home, in the homes of friends as well).

And I strongly disagree with the notion that we who chose to not be parents have no say in how kids should be raised. Today's kid next door is tomorrow's co-worker and neighbor. We all have a stake as a society to make sure kids turn out all right.

 

[D_Marazion Analdouche]

With all due respect, I am twelve year older than you, not one hundred.

The day care scandals of the late 70s and early 80s had a huge impact on what was considered "abuse". That was precisely the point I was making. Society evolves with changing times, and that's a good thing.

If you read my posts carefully, you'll see that I'm conflicted. On the one hand, I don't believe in government intruding into people's private lives. On the other, I have seen abusive parenting hide behind the cloak of privacy (and not just in my home, in the homes of friends as well).

And I strongly disagree with the notion that we who chose to not be parents have no say in how kids should be raised. Today's kid next door is tomorrow's co-worker and neighbor. We all have a stake as a society to make sure kids turn out all right.

The all due respect part was regarding your comment not your age. I was just pointing out that times due in fact change and we are not dealing with the same type of circumstances. So I apologize if you took it that way, that wasn't my intent.

This bothers me because what people do not see is the flip side of the argument. A higher percentage of parents use various types of discipline very well, some do not. Ones that abuse the power of being a parent should be punished no questions asked.

The flip side is, and it happens, are kids calling the cops when their parents haven't even laid a hand on them. The bratty snot nosed kids understands the "system" and takes advantage. Setting up laws that completely outlaw a parent putting a hand to their child is simply outrageous.

And I'll spare people from saying it.............

"I would rather save one abused child versus a kid calling the cops with false charges." You're not saving anyone, there are abuse laws in place for just that......abuse, spanking is not.

 

[Bbucko]

The all due respect part was regarding your comment not your age. I was just pointing out that times due in fact change and we are not dealing with the same type of circumstances. So I apologize if you took it that way, that wasn't my intent.

I figured so, but wasn't sure. Generally when someone begins a sentence with "with all due respect", it infers that what will follow could be interpreted as disrespectful. At any rate, we agree on the issue of day care scandals and how they helped shape public policy, at least in the greater Boston area.

This bothers me because what people do not see is the flip side of the argument. A higher percentage of parents use various types of discipline very well, some do not. Ones that abuse the power of being a parent should be punished no questions asked.

The flip side is, and it happens, are kids calling the cops when their parents haven't even laid a hand on them. The bratty snot nosed kids understands the "system" and takes advantage. Setting up laws that completely outlaw a parent putting a hand to their child is simply outrageous.

We also agree that laws governing child abuse are necessary. I think the big questions are:

1) By whose standards is the line drawn between discipline and abuse?

2) Whom can we trust that such standards are applied evenly?

I agree that a swat on the ass isn't abusive, especially when it's needed to get a child's attention. But many people do not. So who gets to decide?

 

[B_Austin Blue]

Any form of physical punishment would be abuse and illegal. I totally agree with this notion - nobody should be allowed to hit any child, softly or with a big whack. The idea that it is ok is to me insane. Sorry but hey, that's my thought.

My sister has a child and never spanks him. I wasn't spanked as a child either.

Sweden has laws that make it illegal to spank a child in any form. I can't wait for Canada to follow the Swedes.

Again, I would hope that all children in Canada are made aware of the children's help telephone line for any issues that are with them, abuse, suicide, bullies at school etc.

 

[marleyisalegend]

I understand people who disagree with it, but I wish spanking wouldn't be deemed "less clever." This depends on this use. There are tons of poor behaviors that were "spanked out of my system" and it goes both ways. Spanking is sometimes used as discipline, sometimes its an angry parent taking their frustration out on a child. Some kids sorely need a pop on the behind because time out and "no no no" doesn't do anything, these are the kids you see in the grocery store knocking down every box of cereal, kicking old women, and opening packages of cookies. The mom spends 20 minutes watching this and simply saying "no thats wrong" and the kid continues his monstrous tirade.

Whatever the method, kids NEED to be taught proper behavior through discipline. We now have an entire generation of spoiled brats that care only about their rights and want none of the responsibilities.

 

[B_Austin Blue]

I understand people who disagree with it, but I wish spanking wouldn't be deemed "less clever." This depends on this use. There are tons of poor behaviors that were "spanked out of my system" and it goes both ways. Spanking is sometimes used as discipline, sometimes its an angry parent taking their frustration out on a child. Some kids sorely need a pop on the behind because time out and "no no no" doesn't do anything, these are the kids you see in the grocery store knocking down every box of cereal, kicking old women, and opening packages of cookies. The mom spends 20 minutes watching this and simply saying "no thats wrong" and the kid continues his monstrous tirade.

Whatever the method, kids NEED to be taught proper behavior through discipline. We now have an entire generation of spoiled brats that care only about their rights and want none of the responsibilities.

Very well said - bad behavior is the fault of parents.

 

[B_Artful Dodger]

I think it comes down to purely different styles of parenting. Some people do it and others dont. It was done to me as a child... but I would never hit my kid. Too much of a wimp. lol
I dont see that making it illegal would make a difference anyway. People would still do if that is there style of parenting. It would still go on behind closed doors, just like underage drinking and stuff like that.