Should spanking kids be illegal? (Canada)

[DC_DEEP]

Punishment is not the same as discipline. Punishment teaches CONTROL BY OTHERS. Discipline teaches SELF CONTROL. Discipline is guiding children, teaching them they can trust us to help them learn the difference between right and wrong, without feeling afraid of us.

Children need to learn how to think for themselves. All children make mistakes and misbehave. They are trying to find out how the world works. They need limits, to keep them safe and teach them what behaviour is allowed.

I say it should be illegal because spanking is harmful. Children have the right to be treated with respect, regardless of age. We need to treat children the way we want to be treated. Hitting people is wrong and children are people too.

I was asked for my opinions and these are it. I am in no way trying to tell anyone how to parent. I am nowhere near a perfect parent. I joke with a few friends that I should probably start saving up to pay for my daughter's therapy bills when she's an adult. I am trying to be the best parent I can be and for me, it does not involve hitting/ spanking. I am stating my beliefs and the reasons behind them. It's not my job to tell people how to parent, I guess it's the government's.

You sound a little bit defensive, and that really was not my intent. I've developed a lot of respect for you since you joined.

I'm not sure how much of your post is your personal beliefs, and how much is something you learned in your parenting classes, but I have to say that although my parents were of the "corporal punishment" school, never in my life did I fear my parents, nor did I ever feel that they disrespected me.

I also see something of a disconnect between you saying "I think spanking should be illegal" and saying "I am in no way trying to tell anyone how to parent."

Are there any other areas of parenting that you think should be governed by legislation? Parents either do, or do not, have absolute authority over their minor children. (Again, please understand that I'm not baiting you, I'm genuinely interested - even fascinated - by the various views people have on these issues...)

 

[WifeOfBath]

I disagree. Children are a clean slate when they are born. They are innocent and whatever a parent does to teach them, directly and/or indirectly, affects how they will end up.

I don't know if what I'm going to say really has too much bearing on your thoughts on this issue, but the more we learn about temperament and personality in psychological research, the more it seems that children aren't all born with a clean slate. From things like potential for addiction to sensation-seeking behavior and on and on, each child is born with a different set of characteristics. It follows, then, that it is possible that every child will not be receptive to the same way of discipline. Maybe some kids need that sort of physical/tactile stimulation while being disciplined.

I respect your ability to rear a child without physical punishment, but I don't think its anywhere near fair to impose such a law without astronomical evidence that physical punishment is ineffective and/or harmful. To suggest it be banned without a complete understanding of its use/effects is almost absurd.

I completely agree with this. Giving children the power to get their parents into serious legal trouble over something that may or may not actually be all that harmful (and may be beneficial) seems dangerous. I don't want the state dictating how I raise my children as long as I am not harming them significantly more than the average parent does as they bumble through raising a child.

 

[DC_DEEP]

Dammit, I think I chased away Jenn. Honest, I was not trying to be confrontational.

Let me get a general concensus of the members posting on this thread... should I examine the broader related issues in this thread, or start a new thread? The spanking question does point at the bigger picture: how much micromanaging should the government do regarding parenting, and how much authority does the government actually have to do so?

Is that for here or a new thread?

 

[D_Relentless Original]

A while ago in my village i witnessed a child of around 5yrs old in a queue with his mother and grandmother, he was very disruptive, demanding , kicking people pushing stock over etc. His mother stood there and kept repeating " Please stop that baby, your making mummy sad " a few choice words came out of him followed by mother " your behaviour is offending me"he replied " shut the fuck up" and continued kicking a older lady in front of him.His Grandma smacked him on the butt and told him to stop it , he stopped, she made him apologise, he did, next breath a woman brought the police to the grandma and complained that she had witnessed the boy being smacked and it was out of order for someone to be treated like that, eventually all the family were led away by the police and social services was mentioned.
I was smacked by my mother when i was younger when i was ignoring her requests to behave, brought me up ok.

 

[B_625girth]

spanking out, eh??? I suppose belt whipping, and getting a board broke over your ass is out also. my dad did both of those things, but by age 5 I had learned, and none of that was needed. my wife and I spanked all 3 of my boys at one time or another, but not very much. I think the government needs to butt out of our business and families.

 

[WifeOfBath]

Dammit, I think I chased away Jenn. Honest, I was not trying to be confrontational.

Let me get a general concensus of the members posting on this thread... should I examine the broader related issues in this thread, or start a new thread? The spanking question does point at the bigger picture: how much micromanaging should the government do regarding parenting, and how much authority does the government actually have to do so?

Is that for here or a new thread?

It can't hurt if you make another thread. This is a really interesting topic.

 

[Bbucko]

Dammit, I think I chased away Jenn. Honest, I was not trying to be confrontational.

Let me get a general concensus of the members posting on this thread... should I examine the broader related issues in this thread, or start a new thread? The spanking question does point at the bigger picture: how much micromanaging should the government do regarding parenting, and how much authority does the government actually have to do so?

Is that for here or a new thread?

It can't hurt if you make another thread. This is a really interesting topic.

Starting a new thread would seem smarter because it expands the question beyond the spanking debate, which is the focus here.

But you know it will bring every libertarian on LPSG out of the woodwork.

 

[marleyisalegend]

I think we need to do a little research for this to be discussed properly and in depth, as the potential harmful consequences of physical punishment may surpass the benefits.

*hands BBucko a belt*

*drops pants*

*lays across bed*

*wiggles booty*

J/K!!! You may now return to your discussion.

 

[B_Jennuine73]

DC-I also see something of a disconnect between you saying "I think spanking should be illegal" and saying "I am in no way trying to tell anyone how to parent."

You are right. I am talking out of both sides of my mouth on that one. I guess in my defense I could say it's not me who is outlawing it, it's the government.

My parents believed in corporal punishment. All I learned was how not to get caught. There was no explaining, only yelling and hitting. I learned to fear them, to disrespect them and watched and recorded any hypocrisy. I learned I did not want to be like them.

And...disagreeing in a mutually respectful debate would never chase me away.

 

[DC_DEEP]

But you know it will bring every libertarian on LPSG out of the woodwork.

Excellent. This country needs more libertarians, and fewer liberals and conservatives and neoconservatives!:biggrin1:

I also see something of a disconnect between you saying "I think spanking should be illegal" and saying "I am in no way trying to tell anyone how to parent."

You are right. I am talking out of both sides of my mouth on that one. I guess in my defense I could say it's not me who is outlawing it, it's the government.

My parents believed in corporal punishment. All I learned was how not to get caught. There was no explaining, only yelling and hitting. I learned to fear them, to disrespect them and watched and recorded any hypocrisy. I learned I did not want to be like them.

Thank you for seeing my question for what it was.

I think that's a big part of the debate... a bit of experience shading everyone's philosophy. Not all parental corporal punishment consists solely of a beating. Your parents obviously used corporal punishment ineffectively, while mine used it effectively - it was part of a learning experience for me, not just simply a punishment.

And there are parents who use the no-contact style effectively, and those who use it ineffectively.

What I took away from the spankings I received as a child was not fear of my parents, or a bruised ego or damaged self-esteem. It was the concept that I am free to choose my course of action, but with the understanding that every action has consequences, and I had better be prepared to choose wisely. It was up to me to weigh possible gains against possible losses.

Even when I got past "the age of spanking," learning responsibility was still the style of parenting I received. If I came home late and missed dinner, it was up to me to prepare something for myself or go without. My hometown had a juvenile curfew, but my parents never set a home curfew - if I "got caught" out after curfew, it was up to me to figure out how to get home. If I broke my bicycle by doing something stupid, it was up to me to fix it or do without. When I started driving, if I got a ticket, it was my responsibility to pay it.

Somehow, I just don't see that my parents did a criminal job of raising me or my 5 siblings; we are all healthy, happy, educated, productive, responsible adults. None of us has ever been in jail. Only one has been divorced (after the baby, his wife decided she wasn't cut out for motherhood, and just left. Bro raised the kid on his own. Again, responsibility.)

 

[Tattooed Goddess]

I think the opinions expressed in this debate are very diverse.

The people who were never spanked tend to not believe in spanking. Their parents raised them without relying on it at all. Maybe these kids were more compliant, maybe they got away with more because of it, or maybe their parents were more communicative than the norm.

People who were spanked in the normal confines of corporal punishment tend to believe in it working because they can recall situations where it worked pretty good as a deterrant for them. They don't believe that spankings should be given for every little thing, but used when appropriate for certain behaviors where warnings are given ahead of time. They also tend to have preset boundaries they will not cross as to not go overboard.

People who were abused as children generally want to stay as far away from spanking as possible, often because the thought of getting violently out of hand with a child is more than they can bear to think about. The thought of putting a child through what they went through is very much a reality.

Let's face it that there are adults that require prison to stop them from breaking the law. Some people only need to know that the judge could give send them to prison for the act in order to be deterred from it. Others never even get the hankering to commit the crime in the first place. Others get smarter about not being caught. It's like saying prison just makes people get better at not being caught, not necessarily true.

The temperament and will of an individual needs to be considered and while spanking might have made one child more sneaky, it doesnt mean that it crosses the mind of all children. I had a brother who just couldnt NOT get caught for his life. Up until the last we heard of him about 7 years ago he was still getting caught for stupid shit in his 30's. He was just like that as a child and always getting spanked. Nothing seemed to be bad enough to stop him. I, on the other hand, dreaded the pain of spanking so much that i tried to be a good kid and not give my parents reason to do it at all.

 

[Marlboro woman]

I went to a private all-girls school (that's public school to US readers) which was one of the last schools in the area to allow corporal punishment. Although I was academically bright I was rebellious and was severely punished with the strap and the cane on a number of occasions, for not wearing proper uniform, wearing make-up and smoking. The more frequent and severe the canings, the more determined it made me to rebel. That's one of the reasons why the UK government banned corporal punishment in schools, because it doesn't work. Banning it in the home is more difficult to enforce but the same arguments apply IMO.

 

[Tattooed Goddess]

I was spanked in elementary school, it did happen more than once, but i probably would have been in more trouble if it didnt happen at all. Hell i got in a LOT more trouble after it was banned. I enjoyed getting sent to a room all by myself instead of getting spanked.