Should the rest of the world trust the United States?

[2322]

Great points Flashy!

 

[Flashy]

Great points Flashy!

thank you.

I can't wait to watch drifterwood ignore the facts...as usual.

:smile:

 

[D_Ivana Dickenside]

thank you.

I can't wait to watch drifterwood ignore the facts...as usual.

:smile:

LOL at first glance i thought your avatar was rick james :tongue:

 

[Flashy]

LOL at first glance i thought your avatar was rick james :tongue:

it's better than Rick James...it's Randy Watson!!!!!! Sexual Chocolate!!!!

 

[Rugbypup]

Must... not... comment.

Anti... Americanisms... flooding... Pup's... mind.

Must... fight it.

Evil pup... must not be loosed!

AHHHHHHHHHH!

 

[mista geechee]

the problem is that war is a very effective tool that a government can use to unite its people and , to keep it simple, pimp them.seriously, why do you think mccain has so many supporters when all he speaks of is war . dont you think its rather sad that someone who doesnt understand our economy has a good chance of becoming president because he plays off of the strong emotions that nationalism and patriotism bring about.so many US citizens see the stars and stripes and bust a nut on teh spot. so many US citizens think that the USA is the center of teh universe. sadly the majority of US citizens that vote are the ones that think this country is untouchable.

but einstein said it best

" nationalism is an infintile disease. it is the measles of mankind "

 

[Flashy]

Must... not... comment.

Anti... Americanisms... flooding... Pup's... mind.

Must... fight it.

Evil pup... must not be loosed!

AHHHHHHHHHH!

LOL

good pup...sit. stay. :wink:

 

[2322]

Must... not... comment.

Anti... Americanisms... flooding... Pup's... mind.

Must... fight it.

Evil pup... must not be loosed!

AHHHHHHHHHH!

Oh come on, have out with it.

 

[Rugbypup]

No, last time a careless American let loose Evil Pup, there was a mass ankles biting frenzy that wasn't soon resolved.

Many nations took weeks to recover.

 

[marleyisalegend]

No, last time a careless American let loose Evil Pup, there was a mass ankles biting frenzy that wasn't soon resolved.

Many nations took weeks to recover.

i refuse to believe that such an adorable dog would engage in such behavior.

by the way the best laugh i had all day was at this thread title. first of all, as an american i'm not interesting in earning the trust of the likes of kim jong il, and any other dictators who make their citizens eat/sleep/and/shit/and breathe only if it's in reference and honor to their all-powerful leader. i think the implication that the US is the only or biggest country who's trustworthiness is questionable is in-fucking-sane.

trust is overrated anyway. i'm much more hurt in my life by people who i trusted than those who i know don't like me.

 

[Drifterwood]

1. The United States is my main interest, not Israel. Israel is my secondary interest.

I said your interest in these things - ie the Middle East.

2. Israel may be a "pawn" to others...but a pawn can still kill a king...and when the pawn has 200+ nuclear weapons at its disposal, and is being threatened with being taken off the chess board forever, I assure you, they do not take the approach of a pawn.

I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree about the significance of yet a n other Islamic populist politician mouthing off about something over which he has no power.

But the irony, which you won't understand, of your polemic words is that they are the best argument for M.A.D..

3. This is not about the end of the petro dollar. This is about a rogue islamofascist nation, Iran attempting to obtain nuclear weapons. NObody is saying they cannot have nuclear power plants or nuclear energy. What is being said is that they cannot have ENRICHMENT programs. PRe-enriched nuclear fuel will be provided to them by an established economic partner and ally (Russia) and its use and disposal will be monitored at every turn by internationally agreed upon monitors.

Big difference between saying they can't have nuclear power for energy and they can't have a uranium enrichment program for nuclear power that CAN be used to make weapons grade nuclear material.

Yes, there is a difference, rather like the difference between being a self determining, self sufficient Nation, and not.

4. "logical that every country be in charge of its own fate regarding energy and not put its future in the hands of another country, even if that country is a friendly country."

Iran is in fact in charge of its own fate regarding energy. Iran has the second largest proven oil reserves in the world since Canada's shale/and non-conventional is discounted.

Since Iran has not bothered to develop its oil refinery capacity, it is the second largest oil importer in the world.

Iran also has the second largest proven natural gas reserves after Russia, with massive potential for more.

You miss the point Flash. They are snubbing the West and the Oil Game. They want cheap renewable energy whilst selling the expensive stuff to China. The longer they don't use their oil, the richer they will become. They are already in the World's top twenty GDP PPP nations, whilst Israel is outside the top 50.

5. Irrespective of Iranian and Russian economic ties, irrespective of George W. Bush, Iran is not a country that has an energy problem. Iran is not a country looking for a program of "oh my" energy self-sufficiency...they already have that.

They are looking for nuclear weapons.

They are looking to be stronger and stronger. It's about the balance of power, not only for Iran, but the whole region. I don't have a problem with Islamic countries being prosperous and powerful. I'll say more later.


6. Their energy self-sufficiency would be guaranteed without the US $ anyway. They need to spend more of their money on refinery, exploration and production of their good fortune in having such massive petroleum reserves, instead of spending it on trying to make a Shiite nuclear power that can dominate the region.

Please see above - no reason that they should play your game, or to your rules.

7. "And please don't try to say that the Russian nuclear fuel, and the EU offer before was free, they (we) stood to make Billions out of Iran."

Indeed the initial offers of nuclear fuel for the Iranian program were contingent on gratis free shipments to begin the initial phase of development.

Once again you are wrong about how much money could be made out of it, since the deal would be with the Russians, and the EU would make nothing from it. Coal and NAtural gas are both more expensive fuels then nuclear fuels, and that is a fact. The Iranians have already said they don't trust wester europe to provide them with nuclear fuel, so how exactly are you going to make money off of it, Chancellor of the Exchequer?

Completely factually wrong Flash. The first offer came from France and the UK. They would have made billions. But that offer was rejected and then the Russians made their offer, again out of which the Russians stood to make billions..


8. "Yes they may be tweaking the West,"

Only a lunatic like yourself would consider the constant threatening of existential destruction of a UN member state "tweaking". If you consider that to be "tweaking", you won't want to be around when the object of that tweaking decides that tweaking one about their very existence, is in fact not something to be taken lightly anymore.

You were being almost well mannered till then Flash. Too much hyperbole again. My opinion is that the rantings of Ah Mad are a side show. We'll just have to disagree, though he has given you acres of bandwidth.


9. "but it's time to get those old imperial and modern economic Imperial notions out of your head."

Yeah...coming from you, a citizen of a country that perfected the " Old Imperial" model...it is also amusing that we have some "modern economic imperial notions" in our heads about Iran when we have not had virtually any relations with them economic or otherwise in nearly 30 years.

Childish, two wrongs do not actually make a right. Iran threw off their imperial heritage when they ousted the utterly corrupt puppet regime of the Shah. How very dare they.

10. "So, should we trust the US?"

Frankly, I don't care.

As it is, this is just another America bashing thread from you. Hardly unique.

The good old tactic of trying to discredit everyone who has a different opinion. You have spent a week insulting me, calling me silly names. Intelligent, impartial readers realise that this says a lot more about you than me Flash.

Read the comments above from your fellow Americans.

This thread is about changing attitudes to other Countries. Though I have just deleted it, you have what I consider to be the outdated opinion that you should always act blindly in your own self interest. But Obama is, I think, advocating a change to this Bushite bullying approach, and quite rightly I believe.

The world is changing IMO. Europe is now the leading economy in the world, China and India are major Regional and Global players, many Islamic countries are rich and developing fast, and then there is Russia. The question of the thread is about trusting the US response to these changes under the incumbent president. Is that anti American, or is it a very good question that affects a lot of people and not just Americans?

 

[CockpitJoystick]

I still believe the Americans will realise they are a major part of most problems around the world.... Or am I just dreaming again...

Not dreaming. Hallucinating.

 

[marleyisalegend]

Not dreaming. Hallucinating.

that's entirely ridiculous. are we perfect? fuck no. do we cause lots of problems? fuck yes. are we the only ones? fuck no. are we capable of better but constantly spoken to be neanderthals? DEFINITELY.

 

[Drifterwood]

that's entirely ridiculous. are we perfect? fuck no. do we cause lots of problems? fuck yes. are we the only ones? fuck no. are we capable of better but constantly spoken to be neanderthals? DEFINITELY.

I appreciate that this is a predominantly US site, Marley, but don't let emotion get in the way of a genuie discussion.

The discussion is global, as is this site, if people who aren't from the US have different opinions then I don't think you should be surprised. Many of their views are however shared by many people from the US.

For me at least, the question is important. Does the US impose it's will or do the "right" thing? For some the two are the same. My country is actively engaged in two US led wars, a third in the same region is on the horizon.

It is becoming increasingly apparent that the war against Iraq was determined by the US policy of following its energy agenda. I therefore take it very seriously if there is to be another conflict. Personally, the end of the Bush administration can not come fast enough for a clearer view of what the right thing to do will or may be. Though I was extremely worried by the shit that Obama got for suggesting that he might just wish to talk to the Iranians.

This nebulous concept of the war on terror just seems to lead to wars to stop wars happening, only they don't even. Isn't this a lunatic logic?

 

[marleyisalegend]

For me at least, the question is important. Does the US impose it's will or do the "right" thing?

you know i'm no hypocrite so i'll be the first to offer a resounding fuck yes, at the same time it depends on who's in power. i don't think that every american, if put in power, would try to impose our idealogies. we simply have a government full of cowboys and self-righteous pricks, that DOES NOT represent the US as a country in terms of all of us being that way. i think the US's biggest problem is having a government full of self-righteous, prostitute-hiring, backroom dealing thugs in business suits. there are too many loopholes that allow these creeps to maintain power, as quickly as power corrupts people, that's dangerously combined with people who are already corrupt being given power

 

[Drifterwood]

Thanks Marley, no non Americans are using insulting language. This thread means even more if you read it in conjunction with Jason's thread on Letters from Vermont. Cause and effect as it were.

 

[marleyisalegend]

Thanks Marley, no non Americans are using insulting language.

i've recognized/appreciate that, that's why i'm posting here in the first place, i'm trying to not post in threads that seem overtly illogical and discriminatory. there's definitely logic and realism being employed here, and i realize that the powers that be in this country are a bunch of power/money hungry bullies.

i get a little defensive when i read threads that i (sometimes incorrectly) interpret as saying "all (insert group/religion/race/country) are one way" but i realize that isn't the case here.

 

[CockpitJoystick]

marleywasadruggie wrote the following:

are we capable of better but constantly spoken to be neanderthals? DEFINITELY.

At least you know something.

Or maybe two things. You describe yourself as a "writer" who likes "poetry" but speaks "bad English." How do you like the following poem?

http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/15433

 

[marleyisalegend]

marleywasadruggie wrote the following:


At least you know something.

Or maybe two things. You describe yourself as a "writer" who likes "poetry" but speaks "bad English." How do you like the following poem?

http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/15433

i'm pressed to ask, how would you know i speak bad english if you've never heard me speak?? or do you assume that my posting style on a big-dick site is reflective of how i speak when, say, at a jazz bar or writer's convention or a date?? sorry but i drop the grammar/punctuation rules and let my hair down when i get on here, didn't know this was a harvard post-grad course, i thought it was a site about big penises.

actually i LOVE that fucking poem, and i did when i read it back in 4th, maybe 5th grade. a perfect representation of my care-free childhood and all the rules i broke, and my life now in reference to the gin lol. i'll betcha twenty dollars you don't know the timing it's supposed to be read in, and if you read it out loud would take away ALL of the culture and rhythm that are implied within the phrasing. *snaps twice*

ANYWAY, BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND, i think that having a government that has so much power comes with this expense. many citizens try to impose their views on others (i've sometimes been guilty of this) so it's nothing but bad news when you give that person a government office, a big budget, and an army to boot.

 

[Elmer Gantry]

if you don't trust the rest of the US, at least trust me when i say not all americans are conservative bush supporters. i can't wait to get his ass out of office in november.

That may be true but more Americans are conservative Bush supporters.

I'm getting a little tired of the Auschwitz defence.