Should the veil be banned?

[BBWBCL]

I find it unbelievable that these so called 'first world' countries impose so many restrictions on its population. Having travelled a bit and now home for about 3 years I appreciate the freedom my Muslim family and friends have compared to our counterparts in other areas.

We've just hosted the world in South Africa and I happened to visit a Muslim exhibition with my cousin. The foreign Muslim women were shocked to find out that we both had university degrees, have good jobs and drive our own cars.

So to answer the original question - no it shouldn't be banned because any community needs a variety of opinions, beliefs and personalities to work properly. What a boring world this would be if we were all the same. The Muslim community in Cape Town are fairly close knit. I'm sure those women would be welcomed here.

 

[TomCat84]

Probably. The problem is radical Islam is a political movement masquerading as a religion. The West automatically gives religions a free hall pass. Open societies are very vulnerable to this sort of subterfuge.

No. The United States Supreme Court has drawn a very clear line. Religions are given a wide reign in this country- right up to where they conflict with US law. Perhaps such is the case in Europe, but in the US, sharia law will NEVER be implemented, even for Muslims. Muslim taxi drivers have been known to refuse transport to people carrying liquor, or gays, or what not- they get punished by taxi commissions. Hysterics and hyperbole are NOT going to solve any problems.

 

[Victoria]

Even if the french unanimously passed this.. it will inevitably be over ruled and ultimately deafed and deprecated in the European Court Of Human Rights.

It's an utterly pointless excercise ..really.

 

[Mr. Snakey]

Yes, i agree with France.

 

[B_New End]

France needs to outlaw leg shaving and armpit shaving for women. Shaving is just patriarchal objectification, and outgrowth of centuries of male domination over women, based on the cultural assumption that women are only here to please men.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Time for a game of Mad Libs - The Political Propaganda Edition!!
Pay close attention now...

Probably. The problem is radical Islam is a political movement masquerading as a religion. The West automatically gives religions a free hall pass. Open societies are very vulnerable to this sort of subterfuge.

And then... BOOM!!!

Probably. The problem is radical Christianity is a political movement masquerading as a religion. The West automatically gives religions a free hall pass. Open societies are very vulnerable to this sort of subterfuge.

Notice in a game of societal propaganda, where bias and bigotry are deceitfully used to hide personal fears, you can change the optimal word and it never loses its effectiveness on the sheep that blindly eat it up. The problem is the messengers who deliberately distort the issue. Overzealous followers of ANY religion are a problem... not just Islam.

 

[HazelGod]

Even if the french unanimously passed this.. it will inevitably be over ruled and ultimately deafed and deprecated in the European Court Of Human Rights.

Not likely.

Religion is a blight on the species. I'd rather it get blown away all at once, but I've reconciled myself to the reality that it will have to be eroded in bits and pieces.

 

[superbot]

The veil is not a religious obligation for muslims,it's a matter of choice.Some do, most don't.It's strange how having had a sizeable population of muslims living in the UK for many years,that all of a sudden so many decide to opt into wearing it.Without a doubt it has become a 'separtist' statement,which I think is why the French gov't has voted to outlaw it and all credit to them.There are also many muslims who also have been VERY vocal about having their own parliament and also sharia law within the UK....You see the pattern developing??!!....

 

[Guy-jin]

Let me preface by saying I'm originally from New Hampshire.

Sufficed to say, I think people should be allowed to wear whatever the hell they want. If you want to wear a double-breasted suit made of tin foil, have at it.

I think people should be allowed to wear burqas if they want to. And I should be allowed to wear a ninja mask if I want to. Doesn't mean I'll be taken seriously or that a bank should be required to service me. But I should be allowed to wear it if I so choose.

I recognize neither France nor the majority of the rest of the world values personal liberty as much as myself or other people from my particular place in the world. But where I come from, we don't tell people what they can do with their own bodies in their own space. It's considered morally reprehensible to do so.

As for the burqa as a religious item... my understanding is that it isn't even a religious item. My understanding was that it is a cultural item, and that while it holds some connotations of repression it can also, ironically (especially to the Western mind) hold connotations of independence.

I am not necessarily in favor of the virulent spread of Islam. A Libertarian I may be, but I'm also an Atheist, and if I know anything of Islam, it's that their tolerance of my kind goes about as far as anyone else's (read: not very friggin' far). But I also realize that my Atheism stems from a sense of Libertarianism that can only be bred from itself, and that it will not last if I revert inward in fear.

Therefore, I believe the burqa to be an issue of personal freedom, and am not against it. If women of that culture do not with to wear it, they need to stand up for themselves and stop it. They need to seek help to stop it where they see fit. I do not see this movement to stop it, so I do not see it as detrimental yet.

 

[Scot22]

In the UK,religious segregation has been a problem for many years contributing to a "them and us" mentality viz in Northern Ireland.

In Scotland segregated religious schooling contributes to violent gang warfare based on religion,a few years later.

The veil should be banned,as it is another impediment to a united nation.

 

[B_New End]

The veil is not a religious obligation for muslims,it's a matter of choice.Some do, most don't.It's strange how having had a sizeable population of muslims living in the UK for many years,that all of a sudden so many decide to opt into wearing it.Without a doubt it has become a 'separtist' statement,which I think is why the French gov't has voted to outlaw it and all credit to them.There are also many muslims who also have been VERY vocal about having their own parliament and also sharia law within the UK....You see the pattern developing??!!....

The veil has been a symbol of separation in many countries, when people feel that the world they are living in is not one they want to participate in.

France should pass a weight limit on stretch pants.

 

[BBWBCL]

Like and agree. Thanks Guy.

Let me preface by saying I'm originally from New Hampshire.

Sufficed to say, I think people should be allowed to wear whatever the hell they want. If you want to wear a double-breasted suit made of tin foil, have at it.

I think people should be allowed to wear burqas if they want to. And I should be allowed to wear a ninja mask if I want to. Doesn't mean I'll be taken seriously or that a bank should be required to service me. But I should be allowed to wear it if I so choose.

I recognize neither France nor the majority of the rest of the world values personal liberty as much as myself or other people from my particular place in the world. But where I come from, we don't tell people what they can do with their own bodies in their own space. It's considered morally reprehensible to do so.

As for the burqa as a religious item... my understanding is that it isn't even a religious item. My understanding was that it is a cultural item, and that while it holds some connotations of repression it can also, ironically (especially to the Western mind) hold connotations of independence.

I am not necessarily in favor of the virulent spread of Islam. A Libertarian I may be, but I'm also an Atheist, and if I know anything of Islam, it's that their tolerance of my kind goes about as far as anyone else's (read: not very friggin' far). But I also realize that my Atheism stems from a sense of Libertarianism that can only be bred from itself, and that it will not last if I revert inward in fear.

Therefore, I believe the burqa to be an issue of personal freedom, and am not against it. If women of that culture do not with to wear it, they need to stand up for themselves and stop it. They need to seek help to stop it where they see fit. I do not see this movement to stop it, so I do not see it as detrimental yet.

 

[B_crackoff]

France needs to outlaw leg shaving and armpit shaving for women. Shaving is just patriarchal objectification, and outgrowth of centuries of male domination over women, based on the cultural assumption that women are only here to please men.

Having had French girlfriends & lived a short time in France, I can assure you that French women aren't culturally or aspirationally, like UK/US women - in particular with regards to not wanting to work, but look after their families when they've had kids, yet still remaining smart & stylish.

French women pretty much please themselves.

I assume you'd want to ban shaving for men too - in all areas:wink:

To those who say it wouldn't be allowed in the US - you aren't allowed to have dark tinted windows -

And more importantly, in most states you aren't allowed to wear a mask! With certainty, you would be stopped & hassled by the police.

CND: State Codes Related To Wearing Masks

Res ipsa loquitar

 

[mitchymo]

Therefore, I believe the burqa to be an issue of personal freedom, and am not against it. If women of that culture do not with to wear it, they need to stand up for themselves and stop it. They need to seek help to stop it where they see fit. I do not see this movement to stop it, so I do not see it as detrimental yet.

I am a supporter of personal freedom for people, but, there has to be a but, the limits to which those freedoms extend must not cause problems for everyone else. It borders on selfishness. France, like the UK and Benelux, Australia and Canada are all more secular than Eastern Europe and even the States, and large swathes of the population are no fans of religion full stop, let alone one which they feel harbours a greater negativity than that which they have grew up around and shook off.

The whole cultural aspect is a fair point to make, but muslims should and must respect the culture as a whole instead of seperating themselves any more than can be helped.
Is'nt muslim women taking a stand a bit problematic in that they are often subservient within their culture where they are practicing less moderate forms of the faith. Its easier for a moderate muslim women to make a stand who unfortunately is less likely to be the one wearing the burqa anyway.

I think a greater understanding must have been reached and portrays the burqa as a symbol of islamic extremism. I reckon that has to be the main issue amongst those who are'nt just bigotted.

 

[TomCat84]

Let me preface by saying I'm originally from New Hampshire.

Sufficed to say, I think people should be allowed to wear whatever the hell they want. If you want to wear a double-breasted suit made of tin foil, have at it.

I think people should be allowed to wear burqas if they want to. And I should be allowed to wear a ninja mask if I want to. Doesn't mean I'll be taken seriously or that a bank should be required to service me. But I should be allowed to wear it if I so choose.

I recognize neither France nor the majority of the rest of the world values personal liberty as much as myself or other people from my particular place in the world. But where I come from, we don't tell people what they can do with their own bodies in their own space. It's considered morally reprehensible to do so.

As for the burqa as a religious item... my understanding is that it isn't even a religious item. My understanding was that it is a cultural item, and that while it holds some connotations of repression it can also, ironically (especially to the Western mind) hold connotations of independence.

I am not necessarily in favor of the virulent spread of Islam. A Libertarian I may be, but I'm also an Atheist, and if I know anything of Islam, it's that their tolerance of my kind goes about as far as anyone else's (read: not very friggin' far). But I also realize that my Atheism stems from a sense of Libertarianism that can only be bred from itself, and that it will not last if I revert inward in fear.

Therefore, I believe the burqa to be an issue of personal freedom, and am not against it. If women of that culture do not with to wear it, they need to stand up for themselves and stop it. They need to seek help to stop it where they see fit. I do not see this movement to stop it, so I do not see it as detrimental yet.

VERY well said, sir! Perhaps these nations haivng problems with Muslims should have taken a book from the USA viz a viz (HA! I love using that term) our treatments of different religions.

 

[mitchymo]

VERY well said, sir! Perhaps these nations haivng problems with Muslims should have taken a book from the USA viz a viz (HA! I love using that term) our treatments of different religions.

Lets compare the USA and France.

As a proportion of its population, the USA has 2.75% muslims, France has 7%

Now compare the size of the countries and take into consideration that to the nearest million, France has twice as many muslims living in their secular nation.

Its no surprise that the french are feeling alienated by a culture that values religion so highly when the nation has sought to keep religion and government seperate.

Its different in the states, the muslim population is half the size and spread out over more space, and to top that off, you have a higher population of christians maintaining moral heirarchy than in France.

The french identity is seemingly being polluted with the very thing they would rather do without - Religion (of any kind)

 

[TomCat84]

Lets compare the USA and France.

As a proportion of its population, the USA has 2.75% muslims, France has 7%

Now compare the size of the countries and take into consideration that to the nearest million, France has twice as many muslims living in their secular nation.

Its no surprise that the french are feeling alienated by a culture that values religion so highly when the nation has sought to keep religion and government seperate.

Its different in the states, the muslim population is half the size and spread out over more space, and to top that off, you have a higher population of christians maintaining moral heirarchy than in France.

The french identity is seemingly being polluted with the very thing they would rather do without - Religion (of any kind)

Look, the USA has a far longer and more extensive history of massive waves of immigration to this country. Open up economic opportunities to immigrants, and the religion won't matter. It's not the veil that France should feel threatened by- it's the lack of economic opportunity that gets the Muslim immigrants all riled and radicalized. The Muslims that are here in the US have a far more positive opinion of the country- we don't have Muslims rioting in the inner cities- and I can tell you that just a few miles down from my house is a very dense Muslim community- mainly immigrants from Somalia.

 

[TomCat84]

^Telling a Muslim woman she can't wear a veil is going to have the very oppositie effect than intended. Instead of uniting communities, you are going to drive a wedge. You are going to needlessly piss off a lot of people. It's like putting out a fire at one house by setting the one next to it on fire as well.

 

[B_New End]

It's simply the French being control freak, hypocritical bastards. Nothing new here.

 

[mitchymo]

Look, the USA has a far longer and more extensive history of massive waves of immigration to this country. Open up economic opportunities to immigrants, and the religion won't matter. It's not the veil that France should feel threatened by- it's the lack of economic opportunity that gets the Muslim immigrants all riled and radicalized. The Muslims that are here in the US have a far more positive opinion of the country- we don't have Muslims rioting in the inner cities- and I can tell you that just a few miles down from my house is a very dense Muslim community- mainly immigrants from Somalia.

US borders are a lot easier to control than those of the French.
And the majority of immigrants to the US have been of catholic/christian faith already so fit in a hell of a lot easier.

(and what's with this 'Look' at the beginning of your comment? Patronising just a bit. Just as well you got a likeable persona. :frown1