Should the veil be banned?

[mitchymo]

^Telling a Muslim woman she can't wear a veil is going to have the very oppositie effect than intended. Instead of uniting communities, you are going to drive a wedge. You are going to needlessly piss off a lot of people. It's like putting out a fire at one house by setting the one next to it on fire as well.

Thats a little daft tho really, some people still commit murder when we know not to. If such a woman was more resolved to wear it after a ban, then she will pay the consequences.

Faceless people are already a division in the community, its not likely to be a prominent concern.
Your analogy of the fire could be adapted. As in forest fires where one is started to stop a bigger one. i.e. a more divided society

 

[TomCat84]

US borders are a lot easier to control than those of the French.
And the majority of immigrants to the US have been of catholic/christian faith already so fit in a hell of a lot easier.

(and what's with this 'Look' at the beginning of your comment? Patronising just a bit. Just as well you got a likeable persona. :frown1

Are you kidding me? US borders are easier to control? I love you mitchy, but do yourself a favor and research North American geography, please :frown1:

 

[TomCat84]

Thats a little daft tho really, some people still commit murder when we know not to. If such a woman was more resolved to wear it after a ban, then she will pay the consequences.

Faceless people are already a division in the community, its not likely to be a prominent concern.
Your analogy of the fire could be adapted. As in forest fires where one is started to stop a bigger one. i.e. a more divided society

I think this split in the debate here shows that while Europeans value community rights over individual- Americans are still very much attached to individual rights- and I'd prefer to keep it that way.

 

[mitchymo]

Are you kidding me? US borders are easier to control? I love you mitchy, but do yourself a favor and research North American geography, please :frown1:

My geography aint that bad. You're a nation surrounded by the two largest oceans in the world and land borders with only two other nations.

You have one close continental neighbour in south america (catholic/christian).

You only really have one difficulty, Mexico. Yea i know, its a bloody huge border but its just one main problem.

France can be walked to from most of asia and africa even. Remember i did'nt say it was'nt easy to control, i said easier than it is for the french.

 

[mitchymo]

I think this split in the debate here shows that while Europeans value community rights over individual- Americans are still very much attached to individual rights- and I'd prefer to keep it that way.

Selfish ! :tongue:

 

[TomCat84]

My geography aint that bad. You're a nation surrounded by the two largest oceans in the world and land borders with only two other nations.

You have one close continental neighbour in south america (catholic/christian).

You only really have one difficulty, Mexico. Yea i know, its a bloody huge border but its just one main problem.

France can be walked to from most of asia and africa even. Remember i did'nt say it was'nt easy to control, i said easier than it is for the french.

We have one of the longest land borders in the world with Canada- and there's nothing but forest and prairie, with nary a person for most of it, except in the northeast. The Mexican border is problematic, as it's relatively sparsely populated, except for the San Diego/Tijuana and El Paso/Ciudad Juarez areas. The rest is pretty much desert. And as for the oceans- there are stories in the local paper all the time about how a random dinghy/boat has washed ashore, or some homeless person on the beach reports a bunch of people getting off a boat in the middle of the night. I'm not even mentioning the boats that flood Florida from the poorer Caribbean nations. For all of its problems, the US does a lot better than Europe in integrating different cultures/beliefs into larger society. France, and the rest of Europe, needs to disassociate itself with the idea that being French/British/Spanish etc means looking, speaking, and acting the same as everyone else.

 

[scotchirish]

My geography aint that bad. You're a nation surrounded by the two largest oceans in the world and land borders with only two other nations.

You have one close continental neighbour in south america (catholic/christian).

You only really have one difficulty, Mexico. Yea i know, its a bloody huge border but its just one main problem.

France can be walked to from most of asia and africa even. Remember i did'nt say it was'nt easy to control, i said easier than it is for the french.

By this logic America is even worse off than France. It's not difficult to sneak in to any country south of the US, and it's glaringly obvious that it's not difficult to get across the US/Mexico boarder. On the northern side, we have Canada which is a much more liberal and accepting country than we are. I don't know this for sure but I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to get into Canada either. Then we have the issue of that boarder of which only a minuscule percentage is monitored.

 

[Industrialsize]

I can see banning the veil ONLY while operating an automobile for safety's sake, but for no other reason.

 

[mitchymo]

For all of its problems, the US does a lot better than Europe in integrating different cultures/beliefs into larger society. France, and the rest of Europe, needs to disassociate itself with the idea that being French/British/Spanish etc means looking, speaking, and acting the same as everyone else.

I saw a documentary a couple months back about a muslim american soldier facing a difficult decision about leaving his job because of abuse by his colleagues. The US is doing no better a job at anything. The circumstances are different that's all.
I don't see it being easier to integrate over there anyway, i mean, do muslims drink in bars? Do they support gay rights? Are they any more liberal than the ones here in Europe?

 

[B_New End]

I don't see it being easier to integrate over there anyway, i mean, do muslims drink in bars? Do they support gay rights? Are they any more liberal than the ones here in Europe?

Of course, just like Christians, there is a spectrum of fundamentalism. Some muslims only claim to be because they were born to a muslim family, just like some Catholics.

 

[TomCat84]

I saw a documentary a couple months back about a muslim american soldier facing a difficult decision about leaving his job because of abuse by his colleagues. The US is doing no better a job at anything. The circumstances are different that's all.
I don't see it being easier to integrate over there anyway, i mean, do muslims drink in bars? Do they support gay rights? Are they any more liberal than the ones here in Europe?

Yes, well, we haven't voted to ban veils or minarets, either.

 

[TomCat84]

I saw a documentary a couple months back about a muslim american soldier facing a difficult decision about leaving his job because of abuse by his colleagues. The US is doing no better a job at anything. The circumstances are different that's all.
I don't see it being easier to integrate over there anyway, i mean, do muslims drink in bars? Do they support gay rights? Are they any more liberal than the ones here in Europe?

The statistics bear it out in terms of employment numbers among recent immigrants and other numbers

 

[mitchymo]

Of course, just like Christians, there is a spectrum of fundamentalism. Some muslims only claim to be because they were born to a muslim family, just like some Catholics.

And do many of these muslim women wear veils? I bet not. Moderate Islam is not an issue anywhere, these veils are worn predominantly amongst the less moderate branches who do not share common enough values. It sends the wrong message that Islam as a whole is welcome when i think really we're only happy to see the moderate amongst our population.

It really creates ill will when you have to hear on the news that a young muslim women has been murdered in an honour killing. In this society!!!
Its not welcome and that kind of culture does not belong here. I don't know how often you've had honour killings reported in the states but its happened here a few times over the last several years. I imagine the french have had the same thing.
Its not the religion that is the problem, its the extreme of it and the best way of making that part of the culture unwelcome is to make it difficult to adhere to. Banning the veil would at least help limit the level of subservience experienced by some women caught in the more fundamentalist ideology of the religion.

Oh, and we have a muslim women in our cabinet, so integration is going fairly well here too. But more can be done.

 

[mitchymo]

Yes, well, we haven't voted to ban veils or minarets, either.

Its obviously not the issue that it is in France then, that's all. The americans are no more logical or illogical when it comes to thinking. Give the vote on an issue at the heart of US concerns and you'll see the same derision that you see elsewhere.
I think its a little arrogant (no offence to you personally) to say that the americans have a better handle when the circumstances are different.

For all the freedom and liberties that you have as individuals, collectively, you're an unattractive nation.

 

[B_New End]

It really creates ill will when you have to hear on the news that a young muslim women has been murdered in an honour killing. In this society!!!
Its not welcome and that kind of culture does not belong here. I don't know how often you've had honour killings reported in the states but its happened here a few times over the last several years. I imagine the french have had the same thing.
Its not the religion that is the problem, its the extreme of it and the best way of making that part of the culture unwelcome is to make it difficult to adhere to. Banning the veil would at least help limit the level of subservience experienced by some women caught in the more fundamentalist ideology of the religion.

I don't know about honor killings, but we have had our share of polygamy and child brides. BTW, "honor killings" also happen in Hindu and Buddhist cultures.

we also have had quite a few Christians shoot and kill their own family and claim God told them to do it, or that they were Jesus or something like that. Most of the time, honor killings happen in areas that are beyond the reach of the national governments. It would take a civil war to bring them to heel. It sucks, and they shoudl think of mobilizing against such group, IMO, but that's the reality.

I was raised in a cult that dressed differently.... and as much as I disdain them, I would never dare tell them their women needed to start cutting their hair and wearing shorter dresses because they needed to show they wanted to be a part of our society. That's just sick in the head, really.

I mean, I guess I wouldn't mind if everyone had to wear blue jumpsuits with blue caps and red stars, but until then, I think fashion and how you present yourself to the world should be the choice of the individual. It is really quite ludicrous to claim that wearing a birka means you condone honor killings. That's really a ridiculous leap of logic.

 

[Industrialsize]

I don't know about honor killings, but we have had our share of polygamy and child brides. BTW, "honor killings" also happen in Hindu and Buddhist cultures.

we also have had quite a few Christians shoot and kill their own family and claim God told them to do it, or that they were Jesus or something like that. Most of the time, honor killings happen in areas that are beyond the reach of the national governments. It would take a civil war to bring them to heel. It sucks, and they shoudl think of mobilizing against such group, IMO, but that's the reality.

I was raised in a cult that dressed differently.... and as much as I disdain them, I would never dare tell them their women needed to start cutting their hair and wearing shorter dresses because they needed to show they wanted to be a part of our society. That's just sick in the head, really.

I mean, I guess I wouldn't mind if everyone had to wear blue jumpsuits with blue caps and red stars, but until then, I think fashion and how you present yourself to the world should be the choice of the individual. It is really quite ludicrous to claim that wearing a birka means you condone honor killings. That's really a ridiculous leap of logic.

I have to correct you, As a practicing and well studied Buddhist I can tell you there is NO such thing as an honor killing in ANY Buddhist Culture.

 

[B_New End]

I have to correct you, As a practicing and well studied Buddhist I can tell you there is NO such thing as an honor killing in ANY Buddhist Culture.

I knew this would happen. Just because the culture claims a certain religion, doesn't mean they are strict adherents. Killing your daughter in tribal areas for sleeping with a man is not unheard of, even in so called buddhist regions. It even happened here in the United states a few years back, where a woman killed her daughter after she found out she wasn't a virgin.

Supposedly Buddhism is against war, but Buddhist nations and people still go to war sometimes. (sri Lanka or east timor.. cant remember ATM)

 

[Industrialsize]

I knew this would happen. Just because the culture claims a certain religion, doesn't mean they are strict adherents. Killing your daughter in tribal areas for sleeping with a man is not unheard of, even in so called buddhist regions. It even happened here in the United states a few years back, where a woman killed her daughter after she found out she wasn't a virgin.

You knew that someone would point out where you were in error? On this fact you are just plain wrong......Show me ONE instance of an honor killing by a Buddhist. Doesn't happen and just shows you don't know beans about Buddhism or Buddhists.

 

[B_New End]

You knew that someone would point out where you were in error? On this fact you are just plain wrong......Show me ONE instance of an honor killing by a Buddhist. Doesn't happen and just shows you don't know beans about Buddhism or Buddhists.

Cambodia is 90% Buddhist. They killed 5% of their own population. If you believe a Buddhist has never killed his/her wife/daughter/sister for having sex or an affair, I mean... I don't know. You could be right, but I seriously doubt it.

P.S. I like Buddhism, and have read How to live a peaceful life by the Dalai Lama and Peace is in every step by Thic Nit Han. But I think Cambodia is a pretty good example of how religious identity doesn't mean a whole lot when it comes to how cruel people can be to each other.

 

[rawbone8]

Veiled women are not unfamiliar to me. For the early part of my life I was taught by religious zealot women, garbed from head to floor in flowing black medieval robes, with only their hands and part of their faces exposed, tightly cropped and framed in a starched linen cloth.

Nuns. With big bad mofo crucifixes replete with a tortured naked man hanging over their front. Scary to some. A comfort to others.



Are they banned in France now, too?