Shut Up, Stupid

Discussion in 'Politics' started by D_Percy_Prettywillie, Sep 17, 2011.

  1. D_Percy_Prettywillie

    D_Percy_Prettywillie Account Disabled

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    I'm not a doctor, I'm not a lawyer, I'm not an astronaut, and I'm not a mechanic. I've been sick, I've had a traffic ticket, I think Pluto deserves to be a planet still, and I drive a car. So in spite of not being any of those things I have at least a passing familiarity with the professions having needed or read about them at one time or another. Beyond a certain point, however, I am full and well aware there are discussion topics posed by and posed about those professions that will go above my level of comprehension.


    I'm not an idiot but I'd never dive in on a group of doctors debating the treatment course for a woman with cancer just because my great grandmother had it. Likewise, I wouldn't propose the best way of getting to Mars because I've seen a few episodes of Star Trek. Same goes for getting out of a prosecution based on what I saw on Law and Order. I can't fix a car just because I so happen to have seen someone do it in at a Jiffy Lube.

    So why are people so comfortable voicing their blatantly uninformed opinions on politics? It is an occupation that is equally as complex as any of the aforementioned yet people who a.) have no hope of understanding machinations of Congress and b.) typically have no real want to understand politics feel perfectly fine belting out their ignorance to anyone who will listen. While astronauts and lawyers and doctors conduct business that isn't decidedly everyone's business (the way a Congressman, Senator or President conducts business that is) they are still afforded a certain... I dunno, respect that not just any ape with a wrench can do what they do.

    There are political topics that the majority of the population can't possibly come to an informed opinion on and yet? We hear about it, from the horses mouths more often than not, on a daily basis. If you're not politically savvy or just aren't well versed in one area or another?

    It's perfectly alright to STFU.

    Has anyone else noticed this? Thoughts on why people are more comfortable exposing themselves for idiots in terms of politics as opposed to other professional occupations?



    JSZ
     
  2. B_enzia35

    B_enzia35 New Member

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    My guess: they stayed at Holiday Inn.
     
  3. D_Hairy Truman

    D_Hairy Truman New Member

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    an opinion is like an asshole everyone has one. get a second opinion from a doctor, lawyer, dentist, until you find one that suits you. oh that is right the majority of congressman, senators, and presidents have actually been one of the professionals i have mentioned and then decided to make politics another career choice. gotta start somewhere so STFU yourself and quite acting like you're an intelligent thinker on a board that people show their dicks on.
     
  4. D_Percy_Prettywillie

    D_Percy_Prettywillie Account Disabled

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    Being somewhere doesn't discount the possibility of being something. An example of this would be because I'm in the city of Baltimore doesn't eliminate the possibility of my being a law abiding citizen any more than posting on an adult forum where people show their dicks discounts my being an intelligent thinker.

    Your argument doesn't even make sense... since there's nothing to argue. I freely admit there are conversational topics I won't dive head long into (and did so in the first post) so I'm not asking "Why do people ruin my day by involving themselves in topics they're too dense to understand appropriately." I'm asking why they're comfortable engaging in said conversation at all when anywhere else, they wouldn't.


    Maybe it's you I should be asking... as evidenced by your trite, thoughtless, evidence-of-the-absence-of-reading-comprehension reply? Enlighten us. Why do you feel the need to post? You can't execute the proper placement of a comma and yet you're comfortable vocalizing your disdain for legislation that is thousands of pages long. If you can't get "one foot in front of the other" down pat, why should I have any faith in you as an Olympic sprinter? If "food goes on plate" is beyond your final frontier, why am I hiring you to cater a banquet?



    JSZ
     
    #4 D_Percy_Prettywillie, Sep 17, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2011
  5. D_Hairy Truman

    D_Hairy Truman New Member

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    if you go in front of the american people asking for a bill to be passed and it has not even been written yet, why should i trust your leadership skill? no writing errors that you speak of were found you moron. and you're right. because of the fact that you pointed out errors that were not there, why am i reading your posts? cya wouldn't want to be ya. praise allah. fekete.
     
  6. Drifterwood

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    It's a democracy?

    I started a thread a while back about whether stupid people should be allowed to vote. The premise was that you wouldn't go to an unintelligent person, for medical, legal, whatever advice, but we do for the small matter of running our countries.

    It was just a stir up to question our thinking on these things. I tended to agree that there are many professors out there that I would be worried about, not to mention the nut jobs. You have to hope that the majority are reasonably sane.
     
  7. dandelion

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    So what you say is that before a certain point you and presumably everyone would likely join in. Taking into account how many posters altogether there are on LPSG, Id say most do not feel the need to make any comment on politics. Only those of us interested and informed enough do so.

    There are a few fundamental points about governments which do not necessarily apply to other professions. Politicians lie as a matter of course. This is in fact a job requirement. Politicians do not feel bound in any way to take into account the wishes of their customers, the people of their country. Most political isues are pretty simple, though often dressed up in misdirection. Legal and medical issue on the other hand are fundamentally complex but presented as simple. Politics is about every part of our lives, so whatever your ordinary field, you have some relevant experience.


    Well perhaps you should. If your great grandmother died of cancer some time ago, chances are doctors now would say her treatment then was terrible. If it is terrible now, it was terrible then. professionals frequently need a good kicking to overcome their innate complacency.


    Some very excellent and thought provoking technology has been showcased in science fiction. Maybe it wouldnt help with the trechnology of how we might get to mars, but it does help us think about the philosophy of why the hell we might want to and explore some of the situations which might arise when we arrive.

    Because their opinions are clearly just as sensible as those coming from professional politicians who disagree with each other diametrically. Because by entering into debate, you learn. It is a very long established teaching technique.

    Such as? I can think of one example, when Tony Blair told the nation to trust him because he had access to secret information which said it was necessary to invade Iraq. We did not have access to this information. We did suspect however that what he said was nonsense, and so it proved. All relevant secret information which has come to light to date has failed to support the invasion.
     
  8. Calboner

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    The answer to your question is simple: There is no such thing as expertise in politics, as there is in medicine, automobile mechanics, law, astronomy, and so on. There are, therefore, no experts to defer to.

    Further, if you think that only "experts" should hold political opinions, then your real problem is with democracy. Plato certainly had a problem with it: he thought that it was the worst form of government, and that the best form was rule by an elite with expertise in True Politics (capital letters to indicate the mythological nature of this subject). I believe that the nearest that politics on earth has come to this arrangement has been Soviet communism, which, as I recall, did not work out very well.
     
  9. dandelion

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    oh no. soviet comunism was a very poor and unsuccessful example of rule by an elite. I would suggest any one of the current so-called democracies are better run elite ruled states than the ussr.
     
  10. D_Percy_Prettywillie

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    I don't think that only experts should engage in political discussion because, like dandelion stated in a rare moment of clarity, there are often occasions that we learn by doing.

    However, (and this is society in general, not specifically LPSG) there are people like quoted above who are not well versed in the goings-on in the country politically speaking and aren't interested in learning. Yet still, they open their mouths and because it's an opinion, it has to be respected.

    kt71 can't compose a paragraph and yet it is understood that his unabashed foolishness be respected as though said statements were as credible as, say Horrible's or dandelion's. Why are people like this so comfortable engaging? They wouldn't be in other avenues so why in politics?

    The other problem I have is the suggestion that I'm talking about rule by the elite which pulls this entire conversation straight off the tracks. A.) I'm not talking about the people governing the country (though holding those we elect to a higher standard wouldn't be, you know, a completely stupid idea) and B.) I don't think "elite" should be confused with "educated." I don't have that problem with democracy and :rolleyes: I'm not suggesting Soviet Russia.

    Maybe there aren't "political experts" (though every undergrad with a BA in political science I've ever met would sternly disagree with that statement) but, internally, we know whether we know what we personally are talking about or not. We know. Idiots with uninformed opinions don't talk about the capital gains tax or cap and trade- if they have an opinion, they're likely more informed than most. I'm not talking about people I disagree with personally, I'm talking about people who don't have any Earthly idea what they're saying choosing to open their mouths on subjects complex beyond their comprehension.

    It doesn't happen in regard to calculating PI so why is anything that comes out of Washington DC open season for blathering stupidity?




    JSZ
     
  11. houtx48

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  12. Sklar

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    Speaking strictly from an American viewpoint, Zombie, we are a Representative Republic. Our elected officials are supposed to representing the opinion/belief of the majority of the people who elected them to their office.

    That's why we talk about this Senator or that Congressman or even, God forbid, the President. Because he/she either does/doesn't represent our beliefs/opinions.

    The premise that you started this thread and I'll paraphrase here: That unless you have the background to talk about something, keep your mouth shut. If that were the case then all actors should have to stay out of politics and only talk show hosts on news channels and radio stations and the politicians should be the only "experts" we should ever listen to.

    I would disagree with that 100%. Remember, we are a country of the People, by the people and for the People. The People have more of a right to talk about politics than the politicians do.

    Sklar
     
  13. Calboner

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    I don't understand where you get this idea (indicated by added bold type), nor can I tell if you are asserting it or attributing it to other people; and if attributing it to other people, to whom you are attributing it and on what basis. It seems a patently ridiculous notion to me.
    I have great difficulty determining what the point of your first post was intended to be, but you posited an analogy between politics and various fields of special knowledge, such as medicine, law, and automobile mechanics. The point of the analogy seems to be that, just as people without expertise in such fields have no business advancing opinions in them, so people without expertise in politics have no business advancing opinions about it. The implication is that only the experts are qualified to do this, and the non-experts should simply defer to them. This in turn implies a rejection of democracy, which presumes the right of all citizens to participate in the political process, not just in voting but in making public their opinions. If this is not the point of your analogy then you need to state clearly what the point is supposed to be.
    This seems to me a ridiculous claim. We have all seen countless instances of people who think they know what they are talking about when they do not. Some people have a great aptitude for confidence in their opinions, regardless of the degree to which those opinions are based on sound information. Such self-confidence has more to do with personality than with actual knowledge.
    Now you seem to be saying that anybody who talks about capital gains tax or cap and trade shows himself or herself thereby to satisfy the minimal standard of knowledge required for voicing an opinion about politics, in your view. This is a very different idea from what you were initially asserting in your analogy with fields of expertise. Once again, I have difficulty understanding what point you are trying to make.
    What is "PI"?
     
  14. Sklar

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    I think the PI he is talking about, because he used the word "calculating" is the mathematical PI 3.14 da da da.

    You know PI R Squared. But in reality, PI R Round. Cakes R Squared.

    Sklar
     
  15. dandelion

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    It has to be heard. It doesnt have to be respected. But as we have moved on to the way a debate should be conducted, I dont think it helps anyones argument if they resort to personal abuse, or party abuse. More a sign of having lost. So if someone is abusive, just be happy they probably just lost the argument.


    Bit of an aside, but there was a program yesterday talking about SPADs. (Special political advisers) and their role in british government. They are people ministers get in to advise and assist them apart from the professional civil servants. It was noted that all the current party leaders and VIPs were first SPADS. ie in order to become a government minister in the UK what you do is get yourself an apprenticeship where you work for a current minister. Democracy in action, eh? It is soooo run by patronage and inheritance. The point though is that the circle of people with real experience of what it means to run a country is very small. That makes all the rest of us amateurs.

    Thats because no one cares how to calculate pi. We do care how much tax we pay even if we dont understand what happens to it. That is the first step to becoming informed, so take heart.
     
  16. dandelion

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    You never heard the phrase 'as american as apple pi'?
     
  17. Horrible

    Horrible New Member

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    I think there are two pages thus far illustrating the origins of the original post.
     
  18. FuzzyKen

    FuzzyKen New Member

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    There are two scary things here.

    The first is that a true observation is how misinformed most people are as to political issues and their actual causes, and how successful those intent on covering the facts have been and continue to be.

    The second is that like it or not the more misinformed most are, the more locked in stone they are with regards to their opinions.

    The bottom line for all of us no matter which side of an issue our personal opinions lie is that getting to the real truth is damned hard.
     
  19. D_Percy_Prettywillie

    D_Percy_Prettywillie Account Disabled

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    Friend, all of your posts are a "bit of an aside."

    Honestly! I don't understand what's so difficult about the concept. These people act like everyone they've ever heard address a politically based topic had a PHD. It's as if they've never heard anyone speak at length that had no business doing so. Look at this;

    That much is obvious. My suggestion would be to go back and re-read it if you're having so much difficulty wrapping your head around it before posting about it.


    You're telling me you personally don't know when you're talking out of your ass and when you actually have relevant information to add to a discussion? You're not aware of the difference between the two while you're having a conversation with someone? Boiled down- you don't know the difference between informed and uninformed in regard to yourself? That is probably the source of your trouble grasping what this thread is about.

    Maybe take dandelion's advice; watch a few episodes of Stargate SG1 and Scrubs, then go apply for a position at NASA as a MD.

    This has somehow become a referendum on the electorate as a whole and it shouldn't be. The people who pick up the Inquirer and say "So Michelle Obama is having Mussolini's great grandson's love child eh? I always knew I didn't like her!" are the ones this thread was originally intended to address. Why is that lady so vested in vocalizing her opinion? Why not stick to day time soap operas and frying pickles?

    Now by all means; make this about elitism, how you're unclear about posts that are already watered down to the point they could be featured on Sesame Street, and socialism and communism and whatever other "evil" you can associate the question with. Oh, and if you're not clear on Pi, the esoteric nature of the discussion might be slightly too advanced for you but if you've gotten this far I suppose it's too late.

    ... and as evidenced by this thread, that shouldn't make any difference anyway apparently.




    JSZ
     
  20. lafever

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