SICK of the Obama-Preacher write off excuses

[D_Cyprius Slapwilly]

And i suppose the jews of europe should thank the nazis for sending them by the train load to the gas chambers; because the state of israel was born through their sufferings. Get real...is not about prosperity or the standard of living; its about not being judge guilty, not being stared at if you can into another neighbourhood (read white one) because your black. So i guess given a choice of a good standard of living or living your live free of judgement because of the colour of your skin...some parts of Africa look good.

Two words: Pat Buchanan. No need to argue. :biggrin1:

 

[tripod]

chizz... you are a testament to the beauty of the human soul. Your take on the matter is educated and informed. You have that rare quality or ability to step inside other's shoes. I really enjoyed reading your post, it is pretty much the definitive statement on the matter.

 

[invisibleman]

I am STILL voting for Barack Obama.

 

[D_Cyprius Slapwilly]

chizz... you are a testament to the beauty of the human soul. Your take on the matter is educated and informed. You have that rare quality or ability to step inside other's shoes. I really enjoyed reading your post, it is pretty much the definitive statement on the matter.

Thank you! :smile:

 

[midlifebear]

chizz... you are a testament to the beauty of the human soul. Your take on the matter is educated and informed. You have that rare quality or ability to step inside other's shoes. I really enjoyed reading your post, it is pretty much the definitive statement on the matter.

Mr. Chizz: I second that motion and carry it. I've been reading these Hillary/Obama, yes/no, hate/love, neither/niether posts and have primarily been concerned with just one thing: no more Republicans in the White House -- at least of a while. Anyone who has volunteered their blood, sweat and time for a political campaign will agree that meat is rendered unjustly in bits and pieces while sorties of shit and lies fly in all directions cutting down innocent bystanders.

In a perfect world the Democrats would have figured out a compromise before the Republicans and made a public example of where they stand by diverting the wasted campaign funds between then and the upcoming Dem convention (don't ask me how, but it could have been done) on social programs for the poor, uninsured, and uneducated. I'm assuming that it is not against the law for a political party to underwrite or donate funds to non-profit organizations, if they have the cajones to do so. It's for damn sure no Republican Party would consider such a gesture. But then that would have been seen as buying votes. So what? As long as shit got fixed. All these years as an 'Mericuhn and I still need heavy meds during an election. Never mind that I've come to like the medication during non-election years, too.

 

[Trinity]

I'm so sick of this controversy. Most people who are mad about this are the ones who are afraid to step outside of their own comfortable culture for 5 seconds to understand what a "historically black church" really is. The hate in Jeremiah Wright's soul wasn't born from nowhere - it was created by hate possessed by whites in the 50's and 60's. I guarantee you that NO ONE HERE - especially white people - could even imagine the level of hatred that black men and women had to deal with in those times. While most blacks accepted their lesser status in society, some chose to stand up to their aggressor. While not all blacks handled the situation the same, think of what YOU would do in such a position. Try to imagine for a second, angry white people:

Could you even imagine living such a life? How would YOU feel about your country if it failed to protect your rights in such a way? How would YOU feel about the dominant race? Do you think you could EVER FORGIVE THEM?

Well, some blacks DID forgive them. Some, like Bob Marley and Martin Luther King, Jr., taught that you should work to end racism through love. And it was a fantastic message that worked proactively to begin the steps to dissolve our racial divide. But could you even expect that all of them should, or even COULD forgive the white man? I don't know that, if I were a black man at that time, that I could forgive the country that betrayed me.

Now I know you're probably saying to yourself "but chizz! We've had the Civil Rights Movement, and now we're all equal and blacks shouldn't hate us anymore! After all, I wasn't around then, and I didn't do anything to any black people!" Well this is true to an extent - but whites must learn to accept that society is still feeling the effects of slavery and Jim Crow today. Just look at the disproportionate percentage of blacks filling our prisons today (13% of the population, but 30% of the inmates). Look at the disproportionate percentage of blacks living in poverty (25% blacks, 9% whites). Think of these things, and think of growing up as a black man who lived through Jim Crow but still sees all of this poverty and crime in his black community. Do you think that you're going to be optimistic about the future of your children in a nation who's racial divide leaves them fewer hopes than their white peers?

Am I saying here that Wright's remarks were justified or patriotic? No. But if you ask anyone that goes to an historically black church, they will tell you that they've heard similar remarks from their pastor. Martin Luther King's church here in Atlanta - Ebeneezer Baptist - preaches the "social gospel" of Wright's variety. I don't believe this type of preaching is right, but I understand how it came about, and I can't really say that I blame Rev. Wright for feeling the way he does. But the real issue is that Barack Obama also understands these differences between those of Wright's generation and the voters of today. That's what his speech was all about. It was about understanding the differences between the races so that we can work together to end racism in the future.


But my final thought is this: would Barack Obama completely disowning his pastor make him any better of a president? Will it affect his ability to govern in the slightest? Do his views or his record show that he shares the views of his pastor at all? I don't think so. I think that this entire debate exists solely to further divide us, and sadly I think that it is working. Whether you support him or not, all I ask is that you really examine the issue of race a little further than a small prick through the skin.

Sorry for the length, but i know you guys like long things, sooo....

I'm sorry I must disagree. Not with everything...but with the overall point you are forwarding and others seem to be seconding. You clearly understand that African Americans view race and the race relations differently in America from White Americans. You obviously understand the political tradition that has been historical in the Black Church. And you understand the pain and hurt that many African Americans have had to deal with due to slavery and racism.

Where I disagree is Rev. Wright and the Trinity Church emboding the political tradition of the African American church. Rev. Wright and Trinity Church does not represent the Black Church or any preacher I've ever known. I've been a member of Predominantly African American Churches and never has a preacher gone to extent of Wright's profanity as a Man of God, the level of outlandish fabrications of the truth and utter Unamericanism. Never.

My pastors have certainly spoken to the congregation as a family and could have made white church goers bristle at the mention of white racism faced by Blacks. My pastors have certainly called on America to be the America defined in the Constitution...but never has a Pastor stated that Aids was created to genocide African Americans. Never has a pastor made statements about 9/11 like the ones stated by Wright. Never has a Paster writhed in the pulpit while disgracefully commenting on sex acts. Never has a Pastor used foul mouth profanity s*hit, bulls*hit, God Damn America in the pulpit.

Rev. Wright may be radical politically and he may harken to a 1960's movement against oppression, however his wrong beliefs do not represent by any means the majority of African American churches and what they believe. Rev. Wright is as far as you can get on the spectrum of "radicalism." I wouldn't call it radicalism because it gives a bad name to being radical. It borders on fanaticism.

Martin Luther King used love to drive out hate. Martin Luther King used light to drive out darkness. You can not preach hate and expect to stop hatred. Martin Luther King would not preach in a church that forwarded the type of messages that Rev. Wright is preaching and he would not be a member of a church like that either. That is not the legacy of Martin Luther King. The very nature of MLK's message is for America to be the America described in the Constitution...to live up to those words Obama loves to quote. If America claims every man is created equal then abolish Jim Crowe laws. Martin Luther King was not screaming God Damn America. Martin Luther King was screaming I have a dream of what America can be...and it involved Blacks and Whites, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics holding hands.

To answer your question. Yes. If Obama is who he claims to be he would have to explain that not leaving the church was either a mistake or admit he that should have spoken up and made a difference to show his Mentor and the high-fiving congregation the way they should go to transcend race. Either way, I couldn't vote for him for President. It shows a lack of judgment. I do not believe he is ready. It shows he wants to be President and has everything down pat that he should say, but doesn't know who he really is. Will it affect his ability to govern? Yes, it will affect Obama's ability to govern. Obama already states he wants to sit down with our enemies. I have little faith in his ability to read important situations and I little faith that he possesses the commonsense to know how,when or what to do in reaction to them. Does Obama share his pastor's views? Yes, to some extent he does. By Obama's own admission he states his Grandmother represents "the typical white person." Obama seems to have absorbed some of Wrights view of race. If you are asking whether Obama believes the conspiracy theories on 9/11 and Aids or the distasteful remarks about his opponent? It is not for the Voter to try and use ESP to learn or to even guess...It is for Obama to first actually be who he says he is and prove that to the American People. This relationship with Wright and membership in the church and subsequent speech and answers only cause voters to have more questions about Obama.

This debate is not here solely to divide us. Racism was already here. Obama asserted that race through his candidancy could be transcended and was brought back to earth when we saw the reality of a smudge evident in his own political image.

As for examining the true realities of Race Relations...we have yet to do that in this election and particularly with Obama. It has been clouded by nonsense with Rev. Wright and Obama's image. We have not truly talked about what African Americans face and how many are embarassed by the filth that Wright would wish to associate with them. This is not about Obama. This is about the people.

Whites do not need to swallow something clearly wrong to begin to understand African American discontent. The American people do not need to give Obama a pass for his lack of judgment in order to understand Race Relations in this country. That is an insult to Martin Luther King, a man who marched and died to stand for something else.

If Obama cared so much about and understood so well about African Americans and Race Relations in this Country then Obama would have attended the State of the Black Union last month instead of choosing not to attend. Every important Black intellectual, political or otherwise was in attendance except for him. Obama was formally asked to attend as a Presidential Candidate. Obama declined. Hillary Clinton attended.

 

[faceking]

20 years is a valid point, and the comments he's made thereafter. Anyone running for public office and with eyes on bigger prize should be smarter than that. That's modern politics....


This is going to be easy for McCain... thought it was going to be close in November.

Hillary hasn't pulled out how extreme Obama is... we're talking borderline-radical liberal... she can't she'd lose a bit of her base on looking too close to center-right.

His preacher hates America, his wife has pretty much hated America... etc.... spare the public the "criticism is more American", besides only when it's constructive and not hatemongering.

 

[faceking]

I'm sorry I must disagree. Not with ....ary Clinton attended.

wow, although I don't agree with some points therein... brilliant post. kudos.

 

[bobabooey69]

yeah man go get some fucking chipotle



and then join hands with the republicans to move this country forwards n shit....

Oh no you didn't! NO ONE disses Chipotle! Their burritos kick ass!

 

[fizzyjizz]

I dont really buy the whole Obama thing. He just seems like a slick PR man to me. I havent a clue what his opinions are on ANYTHING, i doubt if he even has any opinion on most issues.

Hes a career politician pure and simple. Im not American but i hope McCain wins. He has real integrity its just unbelievable what that man has done in his life. He is a real inspiration to me even if i dont agree with him on everything.

 

[playainda336]

His preacher hates America, his wife has pretty much hated America... etc.... spare the public the "criticism is more American", besides only when it's constructive and not hatemongering.

His wife doesn't hate America and never has expressed that sentiment. And his preacher doesn't hate America he condemns America for things that he found to be at fault. Patriotism isn't blindly following, patriotism is loving your country despite its faults...and loving it enough to call it out on itself.

I dont really buy the whole Obama thing. He just seems like a slick PR man to me. I havent a clue what his opinions are on ANYTHING, i doubt if he even has any opinion on most issues.

Hes a career politician pure and simple. Im not American but i hope McCain wins. He has real integrity its just unbelievable what that man has done in his life. He is a real inspiration to me even if i dont agree with him on everything.

Do some research on the man before you start spouting off mindless drivel that you heard from someone down the street, please?

 

[fizzyjizz]

Do some research on the man before you start spouting off mindless drivel that you heard from someone down the street, please?[/quote]


Well what did is say that was incorrect? He has a very inconsistant voting record, there doesnt seem to be anything INSIDE the man. Hes just in politics as a career. I want politicians ot be inspirational people who have strong political beliefs.

I think the reason he is doing so well is that ( as with Tony Blair over here) he can hide behind his vagueness. If people dont know anything about a politician, but they like his image, they then start to project their own ideas and aspirations onto them. This stragety worked very well for Blair. When he won his first election the people of the UK had no idea what they were voting for, and they didnt get much fuck knows. Its just really god PR and nothing more. Mood music for the masses.

 

[deleted85856]

How about the media focus on politics for a change?

 

[B_VinylBoy]

How about the media focus on politics for a change?

Best statement ever.
Seriously, what is the hooplah about this? Hillary has Geraldine Ferraro going insane, and Obama has the crazy preacher. How nice, everyone can play Six Degrees Of Seperation to a raving lunatic. Now, can we really get back to the more important issues and stop with this insane theories?

I don't know what's worse... the preacher saying things about terrorism that MANY people secretly agree with, or the raving fanactics on both camps screaming at each other for something so trivial??

 

[Industrialsize]

I'm sorry I must disagree. Not with everything...but with the overall point you are forwarding and others seem to be seconding. You clearly understand that African Americans view race and the race relations differently in America from White Americans. You obviously understand the political tradition that has been historical in the Black Church. And you understand the pain and hurt that many African Americans have had to deal with due to slavery and racism.

Where I disagree is Rev. Wright and the Trinity Church emboding the political tradition of the African American church. Rev. Wright and Trinity Church does not represent the Black Church or any preacher I've ever known. I've been a member of Predominantly African American Churches and never has a preacher gone to extent of Wright's profanity as a Man of God, the level of outlandish fabrications of the truth and utter Unamericanism. Never.

My pastors have certainly spoken to the congregation as a family and could have made white church goers bristle at the mention of white racism faced by Blacks. My pastors have certainly called on America to be the America defined in the Constitution...but never has a Pastor stated that Aids was created to genocide African Americans. Never has a pastor made statements about 9/11 like the ones stated by Wright. Never has a Paster writhed in the pulpit while disgracefully commenting on sex acts. Never has a Pastor used foul mouth profanity s*hit, bulls*hit, God Damn America in the pulpit.

Rev. Wright may be radical politically and he may harken to a 1960's movement against oppression, however his wrong beliefs do not represent by any means the majority of African American churches and what they believe. Rev. Wright is as far as you can get on the spectrum of "radicalism." I wouldn't call it radicalism because it gives a bad name to being radical. It borders on fanaticism.

Martin Luther King used love to drive out hate. Martin Luther King used light to drive out darkness. You can not preach hate and expect to stop hatred. Martin Luther King would not preach in a church that forwarded the type of messages that Rev. Wright is preaching and he would not be a member of a church like that either. That is not the legacy of Martin Luther King. The very nature of MLK's message is for America to be the America described in the Constitution...to live up to those words Obama loves to quote. If America claims every man is created equal then abolish Jim Crowe laws. Martin Luther King was not screaming God Damn America. Martin Luther King was screaming I have a dream of what America can be...and it involved Blacks and Whites, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics holding hands.

To answer your question. Yes. If Obama is who he claims to be he would have to explain that not leaving the church was either a mistake or admit he that should have spoken up and made a difference to show his Mentor and the high-fiving congregation the way they should go to transcend race. Either way, I couldn't vote for him for President. It shows a lack of judgment. I do not believe he is ready. It shows he wants to be President and has everything down pat that he should say, but doesn't know who he really is. Will it affect his ability to govern? Yes, it will affect Obama's ability to govern. Obama already states he wants to sit down with our enemies. I have little faith in his ability to read important situations and I little faith that he possesses the commonsense to know how,when or what to do in reaction to them. Does Obama share his pastor's views? Yes, to some extent he does. By Obama's own admission he states his Grandmother represents "the typical white person." Obama seems to have absorbed some of Wrights view of race. If you are asking whether Obama believes the conspiracy theories on 9/11 and Aids or the distasteful remarks about his opponent? It is not for the Voter to try and use ESP to learn or to even guess...It is for Obama to first actually be who he says he is and prove that to the American People. This relationship with Wright and membership in the church and subsequent speech and answers only cause voters to have more questions about Obama.

This debate is not here solely to divide us. Racism was already here. Obama asserted that race through his candidancy could be transcended and was brought back to earth when we saw the reality of a smudge evident in his own political image.

As for examining the true realities of Race Relations...we have yet to do that in this election and particularly with Obama. It has been clouded by nonsense with Rev. Wright and Obama's image. We have not truly talked about what African Americans face and how many are embarassed by the filth that Wright would wish to associate with them. This is not about Obama. This is about the people.

Whites do not need to swallow something clearly wrong to begin to understand African American discontent. The American people do not need to give Obama a pass for his lack of judgment in order to understand Race Relations in this country. That is an insult to Martin Luther King, a man who marched and died to stand for something else.

If Obama cared so much about and understood so well about African Americans and Race Relations in this Country then Obama would have attended the State of the Black Union last month instead of choosing not to attend. Every important Black intellectual, political or otherwise was in attendance except for him. Obama was formally asked to attend as a Presidential Candidate. Obama declined. Hillary Clinton attended.

Yup, Hillary attended so she could apologize and say her mea culpas for all the race baiting that had been coming out of her campaign......How many times did she say I'm sorry at the Black State of the Union? and yet she still can't apologize for her Iraq vote...what a gal

 

[D_Cyprius Slapwilly]

I'm sorry I must disagree. Not with everything...but with the overall point you are forwarding and others seem to be seconding. You clearly understand that African Americans view race and the race relations differently in America from White Americans. You obviously understand the political tradition that has been historical in the Black Church. And you understand the pain and hurt that many African Americans have had to deal with due to slavery and racism.

Where I disagree is Rev. Wright and the Trinity Church emboding the political tradition of the African American church. Rev. Wright and Trinity Church does not represent the Black Church or any preacher I've ever known. I've been a member of Predominantly African American Churches and never has a preacher gone to extent of Wright's profanity as a Man of God, the level of outlandish fabrications of the truth and utter Unamericanism. Never.

Maybe it's just my geographical location that makes the difference, but I can only disagree based on my own experiences. I've attended a few inner-city black churches over the years. Most of the sermons DON'T sound like the 20 second sound clips you heard from Rev. Wright, but I've heard a good deal of profanity from the pulpit when the preacher gets mad about injustice. But then again most of what Wright preaches doesn't sound like that either. So maybe most black churches in the country don't have preachers like Wright, but many of the one's I've attended do. And I can also say that I haven't met a black man or woman in Atlanta yet who was even so much as shocked by anything he said.

Just as an aside, I don't like using the word unamerican or any form of it. It reminds me of how Germans who criticized Hitler in the 30's were deemed unpatriotic, or how Wilson launched the initiative in 1917 to build public support for WWI by basically saying that you're either with us or against us. It's gotten to the point that saying bad things about your country when you disagree with the policies is unamerican, but in fact it's very, very American. Dissent and harsh criticisms were the basis of the foundations for this country.

Martin Luther King used love to drive out hate. Martin Luther King used light to drive out darkness. You can not preach hate and expect to stop hatred. Martin Luther King would not preach in a church that forwarded the type of messages that Rev. Wright is preaching and he would not be a member of a church like that either. That is not the legacy of Martin Luther King. The very nature of MLK's message is for America to be the America described in the Constitution...to live up to those words Obama loves to quote. If America claims every man is created equal then abolish Jim Crowe laws. Martin Luther King was not screaming God Damn America. Martin Luther King was screaming I have a dream of what America can be...and it involved Blacks and Whites, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics holding hands.

I couldn't agree more with you here. Martin Luther King has been a hero of mine for years and years. I know how he felt about these type of pastors and activists. I was merely talking about his church here as it is today. Ebenezer has changed over the years, and unfortunately it's changed in the direction of the less love-filled approach.

Don't get me wrong - I am not arguing that Rev. Wright's sermons were acceptable. My argument is just that Barack understood why he said what he did. Barack has even had discussions with his pastor on many occasions expressing these disagreements. But at the same time, regardless if you like his style or politics, Rev. Wright was the man that brought Barack to God. And I believe that religion is a very personal issue and shouldn't be put up for others to judge. I don't know that I would have made the decision to stay at the church, but I can only speak for myself. I don't know the closeness between the two men, and I don't think it has any effect on his ability to govern.

To answer your question. Yes. If Obama is who he claims to be he would have to explain that not leaving the church was either a mistake or admit he that should have spoken up and made a difference to show his Mentor and the high-fiving congregation the way they should go to transcend race. Either way, I couldn't vote for him for President. It shows a lack of judgment. I do not believe he is ready. It shows he wants to be President and has everything down pat that he should say, but doesn't know who he really is. Will it affect his ability to govern? Yes, it will affect Obama's ability to govern. Obama already states he wants to sit down with our enemies. I have little faith in his ability to read important situations and I little faith that he possesses the commonsense to know how,when or what to do in reaction to them. Does Obama share his pastor's views? Yes, to some extent he does. By Obama's own admission he states his Grandmother represents "the typical white person." Obama seems to have absorbed some of Wrights view of race. If you are asking whether Obama believes the conspiracy theories on 9/11 and Aids or the distasteful remarks about his opponent? It is not for the Voter to try and use ESP to learn or to even guess...It is for Obama to first actually be who he says he is and prove that to the American People. This relationship with Wright and membership in the church and subsequent speech and answers only cause voters to have more questions about Obama.

I guess I just have to sum this up by simply disagreeing. "Sitting down with our enemies" is how we won the Cold War. It's how we averted the Cuban Missile Crisis. As JFK once said, "We should never negotiate out of fear, but we should never fear to negotiate." The whole idea that sitting down with our enemies makes us look bad to the world is nothing but political spin created by fear-mongering talking heads. But it's ironic that it is spun in such a way, as these talking heads tend to idolize Ronald Reagan who held the same views as Obama on this particular issue (uh oh Obama agrees with Reagan BRING OUT THE FIRING SQUAD!).

I don't believe that his pastor will affect his ability to govern in the slightest. It's funny actually, because if you look at his political views 20 years ago and his political views today, you will see that he's moved significantly closer to the political center. In his first book he talked about how he once had an affinity for Marxist views and socialist/communist activist groups. I believe that the radical views of his pastor may have contributed to his political movement away from such views. Extremism always breeds extremism in the opposite direction after all.

This debate is not here solely to divide us. Racism was already here. Obama asserted that race through his candidancy could be transcended and was brought back to earth when we saw the reality of a smudge evident in his own political image.

I know that it was already here, but no one wants to talk about it. No one wants to understand the points-of-view of the other side. That's one of the reasons I'm glad this whole controversy actually happened, because it got us talking about something that's been swept under the carpet for too long. I don't expect the country to suddenly come together, but I think in time if the conversation remains then we will be on the right track to fixing our problems.

Whites do not need to swallow something clearly wrong to begin to understand African American discontent. The American people do not need to give Obama a pass for his lack of judgment in order to understand Race Relations in this country. That is an insult to Martin Luther King, a man who marched and died to stand for something else.

Once again, I'll just have to disagree. I don't think this has anything to do with his judgment, and I don't think anyone's giving him a pass here. His drop in the polls as of late reinforces that.

If Obama cared so much about and understood so well about African Americans and Race Relations in this Country then Obama would have attended the State of the Black Union last month instead of choosing not to attend. Every important Black intellectual, political or otherwise was in attendance except for him. Obama was formally asked to attend as a Presidential Candidate. Obama declined. Hillary Clinton attended.

Of course she attended - she needs to regain as much of their support as she can. I'm not arguing that in his favor, as I have no idea why he didn't attend. I don't think it necessarlity shows that he doesn't understand or care about the problems faced by blacks, but I definitely think it would have been a wise move to attend.

I know it's easy to get sucked in to your candidate, but sometimes you have to step back and remember that they're all poiticians. They are all going to pander to certain groups at all times. That is the only reason Hillary Clinton attended that event. Does that mean that she doesn't care about the problems of black America? Absolutely not. I believe that she has a great deal of passion about their problems. But the State of the Black Union had nothing to do with that.

 

[b.c.]

How about the media focus on politics for a change?

Exactly. Which is why I decided to largely ignore more threads like these. The purpose of them (and the intent of certain people here who keep posting them) is now all too obvious:

It's to get off the issues and get us embroiled in personality and nitpicky ideology debates among/between Obama and Clinton supporters. In so doing, we tear each other up and forget about the greater threats/adversaries.

I personally don't give a flying fuck which of the two end up as the democratic nominee. I do expect that the one with the most delegates going in gets the nomination and I expect the other to join hands as a supporter if not a running mate. End of story.

My concerns are about that other candidate, the Republican nominee, who says his plan on fixing our apparent lack of progress in Iraq is to send even more American men and women over there. That notion to me is fucking outrageous. Yet when I mentioned it before in another thread it got not even a response.

Goes to show where our heads are. I'm not participating on here anymore in Obama/Clinton bashing. We're doing exactly what they want.

 

[D_Cyprius Slapwilly]

Exactly. Which is why I decided to largely ignore more threads like these. The purpose of them (and the intent of certain people here who keep posting them) is now all too obvious:

It's to get off the issues and get us embroiled in personality and nitpicky ideology debates among/between Obama and Clinton supporters. In so doing, we tear each other up and forget about the greater threats/adversaries.

I personally don't give a flying fuck which of the two end up as the democratic nominee. I do expect that the one with the most delegates going in gets the nomination and I expect the other to join hands as a supporter if not a running mate. End of story.

My concerns are about that other candidate, the Republican nominee, who says his plan on fixing our apparent lack of progress in Iraq is to send even more American men and women over there. That notion to me is fucking outrageous. Yet when I mentioned it before in another thread it got not even a response.

Goes to show where our heads are. I'm not participating on here anymore in Obama/Clinton bashing. We're doing exactly what they want.

I agree with you. This is why I tried to keep my lengthy posts as free from Clinton/Obama/McCain bashing as possible. If there's one thing I like about McCain, it's that I don't expect his campaign to try to do anything other than debate the issues with the Democratic nominee. Of course the national Republican party will have no mercy, but such is politics. I normally would stay out of "debating" controversies like this, but I think this particular one has raised the entire issue of race which desperately needs to be openly talked about in this country.

 

[Trinity]

Maybe it's just my geographical location that makes the difference, but I can only disagree based on my own experiences. I've attended a few inner-city black churches over the years. Most of the sermons DON'T sound like the 20 second sound clips you heard from Rev. Wright, but I've heard a good deal of profanity from the pulpit when the preacher gets mad about injustice. But then again most of what Wright preaches doesn't sound like that either. So maybe most black churches in the country don't have preachers like Wright, but many of the one's I've attended do. And I can also say that I haven't met a black man or woman in Atlanta yet who was even so much as shocked by anything he said.

I also know few who are shocked that Wright said it. However, the majority of Americans do not agree with or share Wright's beliefs...which is why Obama condemned and repudiated them. No one sad Obama could not understand why Rev. Wright might be misguided. What the American people have a right to expect from a man who is running his campaign on a Message of Hope and Change to have stood up for change in his church and with his Mentor.

Just as an aside, I don't like using the word unamerican or any form of it. It reminds me of how Germans who criticized Hitler in the 30's were deemed unpatriotic, or how Wilson launched the initiative in 1917 to build public support for WWI by basically saying that you're either with us or against us. It's gotten to the point that saying bad things about your country when you disagree with the policies is unamerican, but in fact it's very, very American. Dissent and harsh criticisms were the basis of the foundations for this country.

I understand your view but I don't agree with it. Rev. Wright, just as each one of us has a right to dissent. However, if someone forwards conspiracy theories and states God Damn America as opposed to the posing dissent based on constitutional values that dissent is going to viewed in the manner it is framed.

Don't get me wrong - I am not arguing that Rev. Wright's sermons were acceptable. My argument is just that Barack understood why he said what he did. Barack has even had discussions with his pastor on many occasions expressing these disagreements. But at the same time, regardless if you like his style or politics, Rev. Wright was the man that brought Barack to God. And I believe that religion is a very personal issue and shouldn't be put up for others to judge. I don't know that I would have made the decision to stay at the church, but I can only speak for myself. I don't know the closeness between the two men, and I don't think it has any effect on his ability to govern.

Obama presented the relationship between his Mentor and Pastor. Obama was given ample opportunity to change his statements prior to the circulation of the videos. Obama did not. Obama condemned the statements after the fact. Religion is a very personal thing. I don't believe the American people are judging Obama on his personal relationship with God. The American people are judging Obama on critical 3am red phone situations. The American people are looking for leadership and for the candidate to do the things he claims he can do in the times when leadership is called for. Obama did not show leadership in the case of Wright and his Church.

I guess I just have to sum this up by simply disagreeing. "Sitting down with our enemies" is how we won the Cold War. It's how we averted the Cuban Missile Crisis. As JFK once said, "We should never negotiate out of fear, but we should never fear to negotiate." The whole idea that sitting down with our enemies makes us look bad to the world is nothing but political spin created by fear-mongering talking heads. But it's ironic that it is spun in such a way, as these talking heads tend to idolize Ronald Reagan who held the same views as Obama on this particular issue (uh oh Obama agrees with Reagan BRING OUT THE FIRING SQUAD!)

I have to disagree with you on the Cold War and the Cuban Missile Crisis. To go more indepth I would have to get off the subject. As for JFK's quote...I agree with it. There is nothing wrong with negotiating when it is appropriate to do so. Obama has not demonstrated the judgment to know when it is appropriate to do so nor the character to do it.

I don't believe that his pastor will affect his ability to govern in the slightest. It's funny actually, because if you look at his political views 20 years ago and his political views today, you will see that he's moved significantly closer to the political center. In his first book he talked about how he once had an affinity for Marxist views and socialist/communist activist groups. I believe that the radical views of his pastor may have contributed to his political movement away from such views. Extremism always breeds extremism in the opposite direction after all.

That could be speculation. Obama is stating some center views now but not really stepping away from "that affinity" you speak of.

I know that it was already here, but no one wants to talk about it. No one wants to understand the points-of-view of the other side. That's one of the reasons I'm glad this whole controversy actually happened, because it got us talking about something that's been swept under the carpet for too long. I don't expect the country to suddenly come together, but I think in time if the conversation remains then we will be on the right track to fixing our problems.

And we still haven't talked about it in any significant way.

Once again, I'll just have to disagree. I don't think this has anything to do with his judgment, and I don't think anyone's giving him a pass here. His drop in the polls as of late reinforces that.

To suggest that his lack of action does not bear on his judgment is asking for a pass. Obama attempting to explain away Wright and relating his pastor and church to the Black Church is asking for a pass.

Of course she attended - she needs to regain as much of their support as she can. I'm not arguing that in his favor, as I have no idea why he didn't attend. I don't think it necessarlity shows that he doesn't understand or care about the problems faced by blacks, but I definitely think it would have been a wise move to attend.

I know it's easy to get sucked in to your candidate, but sometimes you have to step back and remember that they're all poiticians. They are all going to pander to certain groups at all times. That is the only reason Hillary Clinton attended that event. Does that mean that she doesn't care about the problems of black America? Absolutely not. I believe that she has a great deal of passion about their problems. But the State of the Black Union had nothing to do with that.

Perhaps you need to read the book and watch the State of the Black Union. It has everything to do with the issues African Americans face in this Nation today. When Obama chose not to go to the State of the Black Union that was a major sign of just how much a politician he truly is. Thank you for pointing that out. When it comes down to standing for something, Obama continually demonstrates a lack of character.

 

[Nrets]

From an entirely uninformed standpoint (not having watched the video clip or even the news) I have 2 completely disconnected things to say:
Perhaps the things that that preacher was saying were true things that needed to be said about America, but no one wants to hear...I would be the one to say that since I jack off to radical ideas...but seriously sometimes the truth just pisses people off.
Secondly...if Hillary or McCain had attended some institution that was spewing similar sentiments to whatever that preacher was saying, would they still be considered as a possible candidate? Or has Obama got some sort of get out of jail free card because of white guilt over slavery?