Sigh, looks like I might be heading towards FWD for the next car :(

LeeEJ

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how old are you again?

Good point.

If the parents still have a say in what kind of car gets purchased, just get what they recommend. You'll get your chance to buy your dream car eventually.

Besides, most people that I know who bought their cars for "performance" never actually learn how to use them to their potential, and often can't restrain themselves to only do so in a safe, controlled environment.
 

NumberOne

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one word for speed, easy mods, handling, and looks...supra... a supra is always an attention getter and i barely see more of them than i see of cars like vipers and such.... but only the last gen of a supra..the earlier gens are ugly to me.... buy a 15k supra and throw 10k of work in the engine...you can eat a viper ALL day long
 

B_Fire-3

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one word for speed, easy mods, handling, and looks...supra... a supra is always an attention getter and i barely see more of them than i see of cars like vipers and such.... but only the last gen of a supra..the earlier gens are ugly to me.... buy a 15k supra and throw 10k of work in the engine...you can eat a viper ALL day long

25k is out of my price range. Besides I'm the proud owner of a brand new '04 Accord EX V6 Coupe, Black on Black, Manual, Leather, Navi, Satin Silver! couldn't be happier!! pics tomorrow.
 

NumberOne

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25k is out of my price range. Besides I'm the proud owner of a brand new '04 Accord EX V6 Coupe, Black on Black, Manual, Leather, Navi, Satin Silver! couldn't be happier!! pics tomorrow.
out of my price range too...thats why i bought a 500 dollar 240sx and threw an sr20det in it...buying a car with a blown motor is always a good deal (when the right engine is put back in it that is :)...couple of mods here in there in the engine and its running 300 rwhp...light car...eats stock cobras at least :) oh and 24mpg still pretty good...but yes...pictures!
 

ClaireTalon

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Besides, most people that I know who bought their cars for "performance" never actually learn how to use them to their potential, and often can't restrain themselves to only do so in a safe, controlled environment.

That is why in my opinion, makers of high-performance cars should offer the opportunity to test the limits of the car at a staked-out practice or test track, at least for buyers of these cars. I wonder what's the number of accidents which happen due to underestimation of specific behaviors (oversteering, breakaways, fishtailing) which are more distinct with high performance cars under unusual conditions.
 

jason_els

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The Porsche 911 (and its variants)

I think that car has taken more of its owners unaware than any other true sports car in history. If you didn't know how to manage the back end you could very easily maim or kill yourself and others.

The car most often flipped is not an SUV but the Chevrolet Corvette.

That is why in my opinion, makers of high-performance cars should offer the opportunity to test the limits of the car at a staked-out practice or test track, at least for buyers of these cars. I wonder what's the number of accidents which happen due to underestimation of specific behaviors (oversteering, breakaways, fishtailing) which are more distinct with high performance cars under unusual conditions.
 

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The Porsche 911 (and its variants)

I think that car has taken more of its owners unaware than any other true sports car in history. If you didn't know how to manage the back end you could very easily maim or kill yourself and others.

The early models were notorious, especially in the wet!! After about 40 years of stubborn German re-enginerring the current models are very very hard to push to the limit (on the road) but brutal when they are. So I've heard - I've never driven one.
 

HazelGod

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The early models were notorious, especially in the wet!! After about 40 years of stubborn German re-enginerring the current models are very very hard to push to the limit (on the road) but brutal when they are. So I've heard - I've never driven one.

It has more to do with electronic wizardry than with structural re-engineering. The ability to monitor the live state of both the engine and the body with millisecond precision allow features like anti-lock braking and traction control systems to dynamically detect and compensate for driver incompetence. With these developments, it's almost impossible to wreck a modern car by being unable to control its power or potential. That's not to say that the beast itself has been made any nicer...just that the control systems have been designed to be a little smarter about them than their human handlers.

I saw an article a few months back in one of the auto rags where they ran a sort of experiment on these systems. They put several drivers of various ages behind the wheel of a modern car with all the electronic smarts and ran them through time trials on a circuit course...then they ran the same people through the same course using a 1990 model vehicle with similar power and handling potential, but having none of the electronic controls (ABS, traction/stability control, etc). Not only did everyone's lap times go up by ~25%, but none of the drivers under 30 years old were able to keep the car on the course. Every single one of them spun the car off the track at least once...and these weren't sports
cars, they were typical family sedans.
 

dong20

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It has more to do with electronic wizardry than with structural re-engineering. The ability to monitor the live state of both the engine and the body with millisecond precision allow features like anti-lock braking and traction control systems to dynamically detect and compensate for driver incompetence. With these developments, it's almost impossible to wreck a modern car by being unable to control its power or potential. That's not to say that the beast itself has been made any nicer...just that the control systems have been designed to be a little smarter about them than their human handlers.

Yes, mostly electronics compensating for an inherently 'questionable' design. I wasn't really discriminating.

I saw an article a few months back in one of the auto rags where they ran a sort of experiment on these systems. They put several drivers of various ages behind the wheel of a modern car with all the electronic smarts and ran them through time trials on a circuit course...then they ran the same people through the same course using a 1990 model vehicle with similar power and handling potential, but having none of the electronic controls (ABS, traction/stability control, etc). Not only did everyone's lap times go up by ~25&#37;, but none of the drivers under 30 years old were able to keep the car on the course. Every single one of them spun the car off the track at least once...and these weren't sports
cars, they were typical family sedans.

That surprises me not at all. I'm not especially a fan of driver aids, but they do reduce accidents.
 

LeeEJ

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That is why in my opinion, makers of high-performance cars should offer the opportunity to test the limits of the car at a staked-out practice or test track, at least for buyers of these cars. I wonder what's the number of accidents which happen due to underestimation of specific behaviors (oversteering, breakaways, fishtailing) which are more distinct with high performance cars under unusual conditions.

How many? LOTS. All those wrecks of Ferrari Enzos, for example, were drivers who had more money than sense.

Usually, when drivers are taught about these situations using in-car instruction & practice, they learn how easily such accidents happen and how inherently dangerous public roads really are.

Yes, mostly electronics compensating for an inherently 'questionable' design. I wasn't really discriminating.

Eh, kinda, but there's also been a whole lot of suspension tuning & redesign done on the 911 design over the years. The amount of negative camber at the rear of a new, stock 911 is a LOT -- more than I usually run at the front of my car for autocross season.
 

dong20

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Eh, kinda, but there's also been a whole lot of suspension tuning & redesign done on the 911 design over the years. The amount of negative camber at the rear of a new, stock 911 is a LOT -- more than I usually run at the front of my car for autocross season.

True, but hanging an engine behind the back wheels of a powerful sports car isn't usually considered a defining feature of a good design and even 40 years of tweeking can negate that. The new ones are far far better in many ways, some mechanical, some electronic but the two elements are dependent on each other to make the car function so well.

Turn off the electronics and put the hammer down and I'd wager the car yearns eagerly for the bad old days. Even so I doubt many drivers will reach the limits of a current model before they reach their own!
 

B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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one word for speed, easy mods, handling, and looks...supra... a supra is always an attention getter and i barely see more of them than i see of cars like vipers and such.... but only the last gen of a supra..the earlier gens are ugly to me.... buy a 15k supra and throw 10k of work in the engine...you can eat a viper ALL day long

I see Supras all the frickin' time. They're always trying to race me. They always lose. There's tons of ricer@#&#37;s around here. Plenty of Supras, NSXs, 3000GTs, Lancers, Subarus, etc. Many of them are heavily modified. The only ricer$#% dreamcar that's rare here is the Skyline and I've even seen a couple of those. One white one used to be parked at GMU once in a while. Everyone tries to race me on the road. Nobody can keep up. Only the C6 Corvettes even really come close. Or other Vipers.

Maybe a Supra will get you attention in Nashville. I know in many parts of the South that I've been to (obviously discounting Florida) about the nicest car you ever see is an Eclipse or a Mustang. But in Northern Virginia they are ubiquitous and quite ordinary.
 

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I wonder what's the number of accidents which happen due to underestimation of specific behaviors (oversteering, breakaways, fishtailing) which are more distinct with high performance cars under unusual conditions.

What exactly is a breakaway?
All wheels lose traction and you just continue in a given direction without being able to correct?
 

NumberOne

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I see Supras all the frickin' time. They're always trying to race me. They always lose. There's tons of ricer@#&#37;s around here. Plenty of Supras, NSXs, 3000GTs, Lancers, Subarus, etc. Many of them are heavily modified. The only ricer$#% dreamcar that's rare here is the Skyline and I've even seen a couple of those. One white one used to be parked at GMU once in a while. Everyone tries to race me on the road. Nobody can keep up. Only the C6 Corvettes even really come close. Or other Vipers.

Maybe a Supra will get you attention in Nashville. I know in many parts of the South that I've been to (obviously discounting Florida) about the nicest car you ever see is an Eclipse or a Mustang. But in Northern Virginia they are ubiquitous and quite ordinary.

Look up the Titan motorsports supra...and look up on youtube or whatever "Dan Millen"and "tim lynch"...thats the fastest mustangs ive seen..and the supra is one of the fastest ive seen....show me a street car faster than...i beg you...find someone faster than dan millen or tim lynch...YouTube - Sound Performance's World's Fastest Street Supra
 

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Jason: You are right about the Corvettes. They are truly beautiful cars, but unfortunately, they are nowhere near the world-class handlers they COULD be. I have driven the C2-C6. They are very sloppy in the handling department. I hate driving those. Another thing I hate about those is that they're not forgiving. If you manage to get into trouble in one, you have to do everything right to get it back out. Most people aren't skilled enough to know how to do that.

I like the Toyota Supras. They can be awesome cars when tuned right. But in the Toyota lineup, The best handler is the MR2. Only people that truly *KNOW* how to drive (like myself :biggrin1: ) can get the best out of them. Porche only WISHES their cars would handle as well without all the gadgetry.

My Mustang (which was built before Viper was even thought of) has no problem keeping up with a Viper. While it won't win a drag race against a Viper, it will pull just as many G's in the cornering, and will do 180mph. Like the Viper, it's steering is 2 turns lock-to-lock, has true neutral steering unlike Viper which still has a touch of understeer, It seats 4 and still has room for their stuff. Ever see 4 people in a Viper? It also gets 30mpg on the highway. All this straight off the showroom floor. It's definitely not as flashy as a Viper, but I like my little grocery-getter.

For those of you considering the AWD option might want to shy away from the GM/GMC/Chevy trucks. They have a tendency to literally dig their own holes. I have actually witnessed this at the beach. The truck's computer wouldn't turn all 4 tires at the same time, it would pick and choose which tires to spin when it saw fit. It dug it's own hole in 3 minutes. Had all 4 tires been allowed to turn TOGETHER, it would never have gotten stuck. It had to be towed out by a true 4 wheel drive pickup.
 

ClaireTalon

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How many? LOTS. All those wrecks of Ferrari Enzos, for example, were drivers who had more money than sense.

Ah, Italian cars. So wonderful to look at. No longer when you drive them.

Usually, when drivers are taught about these situations using in-car instruction & practice, they learn how easily such accidents happen and how inherently dangerous public roads really are.

Exactly that is why I recommend each of my acquaintances who gets a high performance car to look out for special training courses. They may cost a few hundred bucks, but in contrary to the usual basic driving school, you really learn how to drive a car under boundary conditions. Pays off the first time that road conditions get really crappy.


That surprises me not at all. I'm not especially a fan of driver aids, but they do reduce accidents.

My sentiments exactly. However, they are only able to correct to take countermeasures within the boundaries of physics, and are no wonder weapon or cure-all.

What exactly is a breakaway?
All wheels lose traction and you just continue in a given direction without being able to correct?

Breakaways can occurr if you apply too much power in a turn, especially if the road is slippery. Due to a loss of traction, the tail gets unstable and follows other forces than the cornering force. What happens then is depending on the drivers reaction, the mass arrangement and other factors, but at least you do a nice 180- or more turn. Oh, and pray that nothing is at the side of the road, such as a tree, for example.
 

jason_els

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Ah, Italian cars. So wonderful to look at. No longer when you drive them.

Hehe, I remember C&D once doing a road test on a Countach. It scraped even dipped curbs going into parking lots and the owner actually had a chase car in case it broke down. My friend's mom had a Biturbo that would die in the most astounding ways. Things just fell off or broke without warning. She got merely 30,000 miles out of the car (and we live in a rural area) before she had enough. She found herself taking her wagon everywhere instead.

Exactly that is why I recommend each of my acquaintances who gets a high performance car to look out for special training courses. They may cost a few hundred bucks, but in contrary to the usual basic driving school, you really learn how to drive a car under boundary conditions. Pays off the first time that road conditions get really crappy.

I've always wanted to take the Skip Barber course! I'm sure there is much I could learn though I am very good in snow and ice. Pity courses like this are so far and few between and so expensive.

My sentiments exactly. However, they are only able to correct to take countermeasures within the boundaries of physics, and are no wonder weapon or cure-all.

Newton's First Law!

"An object at rest, tends to stay at rest.
An object in motion tends to stay in motion,
at the same speed, in a straight line."


Breakaways can occur if you apply too much power in a turn, especially if the road is slippery. Due to a loss of traction, the tail gets unstable and follows other forces than the cornering force. What happens then is depending on the drivers reaction, the mass arrangement and other factors, but at least you do a nice 180- or more turn. Oh, and pray that nothing is at the side of the road, such as a tree, for example.

Precisely what killed my friend Donna Lombardi at the age of 17. A 300ZX, a sweeping curve, a rainy night, a tree, and no seatbelts. She wasn't even driving.
 

B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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Look up the Titan motorsports supra...and look up on youtube or whatever "Dan Millen"and "tim lynch"...thats the fastest mustangs ive seen..and the supra is one of the fastest ive seen....show me a street car faster than...i beg you...find someone faster than dan millen or tim lynch...YouTube - Sound Performance's World's Fastest Street Supra

I didn't see this post until just now.

But it took me 2 seconds to find this:

YouTube - Heffners 7.74 second viper

Still... if it's not stock... then it's really not worth arguing about. You can modify anything to go fast. I've seen a 7-second Eagle Talon. It's retarded to say that Supras are fast if you are only referring to ones that have been heavily modified. Of course they are. So are heavily modded Vipers for that matter. Though the Viper in my example is faster (by a pretty big margin) than the Supra in yours, which claims to be the "fastest in the world."