Thanks to everyone for their point of view, it helps put some order on the random thoughts in my head. I just think that friendship should be a two way street ya know? Im tired of always making the effort, but at the same time i hate being cut off from people that i otherwise get on with really well. Really well. In an ideal world the word compromise would pop up somewhere, but these particular worms are not for turning. Whatever 'A' says goes really. If he doesnt want to move, nobody moves. If he wants to go to the cinema, everyone goes to the cinema. If he doesnt want to reply to my text messages he wont. Ive seen him checking his phone and just saying 'nope' and putting it back in his pocket. I text him yesterday and the day before, and rang him yesterday, but still no reply. mrs_average just thinks let them go, but i dont like upsetting people, least of all myself.
So called friends
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Phil Ayesho
Superior Member
People who are 'givers' seldom realize that most people feel a sense of reciprocity over such exchanges... and they are the last to understand that giving to another TAKES something from them.
This is not to say giving is a bad thing... but that it has to be balanced with allowing others to be the one to give, as well.
And your own sense of abandonment is prefect proof that you DO give to receive. You Expect appreciation, You Expect gratitude, and you Expect friendship. And when you are denied these returns on your investment in caring and energy, you feel slighted and hurt.
Please don't take this to suggest that you are the culprit. All human beings feel some sense of social reciprocity. Your 'friends' feel that they are obliged... and resent it... just as you feel you are owed some consideration, and resent not getting it.
It is because the social compact between you and them is out of balance.
it is not necessarily something they even understand... it is just a feeling of unease that they may well be unable to explain.
Not all givers are being manipulative... I am not suggesting your motives are not good, but that you are misunderstanding the psychological effects on Others of your being the giver, out of proportion to asking others for help.
I never suggested you didn't have an 'adult' life. I suggested you shift your focus onto THAT rather than clinging to a social circle that no longer satisfies... largely because most of your friends are also having to shift their focus away from the group of "friends" that once formed their primary circle.
Further... sorry, but you did your friend a dis-service. He asked for your help, and he accepted your help... but your help took the form of taking over and making decisions FOR him...
Sometimes, the best help you can offer is to merely ask questions that he should be asking himself to clarify what kind of gift would speak about his own feelings... and then leave it to him to make it happen, or not.
I understand your frustration... and certainly there ARE folks who are just "takers"... but what is the likelihood that ALL of your friends are takers?
Is your judgment of other people so poor that you would take so many of such people on as friends?
Will you assume they are mere ingrates and you, yourself, perfect, and thereby destroy any ability to like or admire these people who were once your friends?
Or can you consider that you can save these friendships by recognizing that even the best of intentions can be taken by others in a manner that you do not always expect?
That you might be clinging to a dynamic that is becoming increasingly irrelevant as this group of people age and change?
Try this... the next time you call one of them... call them when you really need some help. Offer them the chance to be the hero... and see how quickly they come to your aid.
How such a thing can clear the air between you and someone you have given to, time and again.
And, relax, and be cool with the fact that the people in your life ebb and flow... ad the focus of your time changes with the years.
If you do not even see some of them for a decade at a throw... it won't mean that friendship is not just as strong as it ever was... it will only mean that life moves on.
Sorry if you took my input as offensive.
It was not offered in that spirit.
Phil Ayesho
Superior Member
Is it just this one event of which you complain?
Maybe he's a jerk.... Does that explain your comments about the others in your circle?
Regardless of what he asked... Your response was to handle it for him.
Now you are upset because you did not get something in return the you expected.
He was clear about what he was asking for... Were you clear about your expectation in return?
Marcus Aurelius said, if you are troubled by any external thing, it is not that thing that troubles you, but your own estimation of it... And THAT you have the power to change in any instant.
If it's just the one guy... Maybe it's him.
If it's all the folks you call friend, then it's your problem... Either in how you are behaving, or in how you choose friends.
Maybe he's a jerk.... Does that explain your comments about the others in your circle?
Regardless of what he asked... Your response was to handle it for him.
Now you are upset because you did not get something in return the you expected.
He was clear about what he was asking for... Were you clear about your expectation in return?
Marcus Aurelius said, if you are troubled by any external thing, it is not that thing that troubles you, but your own estimation of it... And THAT you have the power to change in any instant.
If it's just the one guy... Maybe it's him.
If it's all the folks you call friend, then it's your problem... Either in how you are behaving, or in how you choose friends.
Phil Ayesho
Superior Member
Is it just this one event of which you complain?
Maybe he's a jerk.... Does that explain your comments about the others in your circle?
Regardless of what he asked... Your response was to handle it for him.
Now you are upset because you did not get something in return the you expected.
He was clear about what he was asking for... Were you clear about your expectation in return?
Marcus Aurelius said, if you are troubled by any external thing, it is not that thing that troubles you, but your own estimation of it... And THAT you have the power to change in any instant.
If it's just the one guy... Maybe it's him.
If it's all the folks you call friend, then it's your problem... Either in how you are behaving, or in how you choose friends.
Maybe he's a jerk.... Does that explain your comments about the others in your circle?
Regardless of what he asked... Your response was to handle it for him.
Now you are upset because you did not get something in return the you expected.
He was clear about what he was asking for... Were you clear about your expectation in return?
Marcus Aurelius said, if you are troubled by any external thing, it is not that thing that troubles you, but your own estimation of it... And THAT you have the power to change in any instant.
If it's just the one guy... Maybe it's him.
If it's all the folks you call friend, then it's your problem... Either in how you are behaving, or in how you choose friends.
You're a giver. Therefore when someone asks for your help, you enjoy giving it. This enjoyment is what you take. And all that you expect in return is for your help to be appreciated. Maybe you can tell them "please appreciate me" a few more times, but the more you have to say it the less it actually means.
Look, this doesn't have to be difficult. This is YOUR life, and anyone you choose to include in it should be happy to call you their friend. You learn very quickly that the people who deserve it will merit your friendship. Actions speak louder than words.
I'm not exactly Mr. Popular, Charismatic, Alpha-Male, Leader, Social Butterfly Guy myself. I, too, relate as an average giver and not a taker. But I tell you what: my friends call/text me. They return my phone calls. They return my text messages. And hell, sometimes THEY call/text me first. We talk about their lives, we talk about my life, I get invited over, they get invited over. When they need a favor I'm there, when I need a favor they're there. This is what we call a "friendship."
Look, this doesn't have to be difficult. This is YOUR life, and anyone you choose to include in it should be happy to call you their friend. You learn very quickly that the people who deserve it will merit your friendship. Actions speak louder than words.
I'm not exactly Mr. Popular, Charismatic, Alpha-Male, Leader, Social Butterfly Guy myself. I, too, relate as an average giver and not a taker. But I tell you what: my friends call/text me. They return my phone calls. They return my text messages. And hell, sometimes THEY call/text me first. We talk about their lives, we talk about my life, I get invited over, they get invited over. When they need a favor I'm there, when I need a favor they're there. This is what we call a "friendship."
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No Im not upset that i don't have them falling at my feet in appreciation of all I've done for them over the years, Im upset that so called good friends are not travelling on the two way street of friendship. A text to see how things are or just to chat shit doesn't take much effort. Its not the giving and the taking and the taking and the giving, its the general lack of interest in a friends life. I take interest in my friends lives and help out when i can, and have some laughs along the way that's what friends do right? Its not about giving and taking and all that shite.
Is this just a platonic group of friends or is it an "interest group" group of friends? And the reason why I am asking this is because the "interest group" type of friends usually have their own rules. Interest groups like, Kink Friendly, BDSM, Swingers etc.
Anyways.....you obviously know how this group rolls. You need to make the decision of whether you want to hang with them and put up with them treating you like a drink bitch or whether you want to venture out and meet up with another group of friendlier people. There are all kinds of meet up groups out there for whatever your interests are. You and the Mrs. are gorgeous and you sound like a great friend. Remember the only person that you can change is yourself and the way that you feel about / look at things.
Anyways.....you obviously know how this group rolls. You need to make the decision of whether you want to hang with them and put up with them treating you like a drink bitch or whether you want to venture out and meet up with another group of friendlier people. There are all kinds of meet up groups out there for whatever your interests are. You and the Mrs. are gorgeous and you sound like a great friend. Remember the only person that you can change is yourself and the way that you feel about / look at things.
Phil Ayesho
Superior Member
I think you miss the point.... it does not matter what he asks you for. people who ask for food stamps, or unemployment money, Often resent both having to ask and the fact that they are not more independent.
People who have to ASK for a raise, often resent the person who Gives it to them, for not having offered it without being asked ( i.e. for not having recognized their worth and rewarding it on their own)
Again... I am not meaning to point the finger at you, but to make you aware of a peculiar fact about human beings and charity.
The one receiving charity, or a gift, often responds with resentment.
This resentment is tied to reciprocity... the boss who only gives a raise when asked, is going to expect something in return... as if it is a favor he did, and not merited entirely by the employee's value. - or so the resentful employee suspects, regardless of whether it is true.
The person who stands in line for food stamps feels humiliated by the process of having to identify themselves as in need, unable to stand on their own.
And The person you do a favor for, ESPECIALLY at their own request, feels an obligation to you that they may be unable to reciprocate.
People who are givers, OFTEN are the last persons to ever ask for help... they pride themselves on their ability and willingness to help others... and fail to recognize that they are creating social imbalances in their relationships by forever being the one others can rely on... but never needing those others aid in turn.
I tell you this because I know where you stand. I was someone for whom life came easy. I succeeded at nearly everything I tried, and seldom saw any setback. I was generous and giving to all my friends... and puzzled over the fact that they seemed to avoid me, more and more as time wore on.
Then my life imploded... a divorce, the loss of a house, my income fell suddenly in the midst of enormous legal bills and support payments...
And tho I did not ask for help... all these people who had been avoiding me for years, suddenly came out of the woodwork with emotional, financial and other kinds of support...
I remember one friend, who was in no position to offer much in the way of aid, nevertheless came by twice a week to bring me a delicious dinner, Somehow knowing I would be too despondent to even think about food.
This period of my being in need dramatically changed all these friendships... they deepened, mellowed and became far more dear in every respect.
This was when I first realized how much my own impervious largess had made them feel less able, less helpful, and less nobel than I.
And how, thru the simple act of graciously accepting their help, I made them truly feel my equal, and like they were as important to me as I had tried to be to them.
This is why consciousness must be brought to any act of charity or help you offer. You must consider what that person really needs, rather than what you might have, or be willing, to offer.
But most importantly... it is why turning to someone you have helped in the past, to cry on their shoulder, to allow them to be, for you, what you have been for them, is truly the greatest gift, the deepest favor you can offer another human being.
That good feeling you get when you are able to be there for someone?
That is what you give when you accept help from a friend.
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Oy, Phil is describing the burden of "noblesse oblige"... where one person (Phil) had so much more than everyone else that they began to resent his "gifts" as put-downs and then when he ran into some kind of legal difficulties, and needed him they helped him.
Totally different situation than the one the OP describes.
OP, these people have clearly decided to move on from you... let them, it's not a big loss. Think of it like this: You are now the "Nope." when his cell phone rings. If he were truly your friend, it would be "Hello" and not "Hell No."
Totally different situation than the one the OP describes.
OP, these people have clearly decided to move on from you... let them, it's not a big loss. Think of it like this: You are now the "Nope." when his cell phone rings. If he were truly your friend, it would be "Hello" and not "Hell No."
No one can take advantage of you without your permission, or compliance.
Some are nurses, others are patients.
Make a decision.
Do anything nice for someone, or go out of your way on their behalf, get no thanks nor recognition ...? That is, in my books anyway ...not acceptable. End of story, end of my efforts for them. friends ? Nope.
Some are nurses, others are patients.
Make a decision.
Do anything nice for someone, or go out of your way on their behalf, get no thanks nor recognition ...? That is, in my books anyway ...not acceptable. End of story, end of my efforts for them. friends ? Nope.
MrMXYZPTLK
Expert Member
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