So what's bush going to do about North Korea now?

davidjh7

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tripod said:
Is this thread about North Korea or the fight between MMM and MZ? Did anyone read my post which I popped sixty brain cells to bring forth? I had some interesing points...

I agree--it definately had interesting points. And they may be justified. I don;t see Japan as a real world military threat, however, despite the generations before WWII that still lived by the warlord superiority attitude. Why? Simple economics. One of the reasons that Japan became a world economic power, despite having very few natural resources of its own, was because the country could devote its entire GNP to building the countries infrastructure, and economic base. It didn;t have to spend any money on a big military. It had guranteed protection, and still does (as good as any gurantees made by a country are anymore). They have lost a great deal of their economic power, since they followed the western model and started shipping out their industrial base for a quick buck, so they have less incentive to ratchet themselves up as a military power than they did 50 years ago. I'm likely full of it, but this is how I see the situation.
 

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BuddyBoy said:
I'm wondering if it's possible that this test was a bluff. 550 tons of conventional HE vs. a small nuke? I wonder.
*dodges between all the scum to address a technical point* :rolleyes:

South Korean state media report that the Korea Institute of Geoscience and Mineral Resources (also in South Korea) has revised its original reading of 550 tons up to 800 tons. Maybe it'll keep on increasing yet. :rolleyes:

[source; Korean-language only]
 

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tripod said:
Is this thread about North Korea or the fight between MMM and MZ? Did anyone read my post which I popped sixty brain cells to bring forth? I had some interesing points...
I read your 8:15 post and you have excellent points. North Korea IS China's problem at this point. That's why this whole thread is silly. So, "...what bush goint to do about North Korea?"......Nothing. China can handle it, and probably will. If not, then we can whine and gripe some more.

However, this thread is an excellent study on American politics;

Side A cannot support their actions, and side B cannot offer any solutions. In the meantime, we'll all just call each other names and get our dander up. It's what our politicians want. If we're busy arguing back and forth, we won't notice that they're lining their own pockets, taking away our freedoms, and ruining our country for our children.
 

joyboytoy79

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tripod said:
Is this thread about North Korea or the fight between MMM and MZ? Did anyone read my post which I popped sixty brain cells to bring forth? I had some interesing points...

You, sir, had some EXCELLENT points. I'm all for getting back on topic. I would very much like to hear what MMM has to say about the actual topic at hand. Why is this such a breaking news story? Could it possibly be that Bush and Co. were counting on this to happen so they could deflect attention away from what's really going on and use the fear to generate a few much needed votes?
 

tripod

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Great point Joyboytoy, I didn't even think about the propaganda/mindfuck that this serves. Just what the doctor ordered for the headache that is the Foley scandal, Afghanistan debacle, and the Iraq horror!

Oh, Japan has always been a world power and has traditionally seen Korea as a colonial posession.
 

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nineplus said:
Side A cannot support their actions, and side B cannot offer any solutions.
Wrong. Side B has offered plenty of solutions:

In 2004, John Kerry offered this solution:

Kerry said he would immediately begin bilateral negotiations with North Korea -- a goal the Pyongyang government has long sought. But, perhaps in a nod to the sensitivities of the Japanese, the South Koreans and the Chinese, he said he would not abandon the six-nation talks.


"I would keep them both going," Kerry said. "I would do the six-party [talks], but I would engage in bilateral discussions."

In fact, North Korea was the issue that distinguished Side A's foreign policy from that of Side B during the 2004 Presidential Election: "Privately, experts say the crisis on the Korean peninsula represents possibly the most blatant foreign policy split between the two candidates." (source)

In 2005, Senators Carl Levin, Harry Reid, Joseph Biden, and John Rockefeller drafted a joint letter to George W. Bush recommending specific actions regarding North Korea:

First, we urge you to appoint a special envoy to coordinate Korea policy and represent us in direct dialogue with North Korea and at the Six Party talks. The United States should not fear talking to other nations, and when we do, we should speak with one authoritative voice.

Second, priorities must be set. Our most urgent tasks are to end North Korea’s production of plutonium, remove all fissile material from the country, and dismantle its nuclear weapons related facilities. To accomplish these objectives, the United States should continue to propose a phased, reciprocal, verifiable deal to eliminate North Korea’s nuclear weapons programs in exchange for security assurances, economic assistance, and diplomatic normalization. [...]

There is no guarantee that this diplomatic effort will succeed, but the current approach seems almost guaranteed to fail.
So when you claim that Side B has no solutions, you simply haven't done your homework. Side B has been offering solutions that Side A arrogantly rejected. Even Side B doesn't have the power to undo events today that have already happened. We could have acted before North Korea developed nukes, but we can't magically make them go away now that they're here.
 

rob_just_rob

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To address the original question: I don't think Bush has to do anything about North Korea. We've been fed a lot of stories about what an egomaniac Dear Leader is - well, what head of state isn't? And we've been fed a lot of stories in the past about how our nuclear-armed enemies are fanatics who are willing to destroy the world for their ideology. Well, I don't believe it. Aside from the fact that all the past stories turned out to be false, common sense tells me that the NK regime isn't going to nuke anyone out of the blue, because they KNOW they'll get nuked back, 20 times as hard.

(This reasoning applies to Iran, too)

Moreover, I fail to see why the North Koreans and Iranians can't be trusted with nukes. The U.S. is the only country that has ever used them (and has threatened to use them on other, multiple occasions) - but the U.S. is allowed nukes... hmmm... is this a 'might makes right' doctrine? If it is... then get all the nukes you can, right?

The lesson that Dear Leader and his Iranian counterpart have learned is that if you say you don't have nukes (Iraq), you'll get invaded. If you do have nukes (NK), you (so far) don't get invaded. So who can blame Iran and N. Korea for having nuclear ambitions? They're small countries surrounded by U.S. allies and troops. It's entirely reasonable that they feel insecure about that, and desire a deterrent.

Anyway, to get back to my first point - despite not having to do anything, Bush will certainly think he has to do something. So there'll be some huffing and puffing, talk of (and maybe actual) sanctions. And nothing will change.
 

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mindseye said:
Wrong. Side B has offered plenty of solutions:

In 2004, John Kerry offered this solution:



In fact, North Korea was the issue that distinguished Side A's foreign policy from that of Side B during the 2004 Presidential Election: "Privately, experts say the crisis on the Korean peninsula represents possibly the most blatant foreign policy split between the two candidates." (source)

In 2005, Senators Carl Levin, Harry Reid, Joseph Biden, and John Rockefeller drafted a joint letter to George W. Bush recommending specific actions regarding North Korea:


So when you claim that Side B has no solutions, you simply haven't done your homework. Side B has been offering solutions that Side A arrogantly rejected. Even Side B doesn't have the power to undo events today that have already happened. We could have acted before North Korea developed nukes, but we can't magically make them go away now that they're here.

I'm sorry Mindseye, I might agree in some cases, but history has proven that talks/treaties/diplomatic solutions with nutbag tyranical dictators aren't real solutions. I'm sure any Poles alive 2 September, 1939 would concur.
 

D_Masteur Baetes

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In case anyone is interested here is the timeline. It looks like we can all blame whomever we wish!

North Korea's first detonation of a nuclear weapon may have taken place during the watch of George W. Bush — but it was under the Clinton administration's watch that the communist regime began gathering necessary materials and constructing the bomb.

As Western powers race to confirm that North Korea did in fact explode a nuclear device in Gilju, a remote region in the Hamgyong province, some see it as a culmination of weak U.S. action during the 1990s that led to this fateful day.


Fateful Beginnings After entering into an agreement with the United States in 1994, the Clinton administration ignored evidence the North Koreans were violating the agreement and continuing to build a nuclear weapon. "In July of 2002, documentary evidence was found in the form of purchase orders for the materials necessary to enrich uranium,"
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/10/19/180910.shtml



"In October 2002, Assistant Secretary of State James Kelly met with his North Korean counterpart for scheduled talks. Kelly confronted North Korea with the tangible evidence of its duplicity. After a day of outright denial, North Korea abruptly reversed its position and defiantly acknowledged a secret nuclear program."


Timeline of a Nuclear Bomb
A review of recent history shows that that the Clinton administration gave up a clear and perhaps last best chance to nip the North Korean bomb in the bud:

1985: North Korea signs the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.


1989: The Central Intelligence Agency discovers the North Koreans are building a reprocessing facility — a reactor capable of converting fuel rods into weapons-grade plutonium. The fuel rods were extracted 10 years before from that nation's Yongbyon reactor.
The rods represent a shortcut to enriched plutonium and an atomic bomb.
/images/banners/SubnewsmaxO250x250.gif
Spring, 1994: A year into President Clinton's first term, North Korea prepares to remove the Yongbyon fuel rods from their storage site. North Korea expels international weapons inspectors and withdraws from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

Clinton asks the United Nations Security Council to consider sanctions. North Korean spokesmen proclaim such sanctions would cause war.

The Pentagon draws up plans to send 50,000 troops to South Korea — along with 400 war planes, 50 ships, Apache helicopters, Bradley fighting vehicles, and Patriot missiles. An advance force of 250 soldiers is sent in to set up headquarters for the expanded force.

Clinton balks and sets up a diplomatic back-channel to end the crisis — former President Jimmy Carter. Exceeding instructions, Carter negotiates the outlines of a treaty and announces the terms live on CNN.

Oct. 21, 1994: The United States and North Korea sign a formal accord based on those outlines, called the Agreed Framework. Under its terms:

North Korea promises to renew its commitment to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, lock up the fuel rods, and let inspectors back in to monitor the facility.

The United States agrees — with financial backing from South Korea and Japan — that it will provide two light-water nuclear reactors for electricity, send a large supply of fuel oil, and that it will not invade North Korea.

Upon delivery of the first light-water reactor, inspections of suspected North Korean nuclear sites were supposed to start. After the second reactor arrived, North Korea was supposed to ship its fuel rods out of the country.

The two countries also agreed to lower trade barriers and install ambassadors in each other's capitals — with the United States providing full assurances that it would never use nuclear weapons against North Korea.

(None of the above came to pass. Congress did not make the financial commitment — neither did South Korea. The light-water reactors were never funded. The enumerated steps toward normalization were never taken.)
Jan. 2002: In President Bush's State of the Union Address, he famously labels North Korea, Iran, and Iraq as an "axis of evil."

Oct., 2002: Officials from the U.S. State Department fly to Pyongyang, where that government admits it had acquired centrifuges for processing highly enriched uranium, which could be used for building nuclear weapons.

It is now clear to all parties that the promised reactors are never going to be built. Normalization of relations fizzles.

The CIA learns that North Korea may have been acquiring centrifuges for enriching uranium since the late 1990s — probably from Pakistan.

Oct. 20, 2002: Bush announces that the United States is formally withdrawing from the Carter-brokered 1994 agreement.

The United States. halts oil supplies to North Korea and urges other countries to cut off all economic relations with Pyongyang.

Dec., 2002: North Korea expels the international weapons inspectors, restarts the nuclear reactor at Yongbyon, and unlocks the container holding the fuel rods.

Jan. 10, 2003: North Korea withdraws from the Non-Proliferation Treaty — noting, however, that there would be a change of position if the U.S. resumed its obligations under the Agreed Framework and signed a non-aggression pledge.

March, 2003: President Bush orders several B-1 and B-52 bombers to the U.S. Air Force base in Guam — within range of North Korea.

April, 2003: North Korea's deputy foreign minister announces that his country now has "deterrent" nuclear weapons.

May, 2003: Bush orders the Guam-based aircraft back to their home bases.
October, 2003: The North Koreans announce they have reprocessed all 8,000 of their fuel rods and solved the technical problems of converting the plutonium into nuclear bombs.
 

Freddie53

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ManiacalMadMan said:
It needs to be repeated and directly on this point...I have no problem with people disagreeing. Keep in mind LEX, I have not sunk to the level which many have. That level involves calling persons of a more conservative frame of mind anything from idiot to fuckwit to fucking asshole, shortly...within this post...I will do so,since you seem to think that is okay.

You seem to think that the opinion disagreement factor is to be a one sided deal. I recall a posing post of yours not too long ago where you told everyone in essence to put me on the ignore list. Where was your open minded thinking then? I sent you an I.M. indicating my feelings on it and within seconds you answered in your jerky method. Too few a number of seconds to have actually read what I had written, and your curt response made clear that you had NOT read the message I had sent to you and yet you prance around as KING MODERATOR. You are scum Lex. The lowest of the low. I have watched your seedy behavior here (and in your alleged personal life) and watched as neanderthal minded twits fawn over your UGLY body. Yes, it is UGLY. Why is it UGLY? Because quite simply it is attached to you.

You Lex are a waste. Even dog shit will not attach to the bottom of your shoes.
So you want to have the holier than thou behavior Lex, then by all means go for it. Go ahead ban my ass from here because let me tell you it would not be any great shakes to not have the opportunity to put cretins such as you in your place on a regular basis. Interesting thing about cretins such as you, you are not bright enough to understand ANYTHING which is being said. It is sad that you were somehow made a moderator since you are anything BUT a moderator. You are a one sided one dimensional cartoon cutting. Hell, you aren't even that realistic.

Keep in mind Lex, once more I say this since you undoubtedly missed it the first few times: I have no difficulty with people disagreeing with me. If you actually bothered to read my earlier post I indicated that Freddie53, Mindseye, DCDeep and even you had disagreed with my comments and that I was okay with that. As always, your attitude of doing everything half-assed and posing (yes, Lex, you are a poser if nothing else) as a mythical god-type creature kept you from reading what I had said because once more you had to portray yourself as Saint of The Cheaters and Saint of The Netherworld as well as Saint of The Cretins. I know it is always good to have a nice opinion of ones self but you take it to such a twisted place it is well beyond disgusting.

Enjoy your life Lex and enjoy the limited realm which it currently encompasses and most likely...and this is the sad part...will stay within.
Well I'lll be damned. Zora has been dethroned in the number of no-no words per sentence. But she is still the Queen editorialist here.

Guess it is a tie. Zora wins for being the best editorialist and you my friend are king of the no no words. Congradulations. I'm sure Lex shit in his pants laughing when he read your above post. It was too priceless as in not having any price not to print in its entirety. There are diamonds and then there are the glass fake diamonds.

Zora is still a diamond. You look good in glass though. Folks, Just don't get too close, the stench will overwhelm you.

Zora is very sharped tongued. Any one here who doesn't know that just hasn't read her posts. However, she always backs up what she says with evidence. Evidence that some may dispute, but evidence

Yep, Lex said it. You reported our dear Zora to the moderating team. Guess you wanted us to warn or ban her.

We could I suppose, but if we did. You would have to get in the boat with her and sail across the wide blue sea with just the two of you. What a romance. Remember when you try to outshit Zora, the shit goes in your pants, not hers. Consider that as you both journey on the boat you have picked out for Zora.

Uh oh, I used the word shit in this post. Damn, there will be three in the boat now. Move over, make room, I'm getting in.
 

tripod

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Did that timeline come out of Mike Wells' brain? He had to copy that, there's no way a normal human could remember that much... our ambassadors don't even know that much.

Interesting "by the book" timeline, although I am still scratching my head as to how it was the Democrat's fault.
 

rob_just_rob

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tripod said:
Did that timeline come out of Mike Wells' brain? He had to copy that, there's no way a normal human could remember that much... our ambassadors don't even know that much.

Interesting "by the book" timeline, although I am still scratching my head as to how it was the Democrat's fault.

Everything's the Democrats' fault, due to their shocking failure to foretell the future and act accordingly.
 

tripod

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rob_just_rob said:
Everything's the Democrats' fault, due to their shocking failure to foretell the future and act accordingly.

That elicited a hearty laugh and chortle, thanx Rob just Rob!
:chairfall:
 

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nineplus said:
I'm sorry Mindseye, I might agree in some cases, but history has proven that talks/treaties/diplomatic solutions with nutbag tyranical dictators aren't real solutions. I'm sure any Poles alive 2 September, 1939 would concur.

  1. You first say that we have "no solutions"; so I show you a couple of examples, and now you're back-pedalling to say they're not "real" solutions.
  2. Even though you don't think talks with nutbag tyrannical dictators are productive, Kim Jong-Il expressed a willingness to talk with George W. Bush anyway.
  3. Talks were all that the Republicans have offered here -- the difference is that the Bush administration wanted to do all the talking through intermediaries instead of directly with North Korea.
  4. Your example of Poland ca. 1939 notwithstanding, I still believe that direct diplomacy is the correct first step in resolving international situations; since direct diplomacy was never even tried, discussion of any other potential solutions is moot.
 

rob_just_rob

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If I may interject: This isn't 1938, Dear Leader isn't Der Fuehrer, and Korea/Iraq/Iran certainly aren't/weren't the military threat to the western nations that Nazi Germany was in 1938.

The argument that the North Korean Wehrmacht is suddenly going to sweep across Eurasia and over the Pacific Ocean is a wee bit ridiculous.
 

madame_zora

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Ooh, how sexy- I got reported!

I admit it, I cast the first stones with my initial post. I meant to do it, I had a point to make, and I made it exactly as I intended, I won't apologise for that.

Although I didn't spell it out completely (because I trust the intellect of our members to pick up on obvious things), my point was that assuaging the delicate sensibilities of "our fellow Americans" is at the root of our current difficulties. I believe that, and I feel that history will bear this point out.

I've been a loudmouth, sometimes rude, sometimes vulgar, but always direct poster on there forums since I joined here in 2003, I won't be becomming something other than who I am because of some n00b who doesn't understand "the rules" or can't hold up his end of the conversation. As a previous moderator, I am well aware of how many times the ones who provoke fights are the first to go running for the teacher as soon as they are "offended". I don't give a fuck WHO I offend, and that's that. If you're here not to be offended, then you are not likely to be very happy.

I also vehemently support the rights of those who disagree with me to post, in the words of their choosing. Everyone knows this, especially the mods! If it just so happens that using vulgarity is not your style, then that's fine. Respond how YOU feel comfortable, but you will never limit MY right to use the words I choose. Fuckalottathat.

The pussification of America is what I'm talking about here, and America needs to grow the fuck up. We are adults, and simple black-and-white, us-and-them thinking is just not good enough. It works in grade school, but by the time you get to college, you are asked to do things like write thesis, where there is no clear "right or wrong", just an exploration of the facts, and the conclusions you draw by USING YOUR BRAIN. This is what is missing here, there is a growing movement, being perpetrated by the neocons to keep us stupid, keep our thinking binary. Life isn't like that, and solutions to complicated problems are FUCKING COMPLICATED. There isn't a clear "right or wrong", we're going to have to EXPERIMENT, and continue to learn from our actions, both good and bad. Then we are going to have to continually take stock of what results occur from these actions, and which ones worked and which did not. It will be a process of fine tuning and honing, but it MUST begin with conversations, it has to.

I liked Bill Clinton, but that is a SEPARATE ISSUE from how I felt about his policies. He played the saxophone on tv, and he wasn't bad. He talked in a manner I could relate to, so I felt a sense of connection there. HOWEVER, despite these warm fuzzies, I DEFINITELY WOULD NOT support him if he had suggested doing things or in fact DID things I found politically repugnant. I was crestfallen when he lied about the bj, and I was incensed when he asked to define the definition of "is". "Crestfallen" and "incensed" over a PERSONAL MORAL ISSUE is a very different thing from gutteral fury over illegal war, illegal imprisonment (which includes rape, torture and waterboarding), illegal police violence, illegal granting of no-bid contracts to companies in which the people doing the awarding have a financial interest, illegal coverups of both political, legal and moral issues, and illegal tampering of our elections! Tell me, what was ILLEGAL about Clinton's blowjob? I'll tell you what- nothing! So a Jew gave him a blowjob on Easter- I really don't give a fuck, neither did most of America. I'm an adult, I EXPECT a man to lie about cheating on his wife- I also EXPECT them to do it! Newsflash folks, WELL OVER 50% OF ALL MEN DO, AND PROBABLY ALL WOMEN TOO! These hysterics come from people who are so self righteous that they feel justified for condemning a man FOR WHAT THEY DO THEMSELVES! Remember Newt Gingrich? I didn't think so. Fuck you.

I'm going to be using the FUCK word a lot. If it makes you want to pee your pants, put me on ignore.
 

madame_zora

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rob_just_rob said:
If I may interject: This isn't 1938, Dear Leader isn't Der Fuehrer, and Korea/Iraq/Iran certainly aren't/weren't the military threat to the western nations that Nazi Germany was in 1938.

The argument that the North Korean Wehrmacht is suddenly going to sweep across Eurasia and over the Pacific Ocean is a wee bit ridiculous.

Hmm, maybe and maybe not. What was going on in 1935? That's an actual question, I really don't know.

My view is that North Korea probably doesn't have the ability as of yet to do any real damage, but we've been guilty of underestimating our opponents before, right? I'd rather err on the side of caution and at least TALK to the fuckers and see what they have to say, then we'll know a little bit more about where we stand. If they're willing to go to these lengths to get our attention, then perhaps we should PAY attention now while the situation *might* still be manageable.

I started this thread with "What will bush do" not because I think he HAS to or even ought to, but because HE has already said he WILL. Let's see if it was all just bullshit- anymore, anything or even nothing would surprise me. All I know for sure is that whatever bush does or doesn't do is somehow the democrats' fault.
 

madame_zora

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big dirigible said:
She sure does. The idea she's clearly expressing is, "I've forgotten my meds and I can't get up!"

The same idea she usually expresses. Interesting, perhaps, in a diagnostic sort of way.

You sir, are the biggest hypocrite of all! You racked up plenty of posts whining that you couldn't put me on ignore because I was a mod- what's your excuse now?

Clearly, you are drawn to me like stink on shit, perhaps we should just get married and have 2.5 kids and live in the country.:biggrin1: It is an EASILY provable FACT that I am the one person on this board that you respond to most.

Hahahahaha, fuck you too. I took down my pics, so you can't be jacking off to my tits. If you really think my posts are worthless, why DON'T you have me on ignore? I suspect it's because you find them amusing, which is how I feel about yours.
 

tripod

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madame_zora said:
Clearly, you are drawn to me like stink on shit, perhaps we should just get married and have 2.5 kids and live in the country.:biggrin1: It is an EASILY provable FACT that I am the one person on this board that you respond to most.

What red-blooded man wouldn't want a sexy woman full of passion and fire. Smart outspoken women are a HUGE turn-on. Me thinks someone else besides me has a crush on the Madame...
 

ClaireTalon

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Is the Transparency thread still around? Can Lex or mindseye unlock Spladle's complaining thread? Can those longing for a mudfight with the moderator and ToS supporters go there and bash each others heads in? Maybe I'll participate, or I'll sell popcorn to the viewers ;-)

First, to answer that question to BuddyBoy, I know there are small tactical devices that were around with both, US and USSR, in the range of 5 to 10 kT TNT. They would have been delivered as artillery grenades, or warheads of unguided artillery missiles. 550 tons? I've never heard of a device as small as that, and a faked test with a large amount of conventional explosive is a probable scenario, but unless I can tell for sure, I'll keep my smart mouth covered.

What made me scratch my head was that the screaming about Mme Zora's navy-style language (;-)). It has even overtoned that I openly supported a war, even at the costs of a number of nuclear strikes.

I think rejecting bilateral talks wasn't a bad decision. I absolutely don't trust anything seemingly well-meant, good-natured coming from NK's administration. Bilateral talks would have been a great way of binding their most powerful military enemy diplomatically, and stalling for time, while finishing the manufacturing of their A-bomb behind their backs.

tripod said:
What red-blooded man wouldn't want a sexy woman full of passion and fire. Smart outspoken women are a HUGE turn-on. Me thinks someone else besides me has a crush on the Madame...

You got it! If she was a man, I'd want to fuck her all the time.