Solution for IRAQ?

[SteveHd]

Unlawful?

 

[SpeedoGuy]

Finally: "conservative press"? Where's the "liberal press"? As I have also said before, these terms are relative.

This one just made me laugh a bit.

Clearly you haven't been listening to enough right wing hate radio, rob. If you had, you'd know perfectly well that the print and broadcast media in the US are overwhelmingly infected with terribly skewed lefty bias. Only a very few, isolated, maverick newspapers and broadcast stations dare to buck the draconian liberal hegemony in the media. It dangerous work. And take note, these few heroic voices are constantly in danger of being drowned out by the shrill liberal cacophony.

Just tune any US station on your AM dial at mid-day and you'll be treated to hours and hours and hours of that awful liberal bias on syndicated talk shows.

 

[rob_just_rob]

This one just made me laugh a bit.

Clearly you haven't been listening to enough right wing hate radio, rob. If you had, you'd know perfectly well that the print and broadcast media in the US are overwhelmingly infected with terribly skewed lefty bias. Only a very few, isolated, maverick newspapers and broadcast stations dare to buck the draconian liberal hegemony in the media. It dangerous work. And take note, these few heroic voices are constantly in danger of being drowned out by the shrill liberal cacophony.

Just tune any US station on your AM dial at mid-day and you'll be treated to hours and hours and hours of that awful liberal bias on syndicated talk shows.

Yeah, because nearly all the networks and major newspapers are owned by large conglomerates (e.g. Newscorp, GE, Viacom). And we all know how notoriously liberal multibillion-dollar corporations are. :tongue: They're always trying to upset the status quo. Fucking commies.

 

[B_spiker067]

Tired thread. No solutions still because only two choices are proffered: stay or don't stay. With the usual agonizing over how long.

Here's a fun point. The last two Moslem terrorists plots (real or imagined) were foiled not by the FBI as they would have you believe but by loyal MOSLEM AMERICANS. Thank you guys. No thanks to the FBI for not giving that greater credit than themselves.

Moslem radicals need to know that a loyal Moslem American may turn them in and the rest of America should note the Moslems are loyal Americans too. Moderate Moslem Americans should know that it is okay to turn in the cultish Moslem radicals. This would give us common ground and safety more than anything else done to date.

 

[madame_zora]

How many fundamentalist preachers here in America have said things like Katrina was God's punishment for gays? How many KKK members still threaten (and kill) blacks today? How much press do the "good guys" get? None? Does that mean all Christians want everyone else to die? Of course not!

Screaming fanatics exist in all religions, all governments. I know some Iraqi people, and they are pretty effin' far from radical extremists. According to them, a hefty percentage of their population, especially in cities, are not religious at all or only nominally so. I have no doubt whatsoever that there are extremist factions who want to see Americans dead, between our cultural differences and the fact that we've invaded their country on trumped-up charges, no doubt that number is growing. But the fact remains, WE are the occupyers, WE are the ones who invaded THEM.

We owe them a timely withdrawal, and an apology that includes rebuiling what we've destroyed. I wonder how many would still want to kill us, if we just did what our kindergarten teacher taught us to do when we made a mistake and broke something that didn't belong to us? Apologise, fix it, and begin trade with them as neighbors. Most of us as citizens of America really have no clue how inequitable our trade policies really are. "Those people" hate us for far better reasons than our personal excesses, and we've justly earned that hatred.

 

[madame_zora]

Tired thread. No solutions still because only two choices are proffered: stay or don't stay. With the usual agonizing over how long.

While I agree that WE probably won't come up with "the" solution, I think it's important that we, as American citizens, voice our opinions so when voting time comes, perhaps we've had an opportunity to see what other people are thinking, and why. That's why I participate in these threads, and why I watch the religious shows on Sunday morning.:tongue:

Here's a fun point. The last two Moslem terrorists plots (real or imagined) were foiled not by the FBI as they would have you believe but by loyal MOSLEM AMERICANS. Thank you guys. No thanks to the FBI for not giving that greater credit than themselves.

Moslem radicals need to know that a loyal Moslem American may turn them in and the rest of America should note the Moslems are loyal Americans too. Moderate Moslem Americans should know that it is okay to turn in the cultish Moslem radicals. This would give us common ground and safety more than anything else done to date.

Probably the best point I've read here thus far. The family I know own a cigarette store I used to go to in Columbus. He is a merchant, and she is an education administrator. She is divorced, and her current husband took her away from a man who beat her and her children. Although they are my age, they have a three year old son who is absolutely adorable, because he had no children of his own, although he has legally adopted her four children and treats them as his own. Nice family.

They came here for the American dream, and to escape the prejudice they felt being a divorced couple in Iraq. I spent a good deal of time talking to her about their lives there as compared to here- it's just one family's experience, but I figure they know more about their country than I do. Their eldest son is in OUR army, fighting in Iraq, and his mother speaks of him as if he were a god. She is so proud that her son is an AMERICAN soldier, doing what the AMERICAN president says is the right thing. Do you think they're getting what they deserve from our government? They trust our government to do the right thing, I feel their loyalty has been shit on.

Many, many people who have seen the flaws of their own nations have come here for what they believe is a more just system of government. While they certainly get that, this particular family was surprised to find that although they were considered rich in their country doing what they do, here they are lower middle class. Her description of a pre-invasion Iraq has given me much food for thought. These are very, very loyal Americans. They have the freedom here to love as they see fit, and to raise their children where they will have opportunity far exceeding what they had there, especially now- but they will have to work a lot harder than they had originally anticipated to overcome prejudice here. I think that's a shame.

If we can't really make it better there, then what are we doing?

 

[B_HappyHammer1977]

There's no point arguing the toss over whether we should have been there to start with, however now that we are we have a responsibility to leave the country in as good a state as we possibly can. Let's face it, it's been well and truly fucked up, so we've got to help them start a new, that won't happen overnight. Set a date...

 

[D_Tintagel_Demondong]

Saddam was hardly a threat to the wealthy and powerful Saudis. Yet the events of 911 were embarassing to Saudi Arabia as wealthy Saudis had funded and supported the Taliban and the Al Queda organizations. Osama Bin Laden was one of those wealthy Saudi citizens who also masterminded 911. The Saudi royal family was swift to condemn the terrorist attacks of 11 September 2001. Saudi Arabia subsequently took action to freeze terrorist funds and has continued to take steps to support these actions. There were numerous terrorist attacks in Saudi Arabia between 2002 and 2004 which resulted in the deaths of numerous Saudi and foreign nationals. The government of Saudi Arabia held a Counter-Terrorism Conference in February 2005 in order to exchange information and expertise more widely in the international community.

Saddam Hussein was not connected with 911. The lure of controlling the oil of Iraq was cleary stated by G.W.Bush as one of the benefits that would be gained form his unlawful invasion of Iraq. But those military forces were , and still are, desperately needed in Afghanistan to battle the Taliban and Al Queda.

Finally some insight. Westerners seem to clump Middle Easterners, and even Arabs, into one big pile. We should know by now that the main reason that the Middle East has been unstable for so long is that it contains some vastly different cultures and idiologies. They aren't all Arabic and they aren't all Muslim.

I bet most Westerners would say that Iran is primarily Arab (only 2% of Iranians are Arabic) and that the conflict between Iraqis is not racial (Kurdish genocide is centuries-old there). I bet that many, maybe even most, Westerners believe that Saddan Hussein was involved in 9/11 attacks. How did we get so incredibly ignorant about the Mid East?

 

[B_spiker067]

Probably the best point I've read here thus far. The family I know own a cigarette store I used to go to in Columbus. He is a merchant, and she is an education administrator. She is divorced, and her current husband took her away from a man who beat her and her children. Although they are my age, they have a three year old son who is absolutely adorable, because he had no children of his own, although he has legally adopted her four children and treats them as his own. Nice family.

They came here for the American dream, and to escape the prejudice they felt being a divorced couple in Iraq. I spent a good deal of time talking to her about their lives there as compared to here- it's just one family's experience, but I figure they know more about their country than I do. Their eldest son is in OUR army, fighting in Iraq, and his mother speaks of him as if he were a god. She is so proud that her son is an AMERICAN soldier, doing what the AMERICAN president says is the right thing. Do you think they're getting what they deserve from our government? They trust our government to do the right thing, I feel their loyalty has been shit on.

Many, many people who have seen the flaws of their own nations have come here for what they believe is a more just system of government. While they certainly get that, this particular family was surprised to find that although they were considered rich in their country doing what they do, here they are lower middle class. Her description of a pre-invasion Iraq has given me much food for thought. These are very, very loyal Americans. They have the freedom here to love as they see fit, and to raise their children where they will have opportunity far exceeding what they had there, especially now- but they will have to work a lot harder than they had originally anticipated to overcome prejudice here. I think that's a shame.

If we can't really make it better there, then what are we doing?

Good anecdotal sharing.:smile:

I'm surprised you haven't bashed me for being all over the place. Did you figure me out or did you long ago just thrown your hands up in the air and give up?