Some Christians Not Homophobic

Freddie53

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COLJohn said:
For Freddie I want to state my position on this issue: I am a Christian, and I deplore trhe attitudes of so-called Christians that are homophobic or exclusionary in any way. That behavior runs counter to everything that Christianity espouses. I no longer worship in a church, and I probably never will again unless I find one populated with members like JA and Freddie -- and I doubt that will ever happen. It becomes increasingly difficult to maintain one's beliefs in the face of the actions of the Cathlic church and pedophile priests and of the politicizing from the pulpit. I would not have even aired my spiritual beliefs were it not for Freddie, who, to me, embodies what Christianity, or any religion for that matter, is supposed to represent. Surrounded by fundamentalists who are mean-spirited, judgmental, homophobic, exclusionary, and limited in their ability to analyze social issues that they blithely condemn or approve, I find it easy to understand why so many people reject religions altogether. I would much rather have dialogue with many of the atheists on this board for whom I have great respect than the pseudo-Christians I have to deal with on a daily basis. Hats off to you, Freddie!

Thanks John,

And Stronzo and a host of others speaking up. It is time that we stop letting homophobic people take over our religions, houses of worship, Scouts, and every other organization.

For the record, the three denominations that are on record as not considering homosexuality a reason not to serve in ANY capacity in the church are the Episcopal Church, The Presbyterian Church USA and the United Church of Christ.

The United Methodist Church accepts all gays in all positions of the church including paid positions except for the ordained ministry which is reserved for celibate singles or those marriaged.

If gay marriage is ever legal all across the United States I'm sure the United Methodist Chruch will lift the ban on gays who are sexually active from being ordained. For Methodists it is a matter of being married. Ministers in an active straigt relationship must also be married to be ordained as well.

But the United Methodist Church is not homophobic. We have lost homophobic members in the last few decades. Our gain. Their loss.

I hope more people will speak up and let the all on the LPSG know that there are many Christians who are practicing gays and have no religious problem with it and there are many Christians who deplore homophobic in any shape, form or fashion. Period.

As Jesus said, "If you have done it into the least of these my brethern you have done it unto me." I'm not worried about the gays getting into heaven. It is the fake "fundie" Christians who if there is indeed a literal hell are heading there in a hand basket.

*For the record, hell is a symbolic of God's purging the universe of evil and imperfection. I don't believe in an enternal damnation for bad people. At worst, the really bad people just cease to exist. At best, they are given another chance. The only mention of that is that Jesus went into hell to preach to the one there according to the gospels. That must be a way to telling us that there is a second chance down the road for everyone.*
 

DC_DEEP

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Freddie53 said:
I'm not worried about the gays getting into heaven. It is the fake "fundie" Christians who if there is indeed a literal hell are heading there in a hand basket.
Ah, Freddie, there you have the crux of the conundrum. I haven't yet figured out why the fundies are so interested in my soul. If they want to present me the opportunity to "be saved", that's fine. If I reject it, what is their further interest?

For that matter, the faux-faithful such as Phred Felps and his inbred crew, seem to know WAAAAY too much (non-factual, incorrect) information for someone who claims it is so repugnant. If it is such a problem for them, why do they dwell upon it so diligently?

Thanks for your more moderate, more christ-like view, Freddie.
 

bossfan2

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Love the sinner, hate the sin is not a core Christian value. Christians are taught to embrace all men as loved ones and not to discriminate. Homophobia goes against the teachings of Christ as was witnessed by his relationship with Mary Magdelene. She was perceived as a prostitute, which is just as much a sin as homosexuality in the eyes of the Christians, yet he embraced her as well.

The reason the Church initially took the stance it did was strictly financial. Homosexuality was open and accepted in ancient Rome so much like priests not being able to marry, the current stance was strictly financial.
 

DaveyR

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Freddie - Many of your posts, not just in this thread, serve as an example to others. It's just a pity that more people could not follow your example.

You asked in the OP that the thread serve for folks to declare their Christianity sitting hand in hand with their acceptance of homosexuality (excuse the paraphrase). It's a shame but not many folks have actually done that so far in this thread.

I will say it again - It's a shame that more Christians were not like you.

Be proud to be different.:smile:
 

fortiesfun

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For what it is worth, I am a practicing Christian and a member of one of the mainline churches that publicly denounces homophobia instead of homosexuality. (And my current priest is openly gay.) I concur with Freddie that fundamentalism, far from expressing a concept Jesus taught, actually contradicts His message. (Not just about sexuality, by the way, but on almost all social issues.)
 

Freddie53

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fortiesfun said:
For what it is worth, I am a practicing Christian and a member of one of the mainline churches that publicly denounces homophobia instead of homosexuality. (And my current priest is openly gay.) I concur with Freddie that fundamentalism, far from expressing a concept Jesus taught, actually contradicts His message. (Not just about sexuality, by the way, but on almost all social issues.)
And I might add reliigous issues as well. The fundie's concpept of God is a spiteful God looking to send people to hell. Mainline Christians believe in a redemptive God who wants EVERY human who has ever lived or will ever live have an peaceful and perfect afterlife. Quite a difference.

For those who want to know which denomination has openly gay priests and want to get back into a church that accepts gays with open arms, it is the Episcopal Church. The four others that accept gays very openly are the United Church of Christ, Presbyterian Church USA Luthern Church, (not Missouri Synod) and the Unirted Methodist Church.

I suspect the American Baptist Churches, (not the Southern Baptist Convention, these two are poles apart) also is accepting, but I don't know for sure.

For those looking for a friendly church,there is one of these within driving distance of most people.

GAY AND MAINLINE CHRISTIANS SPEAK UP! LET'S NOT LET THE FUNDIES HIJACK OUR RELIIGON! THEY DON'T HAVE SPECIAL "DIBS" ON IT.
AND THOSE WHO JUST FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS, BUT DON'T SEE HIM AS DIVINE ARE CHRISTIANS AS WELL. (CHRIST-LIKE)
 

DC_DEEP

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We should all remember that christians are no different from any other group - the loudest, most visible, most strident ones are not the majority, but they are the ones we notice and remember. The crusading homophobes in the church are no more representative of all christians, than are the caricatures you see in a gay pride parade representative of all gays.
 

Spoogesicle

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Gandhi noticed the wide gulf between Christ's teachings of brotherhood and compassion and the practice of 'Christianity' by so many of his so-called followers:
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
He hit the nail on the head. So many who proclaim Christianity have no respect for Jesus Christ and h\His teachings: they respect only the name that they hang onto their own convoluted beliefs. The real Christ has no meaning to them, and they wouldn't recognize Him if they met Him face to face and heard His message from His own lips. They would condemn his views as being un-Christian. Fundies have constructed a mythical Jesus in the image they want rather than accept the Jesus that was.

That said, I am gay and a practicing Christian. There is no conflict in my life between these two identities.
 

b.c.

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DC_DEEP said:
We should all remember that christians are no different from any other group - the loudest, most visible, most strident ones are not the majority, but they are the ones we notice and remember. The crusading homophobes in the church are no more representative of all christians, than are the caricatures you see in a gay pride parade representative of all gays.

Well said dude. Though I understand the purpose of Freddie's post (that of misrepresentation of the majority by a vocal few), there are many who quietly go about doing the "right thing" and relating to people as individuals, based on who they are rather than what they are, and we do it on a daily basis without getting overly excited about it all or feeling we necessarily have to proclaim it to the world.

(No brownie points for me I guess :cool: )
 

agnslz

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Well, I'm Catholic and gay! I can name at least forty other Catholics, one Episcopalian, three Presbyterians and one member of the A.M.E. Church who are not homophobic and actually accept and embrace gays! Most of those Catholics are members of my family and one is the deacon at my church (he is a straight, married man). The priest of our church also is quite liberal and respecting of gays but he takes (and has preached) the view of "hate the sin, not the sinner" and has advised me to not physically act on my sexuality. The ones who are not Catholic are mostly my friends (my straight friends).

Over the years, I have sometimes considered joining a different church (the Unitarian or the Metropolitan Community Churches), but I can not just give up the things that I wholeheartedly believe and have faith in! Those times that I have considered leaving were mostly when I've heard on EWTN (the Catholic television network) things that were very hateful and homophobic! One of the most reprehensible and vile people on the planet is Bill Donohoe of the "Catholic League." I often see him on EWTN and he always espouses and advances the hateful view that the scandal of pedophile priests is a result of gays "taking over" Catholic seminaries. He is allowed to have his opinion (of course) but it is never counterbalanced on EWTN.:mad: I wish it were!

I saw a documentary on HBO about a man who was abused by a Catholic priest when he was a little boy. He is now married with children and is still a member of the church. I figure if he can get past his own awful experience and continue to have faith and to remain in the Catholic Church, I can get past the hatred espoused by some in the Church towards gays and remain a member as well.

In that documentary they also showed women who were victims of pedophilia by priests! Here in New Mexico, most of the Catholic priest sex scandals have involved priests abusing women and girls, not young boys! But, of course, it is not so easy to demonize and blame all heterosexuals and heterosexuality for those cases of Catholic priest impropriety. So, Bill Donohoe and others like him choose to only go after those who they hate and for whom it is much easier to lay blame!

Alas, it comforts me and it always helps to keep me as a member of the Catholic Church to know that not all Catholics are against gays and that many even openly and warmly embrace and welcome us as members of the Church!:smile:
 

Andresito

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I am catholic, and I have many friends that are gay and practice the religion.

On the other hand I must confess that I don't go to church and I'm not involved in any kind of catholics groups of action and stuff, I guess that knowlegde allowed me to make a special point of view about the spirituality.

Maybe it's just cultural differences between there and here, I have read a lot of statements made by religious groups in the US that really shock me (God Hate Fags, for example).
 

JustAsking

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Devout Christian here and as such I cannot find a way to be homophobic and still be faithful to Christ. Neither can I ignore that God considers all people, gay or straight as his "beloved" and sacrificed His son for them. Neither can I consider someone's gayness any more sinful than anything I do on any particular day. And since homosexuality is castigated and marginalized by the rest of society, anyone who reads the New Testament knows that in the midst of marginalized people, one will find Christ.

Threads like this are why I come back to this place.
 

DC_DEEP

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JustAsking said:
Devout Christian here and as such I cannot find a way to be homophobic and still be faithful to Christ.
Uh, JA, you are exceptionally intelligent. Your posts on this forum demonstrate that time and again. Perhaps that is why you cannot reconcile the New Testament with homophobia.
 

dolf250

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Devout Christian here and as such I cannot find a way to be homophobic and still be faithful to Christ. Neither can I ignore that God considers all people, gay or straight as his "beloved" and sacrificed His son for them. Neither can I consider someone's gayness any more sinful than anything I do on any particular day. And since homosexuality is castigated and marginalized by the rest of society, anyone who reads the New Testament knows that in the midst of marginalized people, one will find Christ.

I was considering how to best answer this thread. I was conflicted in that while my interpretation of the bible is that homosexuality is a sin it is no worse than taking the Lords name in vain (something I do on a regular basis when I smash my hand at work.) I was considering a long post to try to get across what I believe and why, but then I cam across J/A's post and he has once again given voice to my thoughts and done so in a far more eloquent (and shorter) way than I am able to.
 

clear

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Well,

Again I must say that this site continues to impress me with each and every passing day. I am so happy I came across it and became a member. I had no idea I would be coming across so many wonderful, respectful and intelligent individuals. I can’t Thank You ALL enough!

With that said, I guess the only other thing I want to add to this forum is something that was pretty much covered in one form before. And that is; most Christians today are not really aware of what it means to be like Christ. I mean, after all, if you believe in Christ and His resurrection (and that He was who He said He was), then you have to stop and ask yourself three very basic questions. Why He died in the first place, who He died for, and the even more overlooked fact of when He died?

If His sacrifice was so great that just by believing in and accepting Him you are saved for eternity, what in the world can one do after believing and knowing that fact, to become “unsaved” or condemned to hell? There isn’t anything! That is why it was called the “Good News” in the first place. Pretty much up until then, most all of human religious endeavors required some form of “works” or self righteousness or justification to reach there end goal, individual states of perfection or completion or holiness. However, the message and example of Christ changed all that. No longer was it based on what you did as an individual that saved you or condemned you (by way of works or penance or anything like that; least any man should boast), but because of what He did; by His single sacrifice- once and for ALL! And this was the great mystery. Why would an all knowing, all powerful, everywhere at once God, come down out of eternity to save a dieing, sinful fallen race?

The answer repeated throughout scripture is Love. A Love most unconditional. A Love that looks past all our faults, and sees our needs. This same Love He asks of us; those of us who call ourselves His followers. To Love our neighbors as we Love ourselves. To be a light in the world by our example, and not simply shine a light on the world with words of judgment and condemnation. I mean after all, he did die for ALL (i.e. everyone) of us over two thousand years ago (2000!). And if He really was the Son of God, He very well knew that this would include gay, bi, and trans-gender people (as well as murderers, rapist, and child molesters) the moment He decided to hang his head and die. And yet He still thought we ALL were worth it. And if ALL people of this world were worth it to Him, who are we as “Christians” to deny these same people a chance at a life of freedom and peace with their God, when He bought them that right in the first place and freely gave it back to them? To choose out of there own will whether they wanted His gift or not.

Anyway I can go on and on about this and even greater implications of Christ legacy. But I will leave that for a later time, and more importantly, for those who care…lol. Thanks for reading my two cents. Hope it did not cost you all too much of your time.

Respectfully,

Proud (Still New) LPSG Member


Ted D.


P.S. I am a follower of Christ and Gay.:rolleyes:

Ciao-
 

B_Stronzo

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I was considering how to best answer this thread. I was conflicted in that while my interpretation of the bible is that homosexuality is a sin it is no worse than taking the Lords name in vain

And my interpretation of things Biblical has always instructed me that the word "Bible" should be capitalized. Be that as it may, I'm no proponent of "Bible etiquette" as it were and to see you, dolf, as the intelligent and often thoughtfully articulate fellow you are actually write down and post 'while my interpretation of the bible [sic] is that homosexuality is a sin it is no worse than taking the Lords [sic] name in vain...' I am in utter shock.

I think Nordic looking fellows with a husky build are sub standard because my upbringing instructed me so..:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Not.

This gets to the very core of what (no matter how subliminally) "Chirstians" do to undermine the reality which is the homosexual orientation. If, dolf, you believe in that interpretation and being 'devout' as you call yourself how do you reconcile that interpretation with what many here (and decidedly this poster) will find a pedantic and antiquated belief based in age-old Judeo Christian rhetoric?

Freaking Christians..... here's this shit all over again.

No matter how you slice it "Freddie" they don't want us in their "club". So guess what? I dun wanna be in it either.

Ah "The Bible" the last legitimate foundational support system for organized detachment from the homosexuals in this world.:rolleyes:
 

B_Stronzo

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Neither can I consider someone's gayness any more sinful than anything I do on any particular day.

So we're "sinning" anyhow aren't we us homos?:rolleyes:

Here it is again.

JA? You know I think you're just bomb but really. You must know how that sounds.

Do you mean in a likewise fashion as if I were to say "I don't find someone's straightness any more sinful than anything I do on any particular day"?

Or are there degrees of sin to you guys and do you and select others think homosexuality is kind of "in there with swearing" since you're the more enlightened New Testament variety of Christians?

Okay let me see if I have this;

Murder: BAD BAD SIN
Rape: BAD SIN
Incest: BAD SIN
Adultery: SIN
Thievery: "Sin-ish"
Homosexuality: "not-so-bad really sin but sin nonetheless"?
 

Freddie53

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And my interpretation of things Biblical has always instructed me that the word "Bible" should be capitalized. Be that as it may, I'm no proponent of "Bible etiquette" as it were and to see you, dolf, as the intelligent and often thoughtfully articulate fellow you are actually write down and post 'while my interpretation of the bible [sic] is that homosexuality is a sin it is no worse than taking the Lords [sic] name in vain...' I am in utter shock.

I think Nordic looking fellows with a husky build are sub standard because my upbringing instructed me so..:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Not.

This gets to the very core of what (no matter how subliminally) "Chirstians" do to undermine the reality which is the homosexual orientation. If, dolf, you believe in that interpretation and being 'devout' as you call yourself how do you reconcile that interpretation with what many here (and decidedly this poster) will find a pedantic and antiquated belief based in age-old Judeo Christian rhetoric?

Freaking Christians..... here's this shit all over again.

No matter how you slice it "Freddie" they don't want us in their "club". So guess what? I dun wanna be in it either.

Ah "The Bible" the last legitimate foundational support system for organized detachment from the homosexuals in this world.:rolleyes:
Ay Stronzo, forget THAT club, you and I aren't welcome there. And furthermmore, we never will be.

There is more than one club that recognizes that Jesus is the Christ. As I recall you are a practicing Epecapalian. Epescapalians are members of "Freddie's' Club as well as the Unitarian, Presbyterian and United Church of Christ and most United Methodists, though not all.

True, we are a small club compared to some of those giant clubs. Doesn't mean they are right.

Once again, let me state what sin is: Human separation from God, not individual acts. Clear made some excellent points in his post.

Christ is supposed to be about reconciling people to God, not separating them. If people would just read what JESUS said instead of digging around in the ancient texts for what people believed about God they would be much better off.

God wants integrity, honesty, love and reconciliation etc. If a gay couple has that in their relationship they are fine. On the other hand if a straight couple are cheating on each other, showing hate, spewing lies about each other: I ask you which relationship is in the image of God?

Stronzo, read another part of what Jesus said, "There will always be false prophets and people who preach things that are not of me." The religous authoriites killed Jesus. And no doubt about it, if Jesus lived today, some of the fundies would have Jesus strung up before sunset. Jesus would not be welcome in the pulpits of most of the fundie churches. I can just imagine the shit that would be stirrred up after the fundies heard what Jesus had to say.

We are not supposed to judge, that is Jesus' job. However, there are some that I have to wonder if they live a life that is Christlike.

For the record, an avowed gay man in a committed relationship is joining our church this Sunday. His partner is already a member. He is active and already on committees and isn't even a member yet. And the people who are the active leaders have openly embraced this gay couple as a legitimate couple worhsipping in our church. They come partly because they were invited, not once but many times by everyone. One of them even asked if it would be OK if he came. I assured him, it would be. And I eat out often with the couple as well as my pastor.

HOMOPHOBIA IS A SIN! HOMOPHOBIA IS A SIN! HOMOPHOBIA IS A SIN!

Jesus likely will forgive it just as other sins are forgiven. Doesn't change the fact that homophobia is a sin. Hate is always a sin. Hate separates people from God. Love connects people to God.
 

B_Stronzo

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I am entirely in love with you Fred.

Keep preaching brother... you're the only one I'm listening to with any real intent. And you're right I am a practicing Episcopalian. So far they haven't called me "sinner" so I haven't torn up my membership. :rolleyes: :wink: