some say gay=unnatural

Discussion in 'Relationships, Discrimination, and Jealousy' started by dolfette, Jun 25, 2009.

  1. dolfette

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    but i've been pondering this...

    lots of social animals live in groups where some members give up the chance to breed and instead help raise the offspring of their parents/siblings/cousins.
    wolves, bees, etc.
    the offspring have more 'parents' so theyhave a better chance of survival. the non-breeders increase the chance of related genes being passed on.

    homosexuality is seen in other animals.

    so perhaps homosexuality was nature's way of providing a group with non-breeding adults...which would mean homosexuality is completely natural.

    does that make any sense or am i talking utter shite?
     
  2. Joll

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    Lol Kotch - lovely post, as usual. ;)

    I think it's only unnatural to the extent that you can't breed by it. But it comes entirely naturally to some people - and to try and work against that would be extremely difficult and might be anxiety/depression causing, because you're always working against what your body/mind is inclined towards.

    It's kinda like asking priests to be celibate and quench all their natural desires their whole life - seems a bit unfair.
     
    #2 Joll, Jun 25, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 25, 2009
  3. B_henry miller

    B_henry miller New Member

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    People who see homosexuality as unnatural are usually religious people.
     
  4. Rugbypup

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    There are many postulous theories as to why homosexuality occurs in nature.

    The one I liked best was a theory that proposed that early man lived in societies dominated by alpha males. Standard alpha male laws apply, breeding rights, head of the pack, the usual. It thought that homosexuality developed as a manner of social harmony among males. If lower ranking men offered the alpha male the same social 'perks' as females, then they would not be seen as a breeding or potential threat to the alpha. Essentially, exchanging sexual submissiveness for social inclusion, the protection of the pack, if you will.

    I'll have a look for the article and post if I can find it. It went on to say that the residual evidence of this was demonstrated in the fact that nearly all gay men (please note the nearly all part) feel a strong attraction to strong alpha male type straight men.

    So basically, offering your arse up to the biggest, muscle bound, knucle dragger meant that said knucle dragger would then keep your arse safe when the saber tooth tigers attacked, lol.

    Kinda interesting if you have a look at ancient Greek military structuring.
     
  5. dolfette

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    ooo, that's a good one too!
    and it does fit in with a few societies.

    ...but it would leave the big, alpha, macho gays as unnatural. they're s'posed to be bi.

    theorising is fun!
     
  6. D_Brecock Evileye

    D_Brecock Evileye New Member

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    The industrial revelution was unnatural. No one minds that. Getting a shot for small pox, scarlet fever, and the like is unnatural as well. So is any form of surgery, hair dye, and wearing clothes. I like these things.
     
  7. ghostycrow

    ghostycrow New Member

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    I think it's nature's way of reducing overpopulation.
     
  8. Tremaine

    Tremaine Active Member

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    The notion that Homosexuality was / is unnatural comes from an interpretaion of the Bible from the work of Thomas Aquinas in his work to incorporate the 'newly' discovered works of Greco-Arabic Science - particularly the works of Plato and his notion of the forms. He noted that various things were in the nature of the world. Such as reproduction. From this it was posited that for anything to be contrary to 'the nature of the species' was by definition "un-natural". But this is to completely miss the point of the forms or ideal. Whilst it is in the nature of mankind and indeed all beasts, to create progeny, it is not in the nature of all beasts to do this. As has been noted above bees, ants, and many social animals fore go their potential for the rest of the group. It is also noted that a great many beasts have been recorded engaging in same sex coupling. There has recently be in the news account of this behaviour in penguins in a German Zoo. I ahave also seen different species of dragon fly engaging in same sex coupling. It is very common. Given that we have a very high proportion of our genetic code in common with other animals why oh why should we expect humans to be so different in their behaviours. So whilst it is not in the nature of the species to all engage in same sex coupling it is in the nature of some to so engage.

    The word that was used in the Bible in Ancient Greek is 'natura' and not 'Nature' and it is used also with regard to growing plants in-door, shaving, a good many other activities that many of us do on a routine basis.

    So if anyone trys to tell you that because someone is gay and the accuser has shaved or grows plants idoors mention that they are also going things that are 'against nature'

    Her endeth the 1st lesson.
     
  9. B_1youngboy

    B_1youngboy New Member

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    You can't compare animals to humans.
     
  10. dolfette

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    i often compare you to an ass.
     
  11. Incocknito

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    If the definition of natural is:

    in accordance with nature; relating to or concerning nature;

    Then homosexuality goes against the natural order of things; which is to live, procreate and then die.

    As for gay sex in the animal kingdom, from what I have seen, males use it to relieve themselves of sexual frustration when there are no females around.

    So from what I have seen, it is a temporary 'bout' of homosexuality and those same males would breed with females given the chance. Homosexual acts therefore do occur in the animal kindom. But as for 100% homosexual orientation (in the animal kingdom)...I'm not so sure.

    Carrying on from what Rugbypup said, it could be that homosexuality in humans is a remnant from the early years when submissive males only had male outlets (inlets? :wink:) for their sexual needs.

    And that system probably existed for a long time and became ingrained to some degree in some human psyches, which would explain 100% homosexuality. I suppose the same way that you can breed a fighting instinct into a dog.

    That could be why it "feels natural" to some or most gay people.

    However, according to the dictionary, homosexuality is not natural.
     
  12. dolfette

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    ahhh...so bees are unnatural. and ants. and wolves too.

    what an interesting dictionary you read!

    because worker bees live and die without ever breeding.

    i'll let the scientists know you've redefined nature for them.
    this is ground breaking stuff!
     
  13. Incocknito

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    Read your own post then try and write a correct reply. You are half right. The other half of you is trying to be clever and failing miserably.
     
  14. B_Hamadim

    B_Hamadim New Member

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    I read alot about Judaism, Christianity and Islam, The 3 semetic religions see Homosexuality as a work of Devil.

    "1youngboy" is right, you can't compare animals to humans, Human has the mind, Knowledge of Good and Evil, Creating and Inventing, Creating a greater Science, Bulding the world.

    "Ghostycrow" is also right, Homosexuality is a natural way to reduce the overpopulation, When God created the man, he wanted him to increase the population of the world, to breed and have more children, to build the world, but the Man needed a helper, and so God created the Woman from the rib of the Man "It is not Good for the man to be alone, I will make a helper suitable for him" Genesis 1:30.

    So Homosexuality is against of idea of increasing the population of the world.


    I can see that Adam and Eve is mentioned in the Holy books of God, not Adam and Steve :p


    Please don't misunderstand me, I have nothing against the Gays, besides I have some gay friends, This Topic is only to exchange some points of views.
     
  15. Incocknito

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    Since some of you are a bit dense, here is further explanation.

    Any animal that does not breed and procreate is unnatural.

    All that means is that said animal has not passed on its genes.

    Any other meaning(s) you choose to give to the word "unnatural" are up to you.

    SOME animals have social structures and hierarchies that require or force them to forego procreating. (Ants and bees)

    I would like to see some reputable source of evidence for wolves that do not breed in order to 'look after' another wolf's offspring.

    What dolfette meant was:

    "ahhh...so some bees are unnatural. and some ants. and some/no wolves too."

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/unnatural
     
    #15 Incocknito, Jun 25, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2009
  16. stonefish150

    stonefish150 New Member

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    I just thought I'd say that quoting an allegory designed to be understood by the unenlightened humanity of 4000-2000 years ago probably isn't going to win many arguments about what is or isn't natural.

    Also, though I forget where, there is an example of 'Adam and Steve' at least once in the Bible, or so I have been told.

    There, I replied without using even a single swear word :)
     
  17. B_Hamadim

    B_Hamadim New Member

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    What a nice person :p
     
  18. Tremaine

    Tremaine Active Member

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    Many Christians don't know that:
    Jesus says nothing about same-sex behaviour.
    The Jewish prophets are silent about homosexuality.

    Only six or seven of the Bible's one million verses refer to same-sex behavior in any way -- and none of these verses refer to homosexual orientation as it's understood today.

    Perhaps the following should be read:
    1 Samual 18 and further on as well re David & Jonathan

    Also note that the Bible accepts sexual practices that we condemn and condemns sexual practices that we accept. Lots of them! Here are just a few examples:

    DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
    If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.

    DEUTERONOMY 22:22
    If a married person has sex with someone else's husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death.

    MARK 10:1-12
    Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.

    LEVITICUS 18:19
    The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman's period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.

    MARK 12:18-27
    If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.

    DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12
    If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy's genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.

    Also note the following:

    Exodus 21:7
    And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.

    Exodus 35:2
    Six day shall work be done, but not on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

    Leviticus 11:7
    And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven hooved, yet he cheweth not the cud: he is unclean to you, and of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch, they are unclean to you. … And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination

    So if you are going to tell us that Leviticus 18:22 is what we should follow, if indeed we should believe anything and or follow anything that is in any of the 'Scriptures', then it is also right that we should follow all of the other sections of these works! Or are we to only follow the ones that fit in with our own narrow pre-conceived beliefs and attitudes that have been handed down to us from a tiny and barbaric ancient community.
     
  19. rsny845

    rsny845 Member

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    If homosexuality is "unnatural", how can it continue to exist? Granted, bisexuality and the occasional "rise to the occasion" of a gay man may account for passing on homosexuality. Or that sexuality is not fixed, but changes for an individual over time or by presented occasion (man that guy is hot). Any blanket opinion on homosexuality is likely to be based upon social or cultural control, not upon the "nature" of being human.
     
  20. B_mitchymo

    B_mitchymo New Member

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    I just wish to point out that as i am not religious 'believer' that i cannot go along with the theory that humans or indeed any animal is hear for the purpose of reproducing...exactly what would be the point in that purpose...none...it is not a purpose it is simply the way to increase numbers...if a meteor strikes the world today then it would or maybe not anyway be beneficial to have large numbers so that we can continue all over again and yet still have no known purpose for existing.

    Also in response to the suggestion that we are not comparable to other animals...you're wrong...on account of the fact that you are suggesting we are special simply because we are at the top of the food chain and have the most complex brains....would you seperate dogs and dolphins and parrots from other animals because THEY have higher intelligence among the animal kingdom...no.
    And also to he who suggested that natural is only those animals that reproduce...this is also not true on account that you are seperating life as if it all came from elsewhere...every lifeform, human, animal, insect, plant, microbe etc came from the very first life...a little bacteria which still thrives in its rock-like state and most visible on the reefs of australia...this bacteria does not have sex...nor do many species, the fact that humans do does not mean we are abnormal if we dont do it...by that account we should really have sex-rooms in our schools and workplaces and high-streets where we would be encouraged not to waste our sperm and eggs.

    The whole adam and eve thing only works if you believe we evolved from them...i do not so that don't wash let alone the adam and steve thing.....and i have said this before in another thread....


    ....It would be ADAM AND ADAM...It represents gender not individuals...adam and steve would be a human male and a chimpanzee maybe!
     
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