Some scientists worry it’s too late to reverse climate change

D_Martin van Burden

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The point that somehow got lost in all of this back-and-forth is that, whether we know all the facts to global warming, there isn't a damn bit with exercising strong and conscious environmental decisions.

I may not have a meteorlogical background, but I took an environmental ethics class taught by a vegetarian professor. I could give up red meat, but I like chicken too much -- and even if I can't give up meat entirely, I can exercise thoughtful choices about the meat I do eat. I'm willing to pay a few bucks for "free-range" or "cruelty-free" meat, and I'll scout around for organic stock, AND I refuse to eat veal... and I try to stay away from McDonald's while I'm at it. I made these decisions because I was willing to look at a range of material on the subject, even with conflicting views. The fact is, you need a lot of information whether you agree with it all or not in order to make a more thoughtful choice.

Maybe every issue that deserves a little more thought and reflection on our behalves isn't always so heavily intertwined with a political agenda. As much as I want to knock Bush upside the head for making some dumb environmental moves, I'd like to think that I would care about these same issues even if a Democrat or a Green guy were shoving those platforms in my face.
 

SpeedoGuy

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Sorcerer said:
The earth is far older than we can understand or even have a frame of reference to understand. Our lifetimes or "100 years" or even 300 are nary a blip on the radar for our planet. I think our greenhouse gases have more to do with pollution and less to do with affecting our climate. Yes, yes, I know all about the ozone layer. To believe we've affected the climate in this short of a time is arrogant on our part. We aren't even a blip.

If I'm hearing you straight, what you're saying is humans aren't capable of affecting the atmosphere or climate? I disagree. Acid rain downwind of cities is not a natural feature. The urban heat island effect is not an invention of alarmists. Jet contrails are capable of affecting surface temperatures. Sulfates from industrial emissions can spur cloud growth and density, also affecting surface temperatures.

And if you are familiar with ozone depletion, you'd know research showed it was definitely caused by human activity, no question about it. Humans are pouring pollution into the atmosphere at an ever increasing rate. The long term consquences of this are not known.

I'm not trying to be patronizing or snarky here. I'm merely saying that blanket statements pooh-poohing climate change or atmospheric damage from human activity are just as irresponsible as those who cry wolf during every heat wave.
 

JamesPM

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Our planet is chaotic (on many levels !) and it only takes subtle changes for systems to flip from one state to another. By the time we have definitive-no-argument evidence of any serious climate change it will be too late to take action.

Are the changes we're noticing just natural cycles or the start of a human-induced change that could take us anywhere? It seems prudent to assume the latter.

I would rather be remembered as part of the generation that mistakenly thought climate change was real and tried to do something rather than part of the generation that fiddled whilst Rome burned.

On the other hand, we're probably already screwed. Eat, drink and be merry etc.

---
James
 

Shelby

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Bariton said:
Because 'we' can't prove the climate change has a human cause you should ignore all signs.
Put your head in the ground. Buy a Hummer. Fuck the world. May God bless Amerika.

Hummer? Bah.

cxt.png
 

madame_zora

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How could it not be a good idea to err on the side of caution here? I mean, all we're really talking about is conservation, and isn't that just common sense?

I'd hate to think it was some form of moralistic judgement, but aren't there usually negative consequences attatched to bad decision-making in life? If we're using natural resources at a rate faster than they replenish, isn't it just a good goddamned idea to look for other ways to power the things we use, ways that might be less taxing on our environmental system? The thing is, it's going to be hard to find a way to tax and profit from solar power, now isn't it?

This argument is and always will be governed by money. You can believe I'm reading with a healthy sense of skepticism and critical observance anything published as "science" under this administration. One would have to be willing to ignore a lot if they were to not consider bush and cheney's personal business investments when considering why they are encouraging scientists to produce the results that they are.
 

headbang8

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SpeedoGuy said:
If I'm hearing you straight, what you're saying is humans aren't capable of affecting the atmosphere or climate? I disagree... The urban heat island effect is not an invention of alarmists.

I'm not trying to be patronizing or snarky here. I'm merely saying that blanket statements pooh-poohing climate change or atmospheric damage from human activity are just as irresponsible as those who cry wolf during every heat wave.
And I lived in the world's foremost example: Tokyo.

In the 60 years since WWII, scientists estimate that Tokyo has grown 6 to 8 degrees celsius hotter than it should be. That's 11-15 degrees F.

The street I lived on formed part of a famous landscape series of Ukiyo-e prints, struck in the late 1800s. The prints all show deep snow. In the nearly five years I lived there, it snowed six times, and never settled.

And summers were unbearable. Tokyo used to be an outdoor city in summer; now the heat and humidity are parctically unlivable.

Why? Lots of chemical reasons, I suppose. But the authorities blame the Japanese habit of trimming trees to within an inch of their lives. Almost every public park contains only trees that have been high level bonsaied--plucked, pruned, contained and fussed over, so they don't grow naturally or shed too many messy, unsightly, undisciplined leaves. It5's now law that every new building in central Tokyo with a flat roof must contain a roof garden. I lived in apartment on top of an office building and the courtyard on the 14th floor was just such a place. I looked out at the carefully cultivated bamboo and wondered if these poor plants retained enough surface area to photosynthesize worth a damn.

OK, maybe that doesn't prove the world's climate is shot to hell. But if it can happen in one city in just 60 years, I don't think we ought to be taking chances.
 

B_big dirigible

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madame_zora said:
One would have to be willing to ignore a lot if they were to not consider bush and cheney's personal business investments when considering why they are encouraging scientists to produce the results that they are.

So we're supposed to vote for Al Gore? After all he's coming out with another book on global warming. But of course we know where his family money comes from. [SIZE=-1]

Obviously it's Bush and Cheney's fault that Gore's father invested so much money in Occidental Petroleum.
[/SIZE]
 

SpeedoGuy

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madame_zora

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big dirigible said:
So we're supposed to vote for Al Gore? After all he's coming out with another book on global warming. But of course we know where his family money comes from. [SIZE=-1]

Obviously it's Bush and Cheney's fault that Gore's father invested so much money in Occidental Petroleum.
[/SIZE]

There are two issues here- personal investements and a proven track record of voting in order to protect those industries. For some reason, I just don't see Al Gore editing scientific reports prior to their release if he didn't like the results. Being wealthy doesn't HAVE to make someone a bastard, that's still a choice.

Speedoguy, I wish that article was unique in some way, but you could easily find many such instances in the last few years.
 

Rikter8

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They need to make a law that says CXT drivers have to have a CDL, or a commercial only license.
For those of you that have not seen/driven the CXT....its basically a Semi that has a bed, and a quad cab. It's a bitch to park, Its a pain to maneuver.
Honestly, what average joe OR a superstar needs a CXT?

Yes...it was the largest "Truck" built. But come on... its usefullness is nill even for the superstar. International, Mission accomplished. Now what ya gonna do with it?

Its just like every other Ford truck out on the road. A Gas Guzzling Piece of shit that serves no other purpose other than "Woohoo look at me, I just paid $170K because I dont know what to do with all my money, and its depreciating EVERY DAY!"

Meanwhile, I'm in my GMC ready to blow its doors off at the Light.

and Mine's paid for.....
 

dcwrestlefan

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big dirigible said:
So we're supposed to vote for Al Gore? After all he's coming out with another book on global warming. But of course we know where his family money comes from. [SIZE=-1]

Obviously it's Bush and Cheney's fault that Gore's father invested so much money in Occidental Petroleum.
[/SIZE]

he did win the 2000 election by more than 500000 votes, even given the ones in florida that were tossed in the trash. so much for democracy.
 

D_Herin_Ghan

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dcwrestlefan said:
he did win the 2000 election by more than 500000 votes, even given the ones in florida that were tossed in the trash. so much for democracy.

Typical liberal trash. How did I know your argument would be clouded by politics? Keep it on subject.
 

D_Herin_Ghan

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Where have I stated my own political background in here? Where have I used it in my argument. His statewment, and his one about Al Gore before hand makes him seem to be a liberal. I'm just pointing it out Dr. Rock. I have never used any political justification in MY OWN argument.