Somebody please explain Fast and Furious to me

Discussion in 'Politics' started by B_Hickboy, Feb 17, 2012.

  1. B_Hickboy

    B_Hickboy New Member

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    That twinge in your intestines
  2. houtx48

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    Hell the US has so little to export now, as soon as the Repbs find out about this they'll send those jobs to China too. Or another scenario is Ollie North has run amok again.
     
  3. OhWiseOne

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    That would be me in the shower.:bad:
     
  4. D_Amadeus_Mofart

    D_Amadeus_Mofart Account Disabled

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    Seems like such a PR move, the DA and sentencing judge looking to make waves.
     
  5. 1kmb1

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    explain why giving weapons to violent criminals is good?

    umm... well, you see, sometimes, umm... pass
     
  6. trunksisba

    trunksisba New Member

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    When I saw this I thought you were talking about the movie and thought to myself "what's not to get?" lol I have no clue what you guys are talking about.
     
  7. 1kmb1

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    long story short, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, came up with the brilliant plan that they would just sit back and watch as known gun traffickers bought thousands of guns in the united states (illegally) and that would somehow lead to a big bust...

    and even though the guns kept showing up at crime scenes (both in the us and mexico) they just let that shit roll for years.

    theyre like the underpants gnomes of government agencies.

    phase one: give drug cartels big guns.

    phase two: ??????

    phase three: profit!
     
  8. lucky8

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  9. B_enzia35

    B_enzia35 New Member

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    #9 B_enzia35, Feb 17, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2012
  10. suprdave

    suprdave Member

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    Funny, i watched a show about the drug wars on tv last nite and those guns showed up on there. From my understanding, the guns are ours and were being sent to the border for the cartels to use against us, so that way they would show up at crime scenes here and that would help with the call for the banning of rapid fire high powered rifles. One of our agents were killed with those guns and supposedly this goes all the way to the top. One of our agents that was sent there with those rifles felt is was wrong and sat and watched the rifles and called for help when the cartels got ahold of them, he was told to leave, get out of the area and received no help, he is the one that revealed all of this info. There are so many inccidents like this that go on everyday its disgusting.
     
  11. upone

    upone New Member

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    It's one of those really stupid ideas that sounded great at 2:00 a.m.

    "Hey! Let's sell guns to the cartels and trace them!" Result: 3 dead, including one DEA agent.

    Remember this? "Hey, let's knock off Sadaam! We'll find lottsa weapons of mass destruction, and they'll greet us as liberators! With all that oil, it'll pay for itself!" Result: 200,000 dead, including 5,000 U.S. military, and $4 trillion wasted.

    A lot of really stupid ideas sound good at 2:00 a.m.
     
  12. suprdave

    suprdave Member

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    these guns werent sold, they did that a few years ago and tracked them, these weapons were left for the cartels to pickup and use in crimes in this country only to try to get a ban on assault weapons.
     
  13. dandelion

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  14. B_enzia35

    B_enzia35 New Member

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    One was voted for by Congress, and one was hidden from the people.
     
  15. SilverTrain

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    A Congress that had been blatantly lied to by the Executive Branch with regards to the "evidence" that provided the rationale for going to war.
     
  16. helgaleena

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  17. Phil Ayesho

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    Simplistic...

    in retrospect it SEEMS a bad idea because US provided guns were used in crimes and murders.

    But it is entirely false to suggest that, without these government supplied guns, that these crimes would NOT have occurred... the Drug cartels have no difficulty obtaining as many guns as they want.

    In point of fact, the exercise was valid. The Government was trying to figure out HOW guns move thru the underground... Since tens of thousands of guns move into the underground economy every day... putting a few TRACEABLE guns in the stream is an excellent way of figuring out who is moving them, where and when, to reveal the unknown patterns and associations that were previously invisible to law enforcement.

    It is not different than banding geese or Wolves so that you can figure out their migratory patterns.

    You know where they entered the underground, and you can spot them where they emerge... and in these cases, often track them in real time.

    You are not seeking to bust the guy holding the gun at any given moment... you want to know who HE gives it to and where... and then who He gives it to... thus an entire criminal network is revealed, and your efforts to interdict that network can be far more effective. You can identify choke points... important players from extras... and experiment with what techniques actually get the most effective results.

    Actually... despite the idiocy of the stupid media and public who don't understand how covert operations are carried out, this is precisely how we track and uncover the black market movement of plutonium.

    It is a sophisticated strategy for understanding the underworld and how best to undermine it.


    I am sure it seems counter productive at cursory glance, but that perspective is ignorant.
    It may seem cold... but that is how you wage a cold war. It is how you gather intelligence on HOW the enemy works.
     
  18. ripsrips

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    The networks only treated it as a side story...only fox really went after the details and cbs did some but only not to look like their shielding the president, the other networks just ignored it, even when holder testified before congress!....Another brilliant investigative story on this sad representation of a executive branch.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspi...ous-just-might-be-president-obamas-watergate/

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/feb/15/obamas-fast-and-furious-spin/

    If this were a Republican administration, this would be on the top of the news every single night until there were answers or until heads rolled...

    I can hear the excuses now...it really not a story!...the fed had nothing to do with it, it was a rogue agent!...or...Bush originally started it so it's his fault!

     
    #18 ripsrips, Feb 21, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2012
  19. B_enzia35

    B_enzia35 New Member

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  20. Phil Ayesho

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    Terrorism and the violence associated with drug trafficking are covert endeavors.

    Bush tried waging overt war against covert enemies, and all we got was 4,000 dead soldiers, 300,000 dead Iraqi's, and a trillion dollars poorer.

    In waging a covert war against a covert enemy, you use unconventional tactics. And your biggest asset is information you can gather that your enemy doesn't know you have gathered.
    It is not enough to be able to rack Bin Laden to where he is hiding... you also have to conceal that you know this from Bin Laden and his crew.

    Those who have a black and white reading of this have no clue as to how much their safety depends upon some very unsavory activity, done in secret, and that often results in lives lost.

    While this operation may have been poorly executed... it is because these CIA inspired techniques are new to these agencies.
    And blowing the lid off of them is the most counter-productive thing that can happen...because NOW not only are people dead... but the valuable information gathered at the cost of those lives is now useless and compromised.

    It is the problem of the undercover cop in general... he can't bust out his badge at the first criminal act he witnesses, because there is a larger objective to his being in peril.

    Frankly, Obama's far more covert war on terrorism has been vastly more effective, and less costly in lives lost, than any other strategy. Even doing Nothing is far worse, because the number of terrorist operations that are successfully undermined can not be fully known.

    I suppose the US could decide to void the second amendment and stop the manufacture and sale of guns entirely... seize all registered guns in the country...
    that might prevent a bunch of deaths... at least as long as it took the cartels to set up new sources from China or Russia, or Israel, Belgium, Britain, France, Italy or any of a hundred other nations that manufacture or resell guns.

    Again, it seems cold, to allow crimes to be committed because intervening will tip off your undercover surveillance.
    But, in truth, sophisticated law enforcement, espionage, and covert warfare require this approach.

    In outing Valerie Plame, Cheney and Rove exposed the entire covert CIA operation for tracking black market plutonium.
    Every company she ever met with was made suspect, every "job" she ever held, every professional association, every building she ever had an office in was all compromised and the CIA had to dismantle their entire operation and start over again from scratch.

    networks of information and methods of tracking terrorist attempts to get plutonium were wrecked... and we lost considerable ability to track these activities.
    The bad guys changed their entire MO and the efforts of hundreds of agents around the world were discarded, and the chances of preventing a dirty bomb or radical nuke attack were made far worse.

    This is what happens when you expose operations meant to give you knowledge about criminal networks.

    Just like war, There are hard choices in fighting criminal activity.
    Don't blame the folks trying to figure out how the bad guys organize and move illicit weapons and goods for the things the bad guys were going to do whether anyone was watching or not.
     
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