Sounds like a Klansman to me

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by visualalert, Apr 28, 2008.

  1. visualalert

    visualalert New Member

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    According to the Reverend, black kids have some kind of genetic thing that renders them unable to learn effectively using techniques that work with white folks. And Asian Folks, I guess including Asian Indians. And, for that matter, American Indians. And, presumably, Hispanics.

    Surprise, There is a Difference Between Black Brains and White Brains: Obama's Pastor Explains It All to You @ AMERICAN DIGEST

    (That's a summary with a sociopolitical POV; you can find Wright's speech online if you're interested.)

    Let's assume he's right and not a racist nutjob. There's the other possibility that he is a shrewd, if unethical businessman who built a profitable faith-based business/career (see Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart for other examples) based on amassing a large number of relatively unsophisticated supporters. His retirement home suggests that he's done pretty well financially:

    Obama’s Former Pastor Getting $1.6M Home in Retirement - America’s Election HQ

    And more power to him - I think financial success is a good thing, and it's unlikely he would have enjoyed such success anywhere else on the planet but in the US. But again, let's assume that he sincerely believes his rants and isn't just a flake or a money-grubbing fake.

    More to the point, let's assume that you, gentle reader, agree with him. He has said, about as explicitly as possible, that black children can't learn within the existing education industry because black children are biologically different from everybody else.

    Wright didn't propose a solution. So what's yours? Go back to segregated schools for black kids - who Rev. Wright apparently sees as a "special needs" population - while the rest of the "rainbow coalition" manages to deal? Did the "separate but equal" believers of so long ago actually have it right?

    If that offends you, what other prescription fits Wright's diagnosis?

    Yes, I am trolling to some extent. I expect a lot of "racist! racist!" name calling because name calling's easier than dealing with points raised (and because there appears to be a predominantly leftist political POV on LPSG, and leftists generally don't tolerate dissenting opinion).

    But "separate but equal" struck me profoundly as the only logical way to address Rev. Wright's complaints, and it would be interesting to hear other proposals.
     
  2. Pecker

    Pecker Retired Moderator
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    After the election he'll probably be recognised for the bigot he is.
     
  3. B_boynextdoorkpt

    B_boynextdoorkpt New Member

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    This has hurt Obama very badly, and I hope Rev. Wright keeps talking his crap, to help Hillary!
     
  4. B_Hung Muscle

    B_Hung Muscle New Member

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    Boynextdoor is right -- today's news cycle will be all over this story again. Rev Wright is swiftboating Obama.
     
  5. marleyisalegend

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    i'm not shut out to the idea he's proposing about black brains vs. white brains. it sounds absurd to me of course but there are many prolific differences between black "norms" and white "norms". some of the more obvious distinguishing differences between black people and white people are hair, skin tone, body shape, lips, nose, etc... and the differences going beyond external traits to internal is something i'd be interested in hearing more about. once i hear some solid research from one side or the other i wouldn't argue with or against the idea
     
  6. ManlyBanisters

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    Way to tell people what they think and how they are going to express it.

    Answering your point, or at least addressing it, I would say that I would like to see the evidence, test cases, etc. for this study. That isn't me throwing the argument back in your face - I'd be genuinely interested to read the methodoly and conclusion of this study.

    With educational matters I think it is hugely difficult to separate the effects of nature and nurture, certainly when it comes to an overall inclination to learn. Asians (certainly in the UK and Ireland) have a repution for excelling in educational terms, in all fields. This is most often attributed to the Asian culture(s), the child being encouraged and nurtured in their ability. It is seldom, if ever, attributed to genetic superiority.

    So with the black kids, who do appear statistically in the US to perform worse than other races in the current school system, why not attribute it to culture, a lack of encouragement to the cerebral. That seems a more likely explanation to me.

    What to do about it is an entirely different matter. I think segregation, regardless of motive, is a far too highly charged option. Allowing free remedial education to any student that requires it would be a good start, making it obligatory, even better.
     
  7. Phil Ayesho

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    Actually, he may be entirely right.

    Research shows that people of Native American and African origin consistently do not score as highly as do western Europeans...

    And that Europeans consistently do not score as highly as Asians.


    Because of the nature of the discrepancies, correlating so strongly with the various cultures length of urban civilization, many cognitive scientists conclude that Western style educational systems are not as effective with peoples that do not have a long biological history of similar social systems...


    That is, that those peoples who do not have thousands of years of history with urban civilization are genetically less adapted to the stresses and the socio/educational norms of urban civilization.


    It is important to note that this is NOT a reflection of actual intelligence nor ability...
    Its a reflection of how our very social fabric is unintentionally biased against people who have not had a hundred generations to adapt to it..


    In other words.... Africans and Native Americans and Aboriginal Australians are being Ill-served by an educational system that is not adapted to their biologically determined way of perceiving and relating to the world around them.
    Even the most subtle difference could cause a profound disparity.

    They may simply learn differently than westerners do.


    In a similar sense, it has been noticed that these same groups have much higher rates of stress related disease as well.
    Much higher rates of alcoholism.


    It could well be that western civilization, as it has evolved, has killed off all our ancestors who could not take the unique stresses endemic to living packed into city environments.

    Native and African Americans, genetically relatively new to these stressors, suffer them out of proportion.

    What looks to western eyes like a level playing field might actually be strongly inclined against those peoples without the same hundred generation history.

    Tiny stresses that, added up over time, cause our very society to be far more wearing on some... far less fair.

    If we can identify a method of education that minimizes this disservice... that would make the playing field genuinely more level....

    We owe that to the founding idea of all men being created equal.


    This unintentional and transparent cultural bias, despite our best intentions, might be the fundamental basis of prejudice...

    A prejudice we are not even aware of.
     
  8. ManlyBanisters

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    Interesting, Phi - sorry to be picky, but I object to the use of 'westerners' for the white europeans you appear to be talking about. I don't think you'll find eastern europeans differ that much, in terms of stats. Also, there are a great many people of colour who could and do call themselves 'western(ers)' - So your use is inaccurate.

    Also - you seem to be forgetting that the vast majority of europe was populated with the peasantry, who could not read, nor write and were rarely taught in formal enviroments either. The peasantry and their ancestors (of whom I'm almost certainly one) have had, possibly, 100 (150?) years extra in formal education systems, compared to most Africans (American and otherwise) [I don't know enough about education / numbers of peasantry v's educated classes in the various Asian regions to broaden that to include Asians.] Seems a very short time compared to what you are talking about.

    So I'm not sure that theory holds up, interesting as it is.
     
  9. mrpond

    mrpond New Member

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    being english i've noticed that not only blacks in usa talk different english;similar to irish amercan, italian american,polish american ( each has a different twang to the queen's english. so what point are you making..or are you just stirring it up.

    the guy talks sense this rev guy...dont shot the messenger listen to his message.
     
  10. marleyisalegend

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    one thing i love is how the media treats obama's pastor as if he's the first racist person in history and the idea of racism is just mind-boggling. i disagree with just about everything i've heard him say but if the KKK got as much attention as obama's pastor maybe we could bring about change in ohio where they still march through the streets. regardless, it would be interesting for them to study this idea. there are a million different explanations for the differences in educational effectiveness and phil stated most of those explanations so i won't bother repeating them but it'd be interesting to know if brain physiology is a factor as well. if studies prove this, imagine how difficult it would be reforming the US public school system knowing that a majority of your students literally can't learn what they're being taught
     
  11. Phil Ayesho

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    Fair enough...

    By "westerners, I actually mean the decendants that comprise what is generally referred to as western civilization.

    That would include all of East and western europe, all mediterranean peoples Egytptians.. etc.

    I would also include all Persians and Indians as people who have long histories of tight urban civilizations.

    From Egypt and the city of UR onward... there has been a focal, city based system of rule and law and social organization in what I loosely referred to as the "west".

    This is an uninterrupted history of urban hierarchical organization going back 5,000 years.


    Suggesting that "peasantry" is "not urban" I would have to disagree with...

    The Dark ages certainly were a hiccup... but there was still central organization, aristocracy, class, feudal obligation throughout the whole period. And Byzantium, Rome, Londinium, Alexandria, continued unabated.


    Contrast that with the purely tribal organization of most native Americans and Slave cultures from Africa ( africa HAD semi-urban civilizations... but they were the one selling slaves... not becoming slaves)

    Most Native American and African tribal cultures were consistently DEMOCRATIC.
    Because in a social sphere as small as a tribe, every one can have a voice and be recognized.


    In fact... the founding fathers of the US were strongly influenced by Native American democratic culture in coming up with the US constitution.
    ( the Native American term "chief" is not at all like "king"... in most native cultures it literally meant no more than "prominent and influential member of the tribe")



    Let me be clear that our "formal" education systems are not the only issue... its the entire scope of how we pass on information.

    We did not invent formal public education out of whole cloth... it was the natural outgrowth of how we already thought and saw and reacted to the world.

    And you simply can not discount genetics from having an influence on how we see and hear and fundamentally process information.

    We already know that Women's brains function differently than Men's ... of course long term geographical and social trends must also affect our genetic traits.



    While I can not swear that what I argue is true... I bring it up because an awful lot of recent evidence seems to indicate something fundamentally cultural about why certain groups of people seem to have more trouble than others adapting to western culture.

    Some Asians and most Indians adapt very readily with little difficulty.

    Could it be because the nature of our civilization is simply something they are better adapted to?

    Recent tribal ancestry is a very strong predictor of how well people tend to thrive, or not thrive, in an urban civilization.


    what seems to us to be a world of smooth edges, may seem a rough, abrasive, and high friction world to others.
     
  12. D_Claude Hopper

    D_Claude Hopper New Member

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    This thread intrigued me, not because of the woderful politics of race relations, but because I've had this discussion with my mother, a teacher of high school aged men and women for 38 years.

    She teaches mathematics first off, the least socially-vocabulary based of the school disciplines besides art and non-sung music.

    She see's every demographic of student, being in a town with a military base.

    One thing she is sure of is that there is no link between race and cognitive ability in a classroom. What she is sure of is that there is a direct link between congitive ability and DESIRE to learn, which is directly related to the socio-economic status and values of her students.

    Simply put, kids who have grown up in a situation where it's not APPARENTLY adventagious to THEM to learn, they won't try. The other thing that she notes is that, just like we all know, people learn in different ways, but the best way to learn is to teach other kids. This also transcends race and demographic.

    That being said, I doubt that the african-america, caucasian- american, hispanic american, native america, asian american, or poor or rich brain is wired exactly the same. We are all genetically predisposed in some ways that we can't even begin to unravel. However, simply put, if kids want to learn, and are ENGAGED. They will learn.

    She doesn't teach any group differently. She just teaches them to learn how they best do. The actual learning part is up to them.

    So the next time somebody uses race as an excuse for a child's ability to learn, just reach out and choke them for me.

    That's how I feel about it.

    -John
     
  13. dreamer20

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    Re: the retired pastor Wright

    I wish you had presented Wright's speech because the video presented at your link has nothing to do with the rhetoric written on the web page and in your post.

    In the video Wright begins by stating the Hebrews, and others, had an oral tradition of keeping a record of the Torah, that mnemonics helped them to remember long texts. The video mentions the way Americans speak English is different from the way that UK citizens speak it. It states repeatedly that this is only a different way of speaking, not a deficient way of speaking. Wright does a few impressions of JFK, LBJ and Ed Kennedy. Then he discusses the different timing beat of European classical music and music of West and South Africa.

    Of blacks and whites he states one is not normal and the other abnormal. One is not superior and the other inferior. So who was the source of your "black genetic deficiency" theory?

    I'm glad the former reverend has a home to live in. It must have been a slow news day for Fox News to devote a web page to this fact. I'm sure that this house pales in comparison to the lavish estates of the late Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson.

    None of this is relevant to Barack Obama or the issues facing the nation anyhow.
     
  14. D_Gunther Snotpole

    D_Gunther Snotpole Account Disabled

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    Mnemonics, dreamer.
     
  15. dreamer20

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    Thanks Rubi.:smile:
     
  16. dong20

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    And I thought it was just me. The leap from a speech about Oral (and musical) tradition and vocal dialects to an analogy with apartheid was special, wasn't it?:cool:

    My general impression of Wright is that he's a windbag, in love with the sound of his own voice ... irritating, but seldom indictable.
     
  17. B_Lightkeeper

    B_Lightkeeper New Member

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    Jeremiah Wright does not deserve the "Reverend" title nor does the homophobic Fred Phelps.

    BTW Pecker, I like your new look.
     
  18. bek2335

    bek2335 New Member

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    I voted for Obama in my state's primary, and I would still like to see him nominated and elected. But I think the Rev. would do Mr. Obama a favor if he would just shut up and go about his business. He must be some kind of narcissist to keep bringing the attention back onto himself, and he's only adding fuel to the fires of anyone who opposes Obama.

    When the news first broke about the reverend's "God Damn America" sermon, I thought immediately, "This is going to sink Obama." I hope I can be proven wrong, but each day it seems more likely that I will be proven right.
     
  19. faceking

    faceking Well-Known Member

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    Nah... Barry's nevah heard him say any of this sorta stuff. Twenty years of attendance, marriage, christenings, et al.... but hadn't heard it.
     
  20. faceking

    faceking Well-Known Member

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    What will sink Barry is his lack of experience and/or where he stands on the issues.
     
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