Southern Manners

boerkie

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i LOVE the"that's nice" instead of "F*&^k you"!
realised also that i have been told that a few times too.
lived in florida for a while, and while moving there, drove through texas. when i went through amarillo, i realised things are a changing, then took the 395 i think it was, through CHILDRESS, , and spent the night in that hick hole.en route to alexandria LA .here i am, fresh from west hollywood, dressed for comfort in a pair of baggy venice beach BRIGHT wrap pants. (volume knob included)
i stoppped for gas and two guys were sitting in a camaro, just sitting...walked past them and typical californian style said hi and smiled. men do that in west hollywood...grin.
o my lord!! a reaction and name calling like i never heard before, and i then realised, polite south, my ass!! its a very thin veneer that hides a multitude of such ugly attitudes towards anyone whose family tree does not grow straight up, and have more teeth than they have.
but i love florida, unsouth south as it is! proudly unsouth, i think!!
 

NCbear

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I'm about to lose all my southern friends with this one, which is why I've avoided posting here.

Yeah, southern hospitality is a noticable characteristic, it becomes noticable as soon as I cross the Ohio river into Kentucky. People talk to strangers, wave at passers-by and generally move at a slower pace. It seems nice enough, as long as you're willing to overlook a couple 500 pound gorillas in the living room- which if you're a "good" southerner, you are. This is exactly what I despise about southern "goodness".

The willingness to bury one's head in the sand and say things like "other than that nasty lingering racial prejudice, people here are so much nicer than in the north!" Well, maybe- if you're a married white protestant with a couple of kids. Try being a single mixed race person with no interest in dating for marital purposes, and you find out quickly enough how "nice" southerners really are. Not very.

The further south I go, the more of a nigger I become. Uncomfortable with that word? Good! So am I! Doesn't change the fact that I get called a nigger in the south, that would never happen here. Try to act like you don't know anybody who would do that, and I'll laugh right in your face. You're lying.

The further south I go, the more people ask me if I'm from New-York-City, because it's the only goddamned place I could be from if I'm not a native southerner. Everybody from the north comes from New-York-City, and they say all three words with some clear disdain. Blacks in the south have learned their place, and apparently I'm not up on the customs.

So you'll have to spare me the lemonade-handing out and the "bless your hearts" because I think it's a load of crap covering up a lot of social ill that doesn't get addressed because it's unseemly. Stick your fake manners up your ass, and learn to treat people like equally valuable human beings. As long as it's the south (and it is) that is the primary place where racial prejudice and prejudice against gays and women is still acceptable, as long as it's not addressed, I remain unimpressed with saying hi to other white people in the street. You VOTE to keep others down, some of those others you are nice to- to their faces. I find your "manners" cowardly and obscene.

I hear this a lot from my Northern friends. I usually start my counterpoint (not rebuttal) with the clear and obvious truth that yes, the South continues to have social ills, particularly those related to race and socioeconomic class (which for several centuries were interrelated). Yes, race-baiting still works, especially for socially conservative Republicans (who'd been Democrats before LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act, a stroke of the pen that basically lost the whole White Democrat vote for at least a generation). Yes, we still have plenty of illiterate people living in substandard conditions.

Two other points:

(1) Those very same social ills are problems in Northern areas, often as or even more virulent than down here.

[This is not an excuse for morally wrong behavior. Instead, this is an observation that both areas of the country need to clean up their own social problems.]

(2) The South has made tremendous strides in urban areas and some rural areas. Even unreconstructed Whites in some places have participated in racial healing discussions with Blacks they'd formerly been taught to despise and have learned to see people who are different as merely different, not bad (and not so very different, either). Similarly, some Blacks who have been terribly scarred by years of harsh, brutal discrimination have learned that not all Whites are untrustworthy manipulators.

There is hope, Mme. Zora. Some of those manners really do represent the goodness that truly exists in some people's hearts.

NCbear (who wishes Jana could meet some of the people he knows whose background is "complete and total redneck" but who do not discriminate at all in their friendships or voting records)
 

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[...]

One more point: Northerners: "Y'all" is PLURAL. ALWAYS. ONLY. It NEVER refers to a single individual. "How're y'all doing?" is ONLY addressed to a group of people. If you ask an individual, it's "How're YOU doing?" When you say, "How're y'all doing?" to an individual, you just sound stupid, kind of like I would if I tried to use "Youse". Also, the word "guy" refers to a MAN; "guys" means a GROUP OF MEN. If you are addressing, say, a M-F couple, the correct form of address is "How're Y'ALL doing?", not "How're YOU GUYS doing?"

[...]

Absolutely! And this is why, counterintuitively, the South (in its slang only) is less sexist than the North.

NCbear (who always used to wonder in college when the Northerners would use "guys" for all-male and mixed-gender groups whether their eyesight problem was a cultural thing)
 

madame_zora

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NCBear, in no way do I believe that all southerners are like this, nor that the north is free from all racial tensions! As in all things, it's a case of percentages, and exactly what is at stake in those less fortunate percentages.

Not being white, there are simply some places where I'm not safe. If you ARE white, then you just don't know what I mean, unless you've been in a rough black neighborhood late at night. The thing is, most white people just don't acknowledge that their white "brethren" are violent or cruel to niggers, when there's no one around to object. YOU may be the most expansive person alive, and your friends know better than to make racist comments in front of you, but there are probably a few of them who would, if they thought everyone around them was okay with it. That's the part you just don't see.

It might only be 20% of the people- let's say it is. What would that 20% do to a woman travelling alone, if they thought the other three guys there would just see it as a little harmless fun? I just took a trip to Louisiana and Texas a couple months ago, I've travelled through the south a lot, and will continue to. You're right- most of the people's manners are genuine, but then, so are mine. The difference is, I can't even get gas without having to "know my surroundings" like I'm in a bad neighborhood all the time. Ha, I spent a night in JAIL in Carollton KY ten years ago for a speeding ticket and some trumped-up claims about my insurance being innaccurate, which I later proved to be untrue. I still got to spend the night in JAIL with some rednecks making comments all night about how all niggers claim to be innocent, and these were cops.

No, it's not everyone. But YOU'RE never going to deal with the 20% who are like that, and I am. Fuck the south, sorry.
 

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Jana,

Having grown up in Texas, I think you have every right as a native born Southerner of color to be able to say that. I do on occassion feel the same dis-ease. When I went to UNC for a grad program I was prepared ,body on red alert, for snarling dogs. What I found was something very different. I was invited to house parties, everything my classmates experienced but at some point it hit me, I hadnt seen one black person who wasnt in a subservient role. I am ashamed that I hadnt really thought anything about it.The thing that hit me was that I found I was among people who if I said something usually could finish the rest of the sentence. That freaked me out TOTALLY! I had always thought this was a racial thing even though many of my friends at home did not have the same ability. Perhaps, it was regional or socio economic? I may never know. Now, if I had been with friends or family of a much darker hue I wonder what the issue would have been? Were they giving me the good behavior that might not have been granted under other circumstances? Was I that one "good negro" who made everyone feel good about themselves?





NCBear, in no way do I believe that all southerners are like this, nor that the north is free from all racial tensions! As in all things, it's a case of percentages, and exactly what is at stake in those less fortunate percentages.

Not being white, there are simply some places where I'm not safe. If you ARE white, then you just don't know what I mean, unless you've been in a rough black neighborhood late at night. The thing is, most white people just don't acknowledge that their white "brethren" are violent or cruel to niggers, when there's no one around to object. YOU may be the most expansive person alive, and your friends know better than to make racist comments in front of you, but there are probably a few of them who would, if they thought everyone around them was okay with it. That's the part you just don't see.

It might only be 20% of the people- let's say it is. What would that 20% do to a woman travelling alone, if they thought the other three guys there would just see it as a little harmless fun? I just took a trip to Louisiana and Texas a couple months ago, I've travelled through the south a lot, and will continue to. You're right- most of the people's manners are genuine, but then, so are mine. The difference is, I can't even get gas without having to "know my surroundings" like I'm in a bad neighborhood all the time. Ha, I spent a night in JAIL in Carollton KY ten years ago for a speeding ticket and some trumped-up claims about my insurance being innaccurate, which I later proved to be untrue. I still got to spend the night in JAIL with some rednecks making comments all night about how all niggers claim to be innocent, and these were cops.

No, it's not everyone. But YOU'RE never going to deal with the 20% who are like that, and I am. Fuck the south, sorry.
 

MH07

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Ha, I spent a night in JAIL in Carollton KY ten years ago for a speeding ticket and some trumped-up claims about my insurance being innaccurate, which I later proved to be untrue. I still got to spend the night in JAIL with some rednecks making comments all night about how all niggers claim to be innocent, and these were cops.

Zora, sorry you feel this way about the South. I promise, most of us are nice people.

On this particular example--being detained on trumped-up charges--be advised that this is in no way limited to skin tone---I had the same thing happen to me in Mississippi a long time ago, and I'm white. Has more to do with people being assholes than with skin tone.

If you're detained in Louisiana, the State Trooper has a credit card processor in his car. He stops you, tells you the fine, and you can pay on the spot or visit their jail. This also is without regard to skin tone (they're very equal opportunity about extorting money).

I will say, I was on the platform at Christopher St. when I lived in Manhattan, waiting for a train to take me back to the Upper West Side. Across the tracks, an interracial couple (straight) were kissing on the platform. The irish cop next to me said, "Ah, for the love of Mike, look at that white woman with a nigger." This was in 1987. I was completely shocked, looked at him with my mouth flapping open. First, I hadn't paid a whole lot of attention to them at all, other than to think, "Get a room!" Secondly, that he would notice and then make such a remark---geez. That was when I realized prejudice is universal.

I spent the longest year of my life in St. Paul, Minnesota. It was, in fact, too cold for me, but the main reason I quit my dream job and moved back home for -vastly- less money was that I was tired of perfect stangers (literally people I'd never met, like at the grocery store) hearing my accent, turning to me, and saying, "You fucking redneck southerner, why do you still hate black people?" (a) I don't hate black people. I like nice people, regardless of skin tone or accent. I dislike assholes, also regardless of skin tone or accent. (b) I can't help what my ancestors did. That was them. This is me. To hold me responsible for their actions (however reprehensible) is as unfair to me as it is to categorize someone (anyone) strictly on the basis of race. I was born in 1957. I can't correct things that happened in 1857, other than to live my life being as nice to other humans as I can be. (c) I highly resent the categorization as a "redneck". I'd like to think the Bachelors and Masters degrees I hold, my world travels, my years in New York and Los Angeles, my membership in the Episcopal church, the broad scope of my friends and my variety of interests separates me from "rednecks".

So, pardon me if I say, "Fuck the midwest".

As others have pointed out, I'm living here trying to CHANGE the way things are, rather than throwing up my hands and running (which, I admit, is a constant temptation).

I will also say: you can always come and visit ME. ;-)
 

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NCBear, in no way do I believe that all southerners are like this, nor that the north is free from all racial tensions! As in all things, it's a case of percentages, and exactly what is at stake in those less fortunate percentages.

Not being white, there are simply some places where I'm not safe. If you ARE white, then you just don't know what I mean, unless you've been in a rough black neighborhood late at night. The thing is, most white people just don't acknowledge that their white "brethren" are violent or cruel to niggers, when there's no one around to object. YOU may be the most expansive person alive, and your friends know better than to make racist comments in front of you, but there are probably a few of them who would, if they thought everyone around them was okay with it. That's the part you just don't see.

It might only be 20% of the people- let's say it is. What would that 20% do to a woman travelling alone, if they thought the other three guys there would just see it as a little harmless fun? I just took a trip to Louisiana and Texas a couple months ago, I've travelled through the south a lot, and will continue to. You're right- most of the people's manners are genuine, but then, so are mine. The difference is, I can't even get gas without having to "know my surroundings" like I'm in a bad neighborhood all the time. Ha, I spent a night in JAIL in Carollton KY ten years ago for a speeding ticket and some trumped-up claims about my insurance being innaccurate, which I later proved to be untrue. I still got to spend the night in JAIL with some rednecks making comments all night about how all niggers claim to be innocent, and these were cops.

No, it's not everyone. But YOU'RE never going to deal with the 20% who are like that, and I am. Fuck the south, sorry.

Mme. Zora, your experience sounds like a 1930s or 1940s trip through the Deep South. I continue to be stunned by the stories I hear from friends and about friends of friends about recent experiences. (Side note: I was stunned during my 12-year relationship with my ex how often anti-gay and anti-Black prejudice was conflated and leveled against us [he is Black and Cherokee and I am English and Scotch-Irish]. I have never had so many refusals of service in my life as I did during that period. I have never had to initiate so many public scenes with managers as I did during that period, either. It was an eye-opening experience, as you might well imagine. It keeps me from taking my ability to share in white male privilege for granted. It also keeps me from using that ability only for my own betterment; these days, I share the benefits as best I can in a lot of different ways.)

I hope like hell the percentage of bigoted jackasses is not as high as 20%, but I also know that just 20 minutes from where I live is a little community of inbred KKK sympathizers and members, and at the intersection of I-40 and I-95 the town of Benson (in eastern NC) is another hotbed of KKK activity. I'm sure there are other locations. While I was helping my boyfriend research current racial attitudes in the South for a Humanities 101 paper (part of his photography degree), we stumbled across the Southern Poverty Law Center (Southern Poverty Law Center), which acts as a barometer of Southern people's bigotry in much the same way that Klanwatch measures that of the KKK.

And yes, your experience is that of a person whose appearance -- through no fault of her own -- makes her a target. I have an alternate experience: I'm safe as long as I look and act like a straight white male. It's called passing.

Yes, I've heard those same jokes and I've been expected to sympathize with those same prejudices. (My passing for a straight white male, and my old-fashioned manners, make some people think I share their prejudices, so they open up around me.) As I grow older, I speak up more often, even though I have more to lose (reputation-wise as well as job-wise). Starting with my responses to certain members of my extended family at past family reunions, I've been speaking out for quite some time -- as do other Southerners who are tired of the bullshit.

And I suppose that's part of my point: I pass, so I hear lots of bigotry that others expect me to agree with, so I speak up and counter the bigoted crap (as do plenty of others I know who are in the same position). This means that the bigots see people like them who refuse to play the same racist (and the other "-ist" and "-obic" cards) they play in order to try to feel superior to other human beings.

Let me give one example. I work at an HBCU (for those who don't know, the acronym stands for Historically Black College or University). I'm on a commission appointed by the chancellor to study what had been reported in the media as a pattern of students (and ex-students) who were involved in violent crime. Yes, eight students in five years -- far fewer than the numbers at majority white schools in the state -- had been involved in violent crimes. We were named "Thug U." in the local media.

The city police captain participating in the investigation said, in a mixed black and white group (he was white), that (I'm paraphrasing here) of course similar methods to the ones that have been used to deal with gang violence in inner cities will be used to deal with the significant upsurge in violent crime at my institution.

Everyone looked at everyone else, obviously wondering whether he'd just said what they thought he said. He went on, oblivious to the glances crossing the room. I thought, Am I going to have to be the one to challenge this jackass's statement? And raised my hand and asked him, "What did you mean?" I kept asking him what he meant until he saw that I was trying to ask why he was comparing gang violence in inner cities with the record of violent crime at my institution.

I'm not saying this in an attempt to advertise what a good little white liberal I can be. I'm saying this in an attempt to help you understand that each of us, in small baby steps, is trying to make the South a safer place for everyone.

NCbear (who is deeply and profoundly embarrassed to have to admit that, in this day and age, traveling in the Deep South still feels as dangerous as it did prior to the Civil Rights movement for many whose appearance, through no fault of their own, marks them in some way as a minority)
 

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MH07, you missed my point. The part where the two cops stood outside my cell saying "All niggers claim to be innocent" was the racist part. While I appreciate your examples, they didn't address my point at all. Now, I can't swear that this would not happen in the north, I only said I was in Kentucky when it happened to me.

I was in Kentucky in 1979 when a sheriff in Hazard county told my then b/f not to let the sun go down on his nigger girlfriend's ass. We were running moonshine to him at the time, I couldn't make this shit up if I tried. I was in Parkersburgh WV in 1999 when six guys in white robes with hoods over their faces and torches in their hands stood in my front yard chanting "Nigger go home" during a blackout- it was among the scariest experiences of my life, and I'm really not a pampered princess. I've seen a lot. I can't swear it was the KKK, but I drew what I consider a logical conclusion.:rolleyes:

Despite these and a few less dramatic experiences, I acknowledge that I'm still pretty light. Some people don't consider me black. I get FAR less than someone with darker skin than mine, so I really understand from my small experiences what life is like for someone who's always black.

I appreciate those who are willing to stay with something flawed and try to change it from within. I understand those who feel this way about their church, their home, their family, their political party- I DO understand. Just try to understand that I didn't just materialise in the world yesterday, and I have a great deal of experience in the south, or I would have just let the thread pass and not speak. I have no desire to just draw divisions, but for those of you who claim to want to change for the better, how can you do so before you acknowledge honestly what the problems really are, and to what extent they exist? I think 20% is a fair estimate of the people who would actually comment (or give wrong directions- that one really pisses me off, and it happens a lot. Real fucking funny) because the ones who just stare are FAR higher than that.

I hate to be a whiner, but if you're white, this just doesn't happen to you, and you're probably completely unaware that your darker friends live a much different life than you do, occupying the same space. Now you know.

[Madame Zora who wishes people would stop being stunned by the perponderance of the evidence, and drop the fake manners and social niceties to call racists FUCKING racists right to their faces. THEN stop hanging out with them, trading with them, or voting with them. Start acknowledging that fucking RACISTS AND HOMOPHOBES are the same people, and a whole truckload of them are your southern neighbors. Stop defending horrible behavior by minimising it. Madame Zora who has a dream for America that revolves around the introduction of reality into our discussions in this country.]
 

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Zora, I don't pretend to know what it means to be black. I have many black friends, and have asked them, and they tell me, "We can't tell you what it's like to be black any more than you can explain what it's like to be gay---except you can hide the gay part if you have to, and we can't hide the black part."

Does racism exist? Hell, yes, and I almost lost my biggest customer over it 2 weeks ago; my senior partner was outraged that I called them on it ("Just let it go!" to which I replied, "I don't give a good goddamn whether they like it or not, I won't support racism and they can shove their business up their ass sideways." He hasn't spoken to me since...). I guess my points were, (a) racism does exist, but it is certainly not limited to the south! and (b) I don't like being classed simply because of my accent or skin tone or sexual orientation any more than you do.
 

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Zora, I don't pretend to know what it means to be black. I have many black friends, and have asked them, and they tell me, "We can't tell you what it's like to be black any more than you can explain what it's like to be gay---except you can hide the gay part if you have to, and we can't hide the black part."

Does racism exist? Hell, yes, and I almost lost my biggest customer over it 2 weeks ago; my senior partner was outraged that I called them on it ("Just let it go!" to which I replied, "I don't give a good goddamn whether they like it or not, I won't support racism and they can shove their business up their ass sideways." He hasn't spoken to me since...). I guess my points were, (a) racism does exist, but it is certainly not limited to the south! and (b) I don't like being classed simply because of my accent or skin tone or sexual orientation any more than you do.


See, this is the problem- people are not classifying YOU in any way when they speak of their own experiences. When I talk about my experiences with racism in the south, it's because it's true, and they are my stories to tell- they happened to ME. I made no comment on you whatsoever, nor did I attempt to classify you, or all southerners. I have pretty clearly stated by now what I assume the percentage of people who exhibit what I consider "unacceptable behavior" to be, and I believe it is a lower percentage than existed fifty years ago. I'm just saying that it's still OBVIOUSLY more of a problem in the south than the north, and to not acknowledge that is just an outright absurdity. While I've spent the majority of my life in the north, even in rural areas, I've never had anything worse happen to me because of my skin than name-calling. I can deal with that, I'm grown.

To be sure, none of the boys in my northern country high school would date me because of my race other than the other "city transplants" like myself, but I was treated pretty well other than that, as were the three other black kids in school. I wasn't beat up for my lunch money or anything like that. I did have to hear murmurings about my white mother being a nigger-lover. I didn't know it was an insult for years. How can loving someone be a bad thing?

The KKK is still quite active in Ohio, I pass some grand-puba's house on the way to Columbus all the time. The difference is that people point and laugh at them here (until bush took office we did, anyway). The problem with veiled racism is that you don't know when to expect it. When you walk into a ghetto- you know where you are, right? When it's white people, you just have no clue. They'll be sweet as pie to your face, then stab you in the back without so much as a "by your leave". Oh, the other white people will say it's a shame things are like that- they KNOW, they just don't want to be bothered to DO anything about it, like make those people stop. They won't shame their brothers into behaving decently because it might hurt their fucking feelings. Good grief.

I'm not gay, but I stand up for gay rights, just like you did with your racist customer. If gay people didn't let me know that they were having problems, how would I know? Please stop taking personal offense at me saying there are a lot of racists still in the south- it's just a fact, and we ALL know it. Stop trying to minimise the reality by saying it exists in the north too- we ALL know that too. Can we please just deal with the reality that red state, red voting, red politics is not a big, fat, gigantic mystery? Please? Then let's talk about the potential for harm, where do YOU imagine it's greatest, to someone who looks like me- NOT you?
 

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Oddly enough Boston is the most racist place I've lived.​

One of my friends says the same thing. She went to college up there for one year and hated it--found it to be quite racist, so she transferred to NC to go to a HBCU, where she found life to be a lot easier.
 

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My ancestors have lived in the south since the Cherokee arrived. I have some white relatives who are racist, and some who are not. Some of the ones who are racist had grandparents who grew up with slaves. Slaves were viewed as an economic necessity. Slavery existed in the North but for some reason people don't remember that.
I have been on the receiving end of racism because of my olive skin. The worst treatment I received was from fair skinned Hispanic women. They thought I was a dark skinned Hispanic teen and treated me like dirt.
The good manners in the South are for the most part geniune. A large portion of the antebellum residents were descendants of people from the UK. Many Welsh immigrants settled here. Family and friends are very important to them. It was hard settling the new country, and people took care of each other. It was a matter of life or death in Texas. The climate can kill you.
A lot of the formality came as a result of people emulating Queen Victoria. Manners are really just a sign of respect from one human to another. Sometimes, country people have better general manners than city people. They aren't the most refined but they are generally more caring and friendly.
I have been treated with great respect, and even given privilege because of my manners. How many others here have been the most honored guest at the society party of the year? It didn't just happen one year. I was the most honored guest 3 years in a row. It wasn't because of money, I no longer have a high paying job. It was because of manners, and good ole Southern charm.
MZ I am sorry that happened to you. In Louisiana, anyone with an out of state plate is a target. You can be hit by a citizen of that state, and you'll get the ticket. I only live about 5 minutes from the state border. Personally, I never go there. It seems to be one of the most archaic states.
There are speed traps all over the place. I have even encountered them in Colorado. They will patrol by airplane to catch you speeding there. You'd see more of them in California but the traffic never moves.