Spelling Nazis really get my ghoti

Pecker

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Originally posted by jonb+Sep 19 2005, 07:48 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jonb &#064; Sep 19 2005, 07:48 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Originally posted by DoubleMeatWhopper@Sep 19 2005, 10:19 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-headbang8
@Sep 19 2005, 07:04 AM
I&#39;m surprised that no-one has picked up on the in-joke about ghoti.  First person to cite it without googling it makes the honor roll.  (Spelled honour, of course)
[post=344588]Quoted post[/post]​


Unless I&#39;m mistaken, the fish joke has been done here before.
[post=344674]Quoted post[/post]​
Or huge.
g as in lasagne
h as in hot
o as in move
t as in tao
i as in one pronunciation of soldier

Now what&#39;s a ghoughpteighbteau?
[post=344770]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]

You say potayto, I say potahto.
 

D_Martin van Burden

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Heh. Seriously. Hung Muscle and Headbang said it way better than I ever could. Considering that this is a board focused around large genitalia, I&#39;m willing to knock my snytax, grammar, and spelling pegs down a notch or three.

Absinthium, you&#39;re fully entitled to your consistent want for proper English, but people certainly aren&#39;t going to respond positively to anger or frustration. Some neutral party may consider you quite beyond the neurotic line for making such a scene about Internet spelling, which wasn&#39;t really ever pretty to begin with, you see.

IMO.
BBQ.
WTF.
ROLFMAO.
teh
l33t
b33r
r0x0rz
&#33;&#33;&#33;one&#33;&#33;&#33;eleventyone&#33;&#33;&#33;one&#33;&#33;&#33;exclamation point

Letters and punctuation and parts of speech, oh my -- I think most of the people around here are willing to look past intentional or unintentional typoes to salvage an underlying message. That&#39;s why we can post several web pages&#39; worth of commentary on just about anything, grammar included. The conversation&#39;s still going. People are still willing to learn, to listen, and to respond.

They just let the grammar stuff slide, &#39;cause, really, grammar isn&#39;t going to solve world hunger, global warming, or impede the use of real fur, or improve international relations. It won&#39;t find a cure for AIDS or something more definitive for cancer. It won&#39;t reduce overpopulation or enact civilized and thoughtful gun control.

Our President might look a little more impressive if he didn&#39;t say "nuke-u-lur," but hey...

Here, have an ice cream sammich.
 

jonb

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Don&#39;t forget d00d.

Net lingo includes a mix of:

Acronyms: LOL, BRB, BTW, HTH, etc.

Old puns: 2318008 for "boobies".

Boolean operators: && for "and", || for "or", ^ for "xor" (meaning only one of the two can be true), &#33; for "not", == for "equals" or "is", &#33;= for "not equal" or "is not", < for "less than", > for "greater than", <= for "at most", >= for "at least", parentheses to make more sense.

Other programming puns: "Go fsck yourself&#33;" means "Go analyze yourself and fix your problems." because that&#39;s what Unix&#153;&#39;s file system check does.

Puns which only make sense in other language: 3Q and 39 for "thank you". In both cases it&#39;s a Japanese pun: san means three and kyu means nine.

Puns on acronyms: lmaonade, lollerskates, etc.

ASCII art: <3 for "love", </3 for "hate", smilies, etc.

Ironic use of l33tsp33k or tyops: teh, d00d, warez, etc.
 

absinthium

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Originally posted by Hung Muscle@Sep 19 2005, 08:25 PM
Would it shock you to find out that your rants and name-callings might do one of just two things: (1) have people believe you&#39;re actually a little nutty or an out-of-touch snob or (2) chase good-natured people away from the board who didn&#39;t know you needed a command of perfect English to post about big cocks on LPSG.
[post=344777]Quoted post[/post]​

Would it shock me? No. I&#39;m never shocked when a concern for education is seen as out of touch with the rest of society. I have never made a claim that perfect English is required for anything. "Perfect English" is a ridiculous and unattainable concept. If you&#39;d actually take the time to read what I&#39;ve been posting on the matter, I only ask that adults spell simple words correctly and maybe try to not sound ignorant. But, thanks for playing.

We have some nice parting gifts for your dumb ass.
 

madame_zora

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Originally posted by absinthium@Sep 19 2005, 01:39 PM
Alright, look, I&#39;m too angry to read all of the replies by the dozens of freshly vindicated morons defending their right to spell poorly, but here are a couple of glaring flaws with your argument right off the bat...
a. Never admitting you make a mistake means you never learn anything.
b. If no one is allowed to address spelling errors in a general way for the fear of hurting someone&#39;s feelings, no one ever learns anything.
c. Everyone who should know better, and is just too lazy to spell and punctuate their posts on this board, and the internet at large, are just perpetuating bad behavior for no reason, and, in the long-run HURTING MY RETINAS.
d. Adults getting their feelings hurt because someone points out a spelling error is just more evidence of America (and probably the rest of the world, because of us) becoming too goddamn P.C. for our own good. Feelings really are the most important thing these days, huh? Not education, not reason, NO -- feelings.
[post=344614]Quoted post[/post]​

You said a mouthful, but that&#39;s no surprise. Adults with egos this delicate get on everyone&#39;s nerves&#33; Jesus on a pogo stick, a tiny mistake is just that. If I write "cheifly" instead of "chiefly" it probably means I was typing too fast, but if someone points it out, I may pay more attention next time. I don&#39;t proceed to flog myself or cut my wrists because of the public humiliation&#33;

We&#39;ve had plenty of experience with n00bs who post horrifically misspelled posts about incest, beastiality, rape and the like to know that these folks are indeed mentally disturbed. However, people who can write well thought-out posts but consistantly substitute "there" for "their" should know better, and not be too touchy to learn the difference.

No one&#39;s suggesting flaming individual posts, but talking about them separately shouldn&#39;t intimidate any single person unless they have ego issues to begin with, and this isn&#39;t the low-self-esttem-because-I-can&#39;t-spell support group. It is a group that has produced some very valid posts by a multitude of culturally diverse and intelligent posters with a vast range of experience and knowledge. Age, race, gender and sexual orientation notwithstanding, we have a great group of people and add new ones daily. We are fortunate enough to have several educators as members as well as members who have respect for the spoken word. I doubt we&#39;d have the following we do were it not for the quality of both the writing and the seriousness of the subject matter discussed. Rarely have I seen a new member post a serious query only to be flamed for a typo, that&#39;s just not how we operate, nor will we.

On the other hand, those who offer only irritation AND bad spelling are in for a bumpy ride.
 

B_DoubleMeatWhopper

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Originally posted by absinthium@Sep 19 2005, 09:05 PM
No. I&#39;m never shocked when a concern for education is seen as out of touch with the rest of society. I have never made a claim that perfect English is required for anything. "Perfect English" is a ridiculous and unattainable concept.

And I agree that perfect English isn&#39;t necessary, but what about acceptable English? I have seen people turned down for jobs because they couldn&#39;t speak anything but substandard English. "Oh, stewardess, I speak jive&#33;" Well, good for June Cleaver, but many members of the general populace really don&#39;t want to interpret ghetto slang while conducting business. Just as bad is listening to a receptionist who has the language skills of Elly May Clampett. That doesn&#39;t exactly smack of professionalism. Sure, some people can sail through life with total disregard for grammar, spelling, punctuation and syntax, but my job is to provide skills that can open options to my students. Teaching people to use English better than LovesDick is not, in my opinion, to be condemned. A command of one&#39;s native language should not be restricted to teachers, grammarians and authors. Proficiency in language can only improve one&#39;s ability to communicate his thoughts. How many posts here at LPSG have been composed with such a flair for illiteracy that the other readers couldn&#39;t make heads or tails of them? Sadly, more than a few. I think it unfortunate that literacy is going down the drain; excuse me if I decline from joining in with the readers here applauding its demise.
 

D_Martin van Burden

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Just don&#39;t make the presumption that bad spelling is the same as irritation. If anything, certain individuals&#39; commitments to honoring proper language is respectful in its own right, but it certainly loses something of meaning when it&#39;s being blown out of proportion. I think most posters agree and appreciate good language skills, and perhaps find it refreshing to see IMs written in proper form -- and there are probably just as many people who don&#39;t care either way because someone else&#39;s mistakes do little to compromise their own habits and manners.

I do. I blog in standard English, but I don&#39;t do it over IMs, and I&#39;m prone to goofing up, too. I just get over it. I don&#39;t go out of my way to hide it or to show it; it&#39;s just not that damn important.

I don&#39;t understand why a simple PM wouldn&#39;t do the trick just as well. "Hey," Hung Muscle might say to me, "were you too busy masturbating while you were posting? [insert emoticon] You fudged up some spelling. Slow it down."

Now, honestly, does it come across that way when blasted to the whole forum? A separate thread just for the topic of mistakes? Better yet, just a thread dedicated to an individual who goofed up either intentionally or unintentionally?

Seriously, I haven&#39;t heard a good reason yet.

And speaking of ego...

Reverence for the English language? The power of language as art? Spoken word? I might need something a little more prolific or meaningful or deep presented before I start agreeing with these kinds of arguments. It&#39;s just an extra "u" here, an extra "e" there, an italicized reference over there. Share some poetry, a brief essay, or another scholastic interest if you want to turn people&#39;s heads.

You want spoken word? Go stand up in front of a microphone at a coffee house and preach your peace. Don&#39;t insult that craft by mincing words here.

Or, if you want to make it more Internet-friendly, why not divert that extra energy into furthering useful conversations? If you want to make more of a stand in the realm of education, write your municipal and state representatives for better funding for public education programs and community efforts.

Don&#39;t overinflate the importance of a typo. I guess I&#39;m skeptical. I don&#39;t know of a good or useful way to devote time and energy to grammar without making it any more than a pissing contest. I&#39;ll keep my eyes open, though. Show me something constructive and this guy might just change his mind a bit.
 

Pecker

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I misspelled misspell in Miss Spelling&#39;s spelling class at Spelling Middle School (just a spell down the road from the Hotel Spell) during that long dry spell when we all got a dizzy spell trying to make it rain with that silly black magic spell which the strange cajun lady spelled out for us.

BRB - gotta go spell the night watchman for a spell.
 

madame_zora

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Oh Dee, you&#39;re so funny. You, Jacinto, Monty and I have all flamed individual posters for grammar, one not more than the other. Why are you so blind to your own faults?

While I am not a master linguist, I can assure you Absinthium is. I hope she does post some of her poetry, it is a beautiful expression of language used as art, in my opinion. I have been one left with only the skills to appreciate great music and art, alas I have no great talent in either. My own abilities tend to be more common, but there are times when that serves a purpose as well. I would never hold myself up as an example of perfect English. My worst grammatical flaw is my overuse of punctuation, specifically the comma, and run-on sentences that use far too many words to express far too simple a thought where meaning is half-murdered as I meander through an ever entwining thought process that would probably make sense if I just didn&#39;t feel the need to put every theory I ever imagined into just one sentence.

At least I&#39;m aware of it.
 

prepstudinsc

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Originally posted by madame_zora@Sep 20 2005, 01:44 AM
Oh Dee, you&#39;re so funny. You, Jacinto, Monty and I have all flamed individual posters for grammar, one not more than the other. Why are you so blind to your own faults?

While I am not a master linguist, I can assure you Absinthium is. I hope she does post some of her poetry, it is a beautiful expression of language used as art, in my opinion. I have been one left with only the skills to appreciate great music and art, alas I have no great talent in either. My own abilities tend to be more common, but there are times when that serves a purpose as well. I would never hold myself up as an example of perfect English. My worst grammatical flaw is my overuse of punctuation, specifically the comma, and run-on sentences that use far too many words to express far too simple a thought where meaning is half-murdered as I meander through an ever entwining thought process that would probably make sense if I just didn&#39;t feel the need to put every theory I ever imagined into just one sentence.

At least I&#39;m aware of it.
[post=344894]Quoted post[/post]​

I&#39;m not blind to my own grammatical faults. I know that I make typos once in a while, usually as a result of typing too quickly and not proofreading before sending.
I&#39;m human, so shoot me. However, when attacked for a typo by a person who always makes typos--puh-leeze. THAT is when I have a problem. I still stand by my assertion that when in the USA use American standards for grammar, whether spelling or punctuation, and if in the UK or one of her territories, British English is perfectly fine. However, my post was actually directed towards a few people who are American but prefer a few British spellings only on some words, but it seems to have been interpreted as a slam towards DMW&#39;s grammar, but if the shoe fits...
If an American who grew up in the USA and never went to school in England or anywhere else in the UK uses British spellings, but not British punctuation, it just comes off looking contrived and phony, trying too hard to be pissy and not making the mark. Drop the pretense is all I&#39;m saying. We all make mistakes and it&#39;s no big deal if we make a typo, but when someone makes repeated mistakes (I love going to the store "wear" I can "here" new music) that is irritating. If somebody just is typing quickly and they type "teh" for the, who cares, because I know what they meant.
 

D_Martin van Burden

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Heh. Jana, c&#39;mon now. The only people I bust for grammar are you and your crew -- and that&#39;s more out of fun and mockery than anything else. I&#39;m surprised that such intelligent people would mistake my stab at humor and slight mockery for an unsolicited English lesson. :)

Until members start dedicating threads to poetry, essay, or short novel or some other creative form, I&#39;ll leave the "language as art" argument well enough alone. Maybe you should do the same.
 

DC_DEEP

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Most of the grammar, spelling, and punctuation corrections I see on this board are not corrections of simple, common typos. Here/hear, there/their/they&#39;re, its/it&#39;s... the list goes on; misuse of homonyms in written language are not just annoying, they are confusing and frustrating. Their "they&#39;re" there where it does not belong just screams to be corrected. I know the language itself is to blame, it&#39;s its own fault. We hear here what we should not.

So many posts on here are saying, "there is nothing wrong with misuse of the language." I say, "there is nothing wrong with correct usage." I am actually rather surprised that so far, none of the supporters of "demonstration of ignorance through language abuse" has stupidly and arrogantly asserted First Amendment citations to further the stance.

It would seem to boil down to this: use annoying and obfuscating disregard for spelling, grammar, and punctuation, if you so choose; be prepared, however, for the consequences.
 

Sabln7

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I have kept my mouth shut. The English language is a growing and changing entity. Grammar changes as the language changes. There is prescriptive grammar, based on Latin rules; there is descriptive grammar based on how the English language is actually used. Examples:

Prescriptive: It is I. To whom should I give the money.

Descriptive: It is me. Who should I give the money to.

Prescriptive: Each student should give his or her paper to his or her teacher.

Descriptive: Each student should give their paper to their teacher.

I used to be an absolute nut on prescriptive grammar and thought nothing else should be used. However, English does change and evolve, so I have learned to accept descriptive grammar. Failure to do so makes it impossible for one to watch TV or read newspapers without getting upset&#33;

The truth is, jobs in business and education go to those who speak at least descriptive grammar. Casual or gutteral grammar or such variations as ebonics usually close doors to opportunity.

That is the reason to teach standard English and to use it. Economic opportunity, in most fields but not all fields, requires it.
 

Sabln7

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And, the reason our children can&#39;t read, spell, or speak correctly is that they are not:

HUKED ON FONIKS
 

B_DoubleMeatWhopper

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Originally posted by DeeBlackthorne@Sep 20 2005, 09:14 AM
Until members start dedicating threads to poetry, essay, or short novel or some other creative form, I&#39;ll leave the "language as art" argument well enough alone. Maybe you should do the same.

Art simply means &#39;skill, or its application&#39;. Sure, it can be applied to poetry or creative prose, but it need not be used in that context exclusively. The sense that I intended is the ability to use language effectively. I assume you agree that people should strive to use language to clearly express their thoughts. Glaring errors can distract readers and defeat the writer&#39;s purpose. Substandard English can be used very effectively when trying to evoke a mood; Porgy and Bess and the works of Robert Burns are excellent examples. However, that is not what we see in posts here. And I understand that some people suffer from dyslexia, but that is also not the cause of the incomprehensible posts here. Why post anything at all if it&#39;s unintelligible?

However, my post was actually directed towards a few people who are American but prefer a few British spellings only on some words, but it seems to have been interpreted as a slam towards DMW&#39;s grammar, but if the shoe fits...
If an American who grew up in the USA and never went to school in England or anywhere else in the UK uses British spellings, but not British punctuation, it just comes off looking contrived and phony, trying too hard to be pissy and not making the mark

I have no desire to shoot you: you&#39;re entitled to your opinion. Just because Dr. Dilznick claims that I don&#39;t use British punctuation doesn&#39;t make it so. I checked with The Cambridge Style Book of Composition, and my punctuation conforms with its dictates pretty closely with one exception: I over-punctuate. But that&#39;s not an American standard either. My punctuation is more British than American, albeit a rather conservative variety. Chalk that up to reading a lot of Tolkien in my late teens&#33; The few American tendencies in my punctuation are, I suspect, due mostly to the influence of my native Spanish: its punctation is much closer to American than to British English usage. Remember that is is the language that I used for the first fifteen years of my life: you don&#39;t think that might leave its mark in ways other than an accent? I have no desire to look &#39;pissy&#39;. If you see my language usage as an attempt to do so, so be it: it&#39;s your right to choose your views. However, I&#39;m sure you don&#39;t expect me to revise my writing habits to please anyone&#39;s sense of linguistic propriety.
 

prepstudinsc

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I would much rather see too much punctuation than not enough. There are many posters on here who wouldn&#39;t know how to use a comma or a period to save their life. The posts that are almost stream of consciousness with no uppercase letters and no punctuation are the ones that really get to me. I sometimes can not figure those posts out.

Regarding the British spellings of American posters, though, there are a couple of posters, DMW not included, that come off as trying to be pissy when they talk about colour and favourites, etc. I still say it looks contrived.
 

Freddie53

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Originally posted by prepstudinsc+Sep 19 2005, 07:16 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(prepstudinsc &#064; Sep 19 2005, 07:16 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Freddie53@Sep 18 2005, 11:23 PM

<SNIP>


So Monty I did find much humor in finding a typo in a post about having  posts in good order before you click on "Add Reply."
[post=344524]Quoted post[/post]​

Freddie, I would be the last one to critique anyone&#39;s postings because yours are full of typos. Leaving off a y in they was a result of one of two things--either typing two fast (most likely) or that my wireless keyboard needs new batteries. I have noticed that sometimes it does drop letters as I type.

Big deal, I left off a y in the word they, you obviously knew what I meant. Do you want me to go through some of your posts quoting your typos? Don&#39;t get me started...

Anyway, my post was not about posts being in order, it was about teachers not teaching proper spelling or letting students pass when they COULD NOT or DID NOT spell properly. Go back and read.
[post=344592]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]
Monty, I was just being humorous about your error. It is the same error I make all the time. Had it not been in a post about spelling errors, it would not have been funny. I know you write well. I wasn&#39;t trying to critique your post. You have some very valid posts. And I apologize if I offended you. I just found it humorous.

And your retort pointed out what all of us need to remember, simple typos that have only one or two in a post are not the same as having nearly all the words wrong.

And I have realized that I make mistakes. I have lately tried to do better. Yes, that suggestion about clicking on "Preview Post" is what I have to do. The font it bigger and I can read it a lot better. I tend to read by the outline of words. Often I find that if it is not a word that I know, I can&#39;t read all the letters. But if I click on "Preview Post" I can catch a lot more errors than I can if I don&#39;t. I realize that only works for those who really know the spelling, but have made some sort of typo. And yes, many of my mistakes are from typing too fast. And I have assumed that I didn&#39;t type anything wrong because usually I catch mistakes as I type. We all know what the word assume means.

AS a retired teacher, I know how easy it is to assume that it is the teachers&#39; fault. But in reality, most decisions especially in elementary school are not made by the teachers. The number of lower elementary students that needed to be retained weren&#39;t because the teachers suggested it and the administration vetoed it. The time to retain is when the students at the grade level where the student doesn&#39;t know the material, not later. Example: If a child in grade K doesn&#39;t know his or her numbers and recognize the alphabet and at least recognize his or her name when he or she sees it in print, retention should be done then. If a child is born after April 1 and is behind on all child growth and development criteria, the child should be held back at Grade K. Don&#39;t wait until later when the child will be embarassed and made fun of by other students and the child is so far behind that is doesn&#39;t make any difference what grade the child is in because the child doesn&#39;t have any basic skills.

I still maintain that the parents should be held the most accountable. When parents have to go to school and miss a day&#39;s pay because their child is not doing what he is able to do, then scores will rise dramatically. You wouldn&#39;t believe the number of parents that go balistic when the word "retain" is mentioned or heaven forbid, their child gets an F in a subject. And guess whose fault it is that the student got the F. Of course the teacher, not the child who refused to do his or her work.

Again, please accept my apologies for offending you. My absolute best friend is a strong Republican and I am a strong Democrat. We discuss politics. He explains his side and I explain my side. We enjoy the simple debate. So just because we might disagree on some subjects doesn&#39;t mean that I don&#39;t respect you greatly. We are both organists and have e-mailed each other. I consider you a friend.

For the record, after thinking I had no errors, I clicked on "Preview Post." I found three that I missed. But one of them wasn&#39;t a spelling error, it was a verb usage error. Hopefully I caught them all. At least I tried.
 

B_DoubleMeatWhopper

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Originally posted by prepstudinsc@Sep 20 2005, 03:14 PM
I would much rather see too much punctuation than not enough. There are many posters on here who wouldn&#39;t know how to use a comma or a period to save their life. The posts that are almost stream of consciousness with no uppercase letters and no punctuation are the ones that really get to me. I sometimes can not figure those posts out.

We agree on something there. Lack of punctuation is a huge pet peeve of mine. That&#39;s why parts of Eats Shoots and Leaves are required reading in my senior English classes.
 

Lex

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Originally posted by southPA50+Sep 19 2005, 05:34 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(southPA50 &#064; Sep 19 2005, 05:34 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Originally posted by Dr. Dilznick@Sep 19 2005, 04:57 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-DoubleMeatWhopper

From a linguistic point of view, bad English is bad English. Even as a functional tool, language has rules of grammar, syntax and spelling. Ebonics willfully ignores those features, so is a renegade dialect.

It&#39;s a dialect with its own grammar and syntax. Try again.
[post=344729]Quoted post[/post]​
Perhaps you could &#39;splain how that works, Ebonics grammar?

For example, when I was walking in Annapolis a couple weekends ago and was asked by a teenaged girl, " &#39;scuse me, can I axe you sumfin? What kind a dogs them is?"

THAT has it&#39;s own grammar and syntax? Who writes *those* rules?

I would rather believe it&#39;s the lack of education and parental influence that perpetuates that sort of "dialect". If one of my kids would ever have used such horrendous grammar, they would have been corrected instantly; it simply wouldn&#39;t have been tolerated, the public school system notwithstanding.

Ebonics is simply an excuse to rationalize dumbing-down. &#39;Don&#39;t correct that poor child&#39;s hideous grammar, you might hurt their feelings, or cause them to lose self esteem.&#39; No, rather allow them to continue through life sounding like an uneducated sod, making excuses for their lack of education at every turn. They&#39;ll certainly go far with that help.

Sorry, it simply perpetuates the whole PC myth that the rest of the world has to lower it&#39;s standards to the lowest common denominator in order for the "underprivileged" to progress. I don&#39;t buy it. If you want to get ahead, better yourself; that starts with rising to a level above where you are, that requires education.

<steps down from milk crate>
And no, mine isn&#39;t perfect, either. But I make a righteous effort, and correct it when I learn it&#39;s wrong.
[post=344735]Quoted post[/post]​
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ASHA clearly recognizesd "Black English" (also called African American dialect) as a rule-based system, that when analyzed, closely resembles the rules and patterns of Southern Dialect.

The Ebonics movement (if you could call it that) was more or less an attempt to not teach urban kids the necessity and value of being able to code switch. I was taught (by my high school public speaking teacher) to do this--that is, to be able to speak both the King&#39;s English and the Corner&#39;s English--that there are places and contexts where one might be more appropriate than another. For example, hanging out in the barbershop versus having a meeting in the boardroom. Not switching your code in some urban settings can be viewed as disrespectful (i.e, talking down you rnose at someone).
 

B_Hung Muscle

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Madame Zora, I&#39;m so surprised some of your outspoken friends (the grammar and spelling Nazis) are reluctant to point out an unfortunate and tragic mistake in your signature line.

It says "little or no pms." It SHOULD say "few or no pms." We wouldn&#39;t want anyone&#39;s retinas detroyed by this or to have them call you "retarded" or "stupid" or "lame-ass" or "shit" or any of the other words thrown around here; maybe you could correct this error.

If we&#39;re going down that path, let&#39;s all go together.