Spill, baby spill: Experts fear the spill could spread to East Coast

[matticus201]

I wasn't taking up for big oil. I was trying to make the point that the industry is doing nothing but producing what America is demanding. That's what good buisnesses do, like it or not. And, yes, I seriously find it ridiculous that so many Americans hate big oil, and then turn around and hand them record profits every year. Personally, I have my own views regarding commerce vs. environment, but I didn't share them here on purpose.

unabear09, I think you missed my larger point. Until the American people make tough decisions about the way we consume our Earth, the result will be the same. You are absolutely correct, our dependance on oil has allowed world oil companies to control every aspect of our lives, just as you said. But for my part, I find anger at the oil companies misdirected. We gave them that power. We have to accept part of the responsibility for their decisions, because without our oil addiction, they wouldn't have that power.

 

[B_talltpaguy]

Furthermore, if you ask me, there's not a person in this country that can't be forced to take a little of this responsibility on themselves.

I just don't think allowing the two of the biggest corporations in the world to go under because of law suits is the answer.

And it is precisely this servile logic that allows the human owners of corporations to perpetuate their crimes against society for the sake of personal gain. You can self loathe all you want, but when culpability for this disaster has been determined, I for one will be demanding that the responsible entities be liquidated to pay for the losses of the affected. Anything less will be absolutely unacceptable, and will send the same message that has been sent to the owners of corporations since their conception; so long as your crimes turn a profit, we'll let you get away with it, no matter who you hurt in the process.

A crime that goes unchecked will continue to occur in perpetuity. The cycle MUST be broken.

 

[HazelGod]

I was trying to make the point that the industry is doing nothing but producing what America is demanding. That's what good buisnesses do, like it or not.

Yeah, just like meth and heroin dealers are engaging in good business practices by producing products their customers demand...

Your simplistic evaluation of the energy market overlooks so many details that it's hardly worth addressing...the most obvious being that demand for petroleum-based products is not elective.

when culpability for this disaster has been determined, I for one will be demanding that the responsible entities be liquidated to pay for the losses of the affected. Anything less will be absolutely unacceptable

I couldn't agree more.

 

[matticus201]

A crime that goes unchecked will continue to occur in perpetuity. The cycle MUST be broken.

Agreed. But do you think that the punishment of the responsible entities will be enough to incite industry-wide change? I get the sense that some people think it will. I think that without a willingness to change on the part of the American people, it won't make much difference. Maybe it's due in part to the state I live in. Even after the oil spike, people were still driving around in gas-guzzlers.

 

[B_talltpaguy]

Agreed. But do you think that the punishment of the responsible entities will be enough to incite industry-wide change? I get the sense that some people think it will.

Yes... because a new precedent will be set, using existing laws... Society doesn't care how big your company is or how many workers it employs; Nobody is beyond reproach. Nobody is 'too big to fail'.

I think that without a willingness to change on the part of the American people, it won't make much difference.

And displaying a willingness to undergo personal short term pain (like temporarily higher fuel prices, until a new industry equilibrium is established), to prevent longterm agony (like oil spills and other myriad corporate abuses of society) is precisely the sort of 'change' that American society must now own up to.

 

[dandelion]

How long do you think the American people could sustain paying $8, $9, $10 a gallon for gas?

Im curious. How much does it cost now? In the Uk its about $8 per gallon (£1.20 per litre). People were saying this sort of level was temporary before the bank crash, it dipped a bit but I would say it is now permanent.

You can self loathe all you want, but when culpability for this disaster has been determined, I for one will be demanding that the responsible entities be liquidated to pay for the losses of the affected. Anything less will be absolutely unacceptable, and will send the same message that has been sent to the owners of corporations since their conception; so long as your crimes turn a profit, we'll let you get away with it, no matter who you hurt in the process.

A crime that goes unchecked will continue to occur in perpetuity. The cycle MUST be broken.

Well you wont break it by fineing the company. Exactly the same issue applies to the nuclear power industry. As I understand it there is a thing called the Price-Anderson nuclear indemnity act in the US, which basically insures nuclear plants against catastrophic accidents. Rather similar I should think to the potential disaster happening now. The PA act was created because private industry refused to take on the potential liabilty for a nuclear accident. They felt the risk was too great and refused to build any nuclear plants. Similarly, if you make oil exploration too potentially risky, no one will agree to do it.

I agree with matticus. The oil companies exist because we demand that they exist. Obviously there can be well managed and badly managed companies, which cause more or less collateral damage. But the reality is that the pollution from this spill is negligible compared to the overall polluting effect of the oil industry operating perfectly.

Slightly beside the point, The history of oil spills was being discussed today with a couple of important conclusions. To date no spill has turned out as bad as was feared. To date, almost all efforts to clean up or limit spills have been either futile or even counter productive. Maybe you can try to keep it away from beaches, but basically the best way to clear up the spill is let nature take care of it. There is nothing which can be done but it wont be as bad as people think. The difficulty here is an open well under water, with some optimistic noises about how to close it, but who knows.

If you want to stop oil spill pollution there is only one way to do it, stop moving oil around the world. If you want to stop global warming, stop using it. Change your life to use half as much fuel and there will be half as much pollution. Simple enough. On the other hand if you double your consumption (which seems more likely), its no good blaming oil companies for what you have chosen to do.

 

[B_talltpaguy]

Well you wont break it by fining the company.

I didn't say fine them, I said to revoke their corporate charter and liquidate all US based assets to pay off the losses of the victims of their reckless disregard for their societal obligations.

It's the same thing that would happen to me personally, were I to commit a similar act. I would be sent to prison and barred from ever performing whatever act it was that led to the disaster ever again.

 

[matticus201]

Yes... because a new precedent will be set, using existing laws... Society doesn't care how big your company is or how many workers it employs; Nobody is beyond reproach. Nobody is 'too big to fail'.

If a new precedent is set, then we will have truly not only learned something from tragedy, but applied that lesson. That would definately be the best outcome.

And displaying a willingness to undergo personal short term pain (like temporarily higher fuel prices, until a new industry equilibrium is established), to prevent longterm agony (like oil spills and other myriad corporate abuses of society) is precisely the sort of 'change' that American society must now own up to.

Again, agreed. This would mark a significant shift in thinking in our society. The cynic in me just questions whether or not our society will accept it. And, I would add that without that acceptance, we can revoke as many charters as we want, but none of that will stick. As long as people are buying things, companies are going to make those things. Whether that be oil, or heroin or meth. It may be simplistic, but it's true.

 

[matticus201]

Im curious. How much does it cost now? In the Uk its about $8 per gallon (£1.20 per litre). People were saying this sort of level was temporary before the bank crash, it dipped a bit but I would say it is now permanent.

Right now in Dallas at the gas station across the street they've got regular unleaded at $2.67 a gallon.

 

[Bbucko]

I'm sorry, but I continue to be absolutely baffled by the hatred shown toward big oil. Yes, it's an industry that has, by and large, not done it's part in the past to find paths toward safer production, lower costs, and alternative sources of energy. However, I'd like anyone to name me a company that serves as an example of these traits. I can't name one. The fact of the matter is that we are a society built solely on the availability of cheap oil. We drive long distances to work from suburbs into downtowns, we have spead out across vast tracts of land, we have strip malls and interstate highways and virtually no method of public transport outside of major cities. Like it or not, we've made this decision for ourselves, and we continue to make it each and every time we support any company that uses plastic in it's products, or any of the other countless derivative chemicals that come from oil production, including gas that powers the big cars we love.

The spill in the Gulf is a disaster. It's ramifications will be felt for many years to come. Whoever is responsible should be liable for the damage. But until a formal investigation is completed revealing the cause of this spill, fault can't be placed anywhere. Furthermore, if you ask me, there's not a person in this country that can't be forced to take a little of this responsibility on themselves. I know I surely can't. I drive a car. I buy gas. Oil has to be produced to get gas. Oil production is a dangerous business, and part of this lurking danger is a spill like the one currently threatening the ecosystem in the gulf. We all know that this is a risk. And yet we continue to demand the fix for our oil addiction. All of us do. No one is exempt.

[...]

We have no one to blame for this need but ourselves, because WE built our society. And, like it or not, the Haliburtons, BPs, and Exxon/Mobiles are a part of our society.

Cue Bbucko's patented anti-sprawl rant:

I live about 1.5 miles from work, there's a great supermarket less than 1/2 mile from my apartment, and very nearly all my other needs can be met (nightlife, restaurants, clothing, pharmacy, doctor, banking, etc) within a radius of less than two miles. My bicycle or my two feet get me anywhere I need to go except for the very occasional (and prohibitively expensive) taxi.

I have lived this lifestyle since the day after my last day of High School, first in Boston, then New York, then in Europe, now finally in South Florida; the only exception was between 1998 (when I bought my first car at the age of 38) and 2004 (when I got rid of my second car, a Mini Cooper). My lifestyle choice at that time was influenced by a partner with whom I lived in Connecticut in the middle of nothing, to his liking at the expense of my own.

It's possible to live without a car. Though you may not care for it, for me living carless is all about freedom. Living off the grid (to the largest extent possible) requires a commitment to a very different life. But please don't tell me that you have no choice when, in fact, you do but find the alternative to living in congested suburban sprawl-hell somehow even less desirable. I doubt this distaste comes from any actual adult living experiences, however.

 

[B_talltpaguy]

~$2.80 a gallon here in Tampa, FL...

It's basically $2.65-$3.25 a gallon right now in the US, depending where you are.

 

[matticus201]

It's possible to live without a car. Though you may not care for it, for me living carless is all about freedom. Living off the grid (to the largest extent possible) requires a commitment to a very different life. But please don't tell me that you have no choice when, in fact, you do but find the alternative to living in congested suburban sprawl-hell somehow even less desirable. I doubt this distaste comes from any actual adult living experiences, however.

I don't do quite as well as you, Bbucko, but I'm doing pretty good. I live around 5 miles from work, walking distance to the nearest grocery store, and about 10 miles from the nightlife I frequent one or two times a week. I have a car, but made the choice to drive a very fuel efficient one. And I agree with you, it is possible to live without a car. Even in SUV fanatical Dallas. But the urban sprawl is still there, and I think a lot of people are comfortable with that. It'll be a painful choice for many to make, giving it up. We need to get more people on that bandwagon.

 

[matticus201]

~$2.80 a gallon here in Tampa, FL...

It's basically $2.65-$3.25 a gallon right now in the US, depending where you are.

talltpaguy, is that on regular unleaded?

 

[dandelion]

I didn't say fine them, I said to revoke their corporate charter and liquidate all US based assets to pay off the losses of the victims of their reckless disregard for their societal obligations.

It's the same thing that would happen to me personally, were I to commit a similar act. I would be sent to prison and barred from ever performing whatever act it was that led to the disaster ever again.

And then the government would have to hire someone else to drill wells, who would have just the same foul up rate. And they would use the same competitive tendering process to pick the next one, on the basis of the cheapest price. I dont know who is at fault here, but history says if its possible to foul up, then someone will.

Ok, as a first move Id suggest putting up tax on fuel in the US to european levels. Concentrates the mind on economising. He who pollutes most pays most. Makes oil shocks more survivable, because if the raw price of oil doubles, the pump price only goes up maybe 35%. US doesnt fancy this? Thats a surprise. Transfer the tax burden off something like income and on to fuel, so the individual is no worse off, but feels it in his wallet when he fills up.

 

[TomCat84]

~$2.80 a gallon here in Tampa, FL...

It's basically $2.65-$3.25 a gallon right now in the US, depending where you are.

I paid $3.11 the other day :frown1:

 

[HazelGod]

BP has been trying to buy out residents of the Alabama coastal areas for up to $5000 in exchange for giving up their right to sue.

The state AG has asked them to knock it off.

 

[B_talltpaguy]

^Stay classy BP!

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Every person and/or state affected by this needs to sue. It's not as if the oil companies don't have the money.

 

[B_talltpaguy]

Nice to see the newspapers are finally reporting what I had researched and found out 2-3 days ago!

Florida widens its oil spill watch | HeraldTribune.com

Florida widens its oil spill watch

Sarasota Hherald Tribune
By Dale White
Published: Tuesday, May 4, 2010 at 1:00 a.m.

Concerned that a drifting oil spill could cause "a major disaster" for Florida, Gov. Charlie Crist on Monday extended a state of emergency he declared for the Panhandle as far down the Gulf coast as Manatee and Sarasota counties.

What a PATHETIC excuse for a response from our Republican controlled state government! If all you can muster is less than 45 miles of coastline protection, why even bother?

The Florida Department of Environmental Protection reported that 16.5 miles of oil containment boom had been placed along the Panhandle, with another 3.5 miles expected to be completed by the end of the day. Workers will start placing another 11 miles of boom starting today. Another 11.3 miles of boom was on order.

The rig about 50 miles off the coast of Louisiana exploded April 20 and sank two days later. The cause remains under investigation.

Fishing is banned in 6,800 square miles of federal waters from the mouth of the Mississippi River to the Florida Panhandle.

Dana Powell, manager of the Paradise Inn in Pensacola Beach, fears what will happen to the Gulf Coast's staple industries, such as tourism and commercial fishing.

"Now when there's a hurricane, we know it's going to level things, devastate things, be a huge mess and it's going to take several years to clean up," she said. "But this? It's going to kill the wildlife, it's going to kill lifestyles -- the shrimpers, the fishermen, tourism. Who's going to come to an oil-covered beach?"

I am sooo glad I went to the beach for a few hours yesterday, and will do so 2-3 more times before the end of the week. Btw, the beaches were quite packed for a Monday by our standards. Apparently, I'm not the only person who realizes that soon enough, we won't have a beach to go to!

 

[B_talltpaguy]

David Kotok: $12.5 Billion Is Just The Start Of The Oil Cleanup Costs, And A Double-Dip Is Now Way More Likely

Joe Weisenthal | May. 2, 2010, 12:11 PM

Cumberland Advisors is out with some very gloomy comments about the economic ramifications of the Deepwater Horizon oil spill, and what it will cost. First he notes the ugliest case scenario:

This spew stoppage takes longer to reach a full closure; the subsequent cleanup may take a decade. The Gulf becomes a damaged sea for a generation. The oil slick leaks beyond the western Florida coast, enters the Gulfstream and reaches the eastern coast of the United States and beyond. Use your imagination for the rest of the damage. Monetary cost is now measured in the many hundreds of billions of dollars.

As for numbers:

Usually, the first estimates in any crises are too low. That is true here. 1000 barrels a day is now 5000, and some estimates of spillage are trending higher. No one knows exactly. The containment and boom mechanism is subject to weather cooperation as we can see this weekend. Soon we are entering the hurricane season. The thoughts of a storm stirring up the Gulf, hampering any cleanup or remediation drilling effort and creating a huge 10,000 square mile black stew is frightening to every professional in the business.

This will be a financial calamity for many firms, not just BP and its partners and service providers. Their liabilities are immense and must not be underestimated. The first estimate of $12.5 billion is only a starter.

Read more: David Kotok: $12.5 Billion Is Just The Start Of The Oil Cleanup Costs, And A Double-Dip Is Now Way More Likely