Staggering Hypocrisy

Discussion in 'Politics' started by sargon20, Feb 12, 2010.

  1. sargon20

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    Read it and Weep

    The bottom line, then, is that the crusade against health reform has relied, crucially, on utter hypocrisy: Republicans who hate Medicare, tried to slash Medicare in the past, and still aim to dismantle the program over time, have been scoring political points by denouncing proposals for modest cost savings — savings that are substantially smaller than the spending cuts buried in their own proposals.


    Op-Ed Columnist - Republicans and Medicare - NYTimes.com
    And why the invertebrate democrats can't slam this fact home is astonishing.
     
  2. B_Nick8

    B_Nick8 New Member

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    I have little to add because Krugman said it best:

    And if Democrats don’t get their act together and push the almost-completed reform across the goal line, this breathtaking act of staggering hypocrisy will succeed.
     
  3. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    It's not a question of why Democrats can't slam it... it's why they won't.
    Even Howard Dean is calling out the Dems, saying they have absolutely no backbone. The previous president used reconciliation 5 times to pass major bills. Democrats have yet to do it once.

    It's like they're too scared to seem pushy and domineering, trying so hard to pander that they can't get anything done. There's only so much you can do to try and be bipartisan. If none of the opposition wants to collaborate, do it yourself.
     
  4. Sergeant_Torpedo

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    It isn't the money grasping elected representatives who are the problem, rather the lobby system itself. Why have a universal right to health care within the US when you can allow the hard working poor to linger and die in agony (not shroud waving, it happens now) when you can "import" fit people from the third world to do all your shitty work.
     
  5. HazelGod

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    It's because the Democratic party wears a mask of hypocrisy in selling its image of having the interest of the people at heart.

    The truth is, DEM politicians are every bit as bought and paid for as their GOP counterparts...and their own re-elections are their top priority. Every one of them knows that voters aren't the key to re-election, sponsors are. Those deep pockets who can pay for PR machines and ad campaigns.

    Are there exceptions to this general truth? Sure. I happen to believe Russ Feingold is the most honorable man in federal office. But the majority of them are self-interested whores who sold out to moneyed interests long ago to get to where they are now, and who aren't about to bite the hand that's fed them so well.

    The reality is that our representative democracy stopped representing the people a long time ago.
     
  6. maxcok

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    I actually agreed with Dean when he said let the bill go down in flames. As it is now, it's mainly a pander to the middle class, doesn't cut costs nearly as much as it could, and is way too friendly to big insurance and big pharma. The notion that the Dems will come back a fix it later is absurd. Just like campaign finance reform, it will be whittled away until there's nothing left. Let the voters start screaming when nothing passes, and rightly blame the Republican obstructionists. Maybe that will get people's attention. Start the debate over, and this time shoot down the Teabaggers and other assorted crazies - like should have been done the first time. Don't stop until there's a public option.

    I've said it before, the Dems (my people) are mostly pussies. Furthermore, while the Repubs are precision goosestepping the Dems can't even get in a wiggly line. 'Herding cats' never rang so true as it does now with the Democrats.
     
  7. maxcok

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    Except for the distinction that the Dem's sponsors overall may not be quite as insidious as the Repub's, I couldn't agree more. Just thought you'd like to know that. :smile: Why I think nothing basically will change until there is meaningful campaign finance reform. Still don't have a clue how that could happen, short of a Constitutional Convention as some have suggested, but that seems even more unlikely than Congress policing itself. It's a self-perpetuating phenomenon.


    and there are still a few more good guys and gals there.
     
  8. b.c.

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    Maybe those in Washington from both sides of the aisle might do well to take note of what we did here in New Orleans (the election gone almost unnoticed by others, the day before the Super Bowl) to those who would presume to take our support for granted.

    Landrieu Takes Mayoral Seat in New Orleans - NYTimes.com
     
  9. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    I don't think we need to start over.
    The bill is never going to be perfect the first time. Social Security wasn't. Medicare certainly wasn't either. Even these measures had to be adjusted over time. We have enough ideas between the House & Senate versions of the bill to put together something that can get us started, then we can add additional changes as we go along. All we have to do is enter reconciliation. That way, we can put in some of the House bill ideas (like the Public Option) into the Senate version, or take the best ideas from both and make one complete bill. You also eliminate the threat of the filibuster, which means all 41 Republicans can vote "No" in the Senate and it can still pass. :wink:

    With 59 Democratic senators, we only need 51 of them. It would take 10 Senate Democrats to say no in order for this bill to not pass. There's supposed to be 8 fiscally conservative Dems in the Senate. Even if they all said no and convinced one of the other Democrats to side with them, that would end in a 50-50 tie and it would be up to Joe Biden to break it. And even though we all see him as a loose canon, just how loose is he? Most likely, he'd side with the Democrats here.

    This would be a better way to go at things now, instead of starting over from scratch. I would have been fine with this back in August, but now it's overdue. If we started over now, it'll be yet another fiasco in the Senate and I don't think anyone of us want to see that again.

    No argument here. They can be pretty weak.

    I can only wonder if we had more people like Howard Dean, Al Grayson and perhaps even Ed Schultz on the Senate floor? But I digress...
     
    #9 B_VinylBoy, Feb 12, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2010
  10. HazelGod

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    What? You elected the son of a previous mayor and brother of your sitting U.S. Senator?

    Dynastic politics at its worst. As Einstein observed, insanity is performing the same act over and over again but expecting a different result.
    Way to go, geniuses. :rolleyes:

    Louisiana's is among the last of the political systems I would ever hold up as an example of how things should be.
     
  11. maxcok

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    Whew, my sentiments exactly, HG. Glad you handled it.
     
  12. maxcok

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    No argument here.

    Here's where we start to diverge. I think 'over time' it's more likely to be weakened, esp. if the Repubs are in power, as eventually they will be. Those days of 'adjustment' I'm afraid are long gone. There was a much different political climate then, much more give and take. Now it's all give on one side, all take on the other.

    Should I hold my breath? Not to be sarcastic, I'll be surprised if anything comes out I can wholeheartedly support; unless it significantly lower costs, does not cater to big insurance and big pharma, includes a public option or similar competitive mechanism, and seriously addresses the needs of the working poor without requiring them to purchase a plan from an insurance company. Those are my criteria, and I admit, it's a high bar.

    Look, it's easy enough for political junkies like us to understand, but the public at large doesn't. All they know is they want something, and it's not happening. The public almost always blames the party in power, whether justified or not. Reconciliation will be seen as a dirty trick, and you can bet your sweet ass, the Pubs will sell it that way, even though they've done it plenty of times themselves. They don't have to tell the truth, they only have to get their folks to believe them. As we all know, their folks will believe just about any damn thing they're told. It's not a level playing field, and it's helpful to always remember that. I actually think if the bill failed due to Republican obstructionists, the general public might sit up and take notice for once. On the other hand, if they get what they consider a half-ass bill they will blame the Dems for pushing it through.

    If we can lay the blame on the Repubs where it mostly belongs, it gives Obama with his new found firebelly a chance to go back after the crazies whom he allowed to seize control of the debate and the coverage last August. I also think if it's framed right, it would be a great mid-term campaign issue. It's a chance to educate the public, and ultimately get a better plan. If we put through a better plan, once people get used to it they'll like it. And like Soc Sec and Medicare, they'll hang onto it like a dog on a bone, even though they don't understand it's 'big goverment' or 'socialized medicine'.

    What we need right now while Obama has a little momentum are some quick successes on simpler issues that the public can wrap their little minds around, and that would be good campaign issues for the Dems. Voters like to hear what you've done for them, not what you plan to do. Especially if you haven't done anything. Just thinking like a dumbass here.
    Or maybe even as president, when we had the chance. But I digress . . .


    p.s. I appreciate your detailed explanation of the process, but if that's soley for my benefit, you can skip it in the future. :wink:
     
    #12 maxcok, Feb 12, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2010
  13. sargon20

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    I may be an idiot for hoping they have more of the interest of the people at heart than the Dark Side. But really cable news has really finished America off as a thriving democracy voting with the facts and not spoon fed propaganda by 20-30 something 'jornalistists' who have spent zero time earning there way to the chair.

    If Trinity wants to start over you KNOW it's the wrong thing. Of course they want to start over....start over and gut the entire effort.
     
  14. B_Nick4444

    B_Nick4444 New Member

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    oh, man!

    the light begins to shine (even on LPSG)

    think I'm gonna cry ...
     
  15. maxcok

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    You're right on that first bit (not the idiot part) I should have said that too. Right on the second bit too.
    What if we call their bluff and make em filibuster? Provided it's an old timey filibuster, where they actually have to have a majority in the chamber (not talk to an empty room and C-Span). Thoughts?
     
  16. b.c.

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    Well perhaps you'd hold up as an example of "how things should be" the election of the half wit son of a previous president who didn't know his ass from a hole in the wall (the former or the latter). Given this and other such events of it's kind nationwide I'd say Louisiana is in fuckin' good company, pal.

    Your stereotypical mischaracterizations aside, the point of my post (and the referenced article) was that we opted to put aside the usual bullshit differences in the hopes of a better way for us as a whole, by ignoring the pandering and bullshit of those who try to play on our differences...who’d use hate based rhetoric and phony issues to divide and conquer. Besides which, maybe we saw Mitch as the best candidate to get the job done.

    So fuckin' yes, maybe this is a message worth considering. Too bad you didn’t get it. Or couldn’t. Who gives a fuck?

    Also, maybe the point of my post was to suggest that the undoing of the Democratic Party in Washington will be too much of a willingness to try to entertain the wants of those who will NEVER support Obama, while at the same time neglecting the mandate given them by those who put them in office.

    Trying to satisfy the right, whose sole purpose is to oppose all that the Obama administration hopes to accomplish is a wasted effort. They will never be satisfied.

    As I said before, fuck them. BTW, while I'm at it, fuck you too.
     
    #16 b.c., Feb 12, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2010
  17. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    Most libs will actually agree with HG on various levels. They have no problem reflecting on their own and acknowledging problems when they see it. But don't worry, most people here STILL don't agree with you. Because what YOU represent is even worse than what the Democrats are going through.

    Watching you cheer HG's comment is the equivalent of watching Howard Dean and John McCain agree on something. When they both said "kill the bill and start over" last year, it was for two ENTIRELY different reasons. Someone as daft as you wouldn't be able to see it, as you embrace the headline and celebrate prematurely.

    Nothing has changed, and you're still an ass and a bigot. You cry alone.
     
    #17 B_VinylBoy, Feb 12, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2010
  18. B_Nick4444

    B_Nick4444 New Member

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    as I said, the light is just beginning to shine for some of you

    from the posts I've seen, there's precious little intelligence or conceptualization on the left, so I would not expect a wellspring surge of epiphanies

    but it looks like some of you are on the way ...
    :beerchug2:
     
  19. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    Swing & a miss NickySixxy...
    Even if HG is criticizing democrats, much to your wanking delight, he still thinks you're an idiot. As do I. And many others. The light he sees is NOT the one you see. The sooner you realize this, the quicker you'll STFU and go back into the closet you crawled out of.

    Pun very much intended. :rolleyes:
     
  20. MalakingTiti

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    Both parties are full of shit. Its just that the Democrats, on this issue anyway, are a little less full of shit.
     
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