Steve Irwin; What a crock!

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mindseye: Now you're arguing for my side -- that it takes a certain area of expertise to be able to make this judgement and that people who lack that expertise aren't qualified to do so.

Here are some specific examples of information that Steve Irwin possesses but that you lack:

  • How fast can this crocodile move?
  • How fast are my reflexes?
  • How high can this crocodile jump?
  • How does this crocodile respond when being fed?
  • Has this crocodile ever responded in an unexpected way to being fed?
  • How well-trained is this crocodile?
  • How secure is my grip on Bob?
  • How fast can the crew off-camera respond to something unexpected?

What specific information ("information", not emotion, was the word you used -- although the example you gave was of a feeling) do I lack by not being a parent?
 
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Tender: ***How fast can this crocodile move?

Croc can move faster than people.
thats how they kill and eat people and other animals lol they can move quickly. how fast do they eat. well id venture an ignorant guess. he probably could eat baby in one swallow.

***How fast are my reflexes?

'my' reflexes speed depends on the floor surface, slick or wet ect. the position im standing in, objects or babies i might be holding at the time or whether i am taken off guard. if the croc is quick enough my reflexes will be worthless with him on top of me eating JR.

***How high can this crocodile jump?

croc can knock him over in 1 second flat if he decides too. well then he doesnt have to jump does he?
besides that id venture they can jump pretty well, by using their tails to push off the floor, very muscular.

***How does this crocodile respond when being fed?

response when being fed? oh, you mean im being fed the baby! the q is. how does the croc know the difference between a chicken and a baby. generally when Irwin is carrying treats, crocy gets to eat them lol.

***Has this crocodile ever responded in an unexpected way to being fed?

well there could be a first time.
has croc ever been tempted with infant meat?

***How well-trained is this crocodile?

well trained animals still should not be trusted with a baby.

***How secure is my grip on Bob?

grip may be unsecured by crocs movements. by him slipping on damp floor. or baby wiggles. ect.

***How fast can the crew off-camera respond to something unexpected?

why rely on the crew to save my kid from a careless danger i put him in. note. media reflexes are slow. they tape first. then go 'oh, maybe we should help!'

Tender
 
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jerkin4-10: ***how fast can a croc move?
faster than a guy holding and safely protecting a baby...thats for damn sure...EDGE CROC
***surfaces and traction...
definite edge to the crock...any shoes this side of cleats [which he WASNT wearing] and no match for the crocs feet with claws...EDGE CROC
***jumping crocs...
crocs dont jump...they lunge or leap...certainly faster than a human can react...EDGE CROC
***croc responds to being fed?
HUNGRILY...kinda the pavlogs dog thing...obviously this was feeding time and the croc was ready to eat
***has this croc responded..
thats not part of the equasion..c-previous post re: wild animal
***trained croc?
this is an oxy-moron...think about it...thunderous silence...military intelligence..*L*
***how secure is my grip on bob...
what in the world does this have to do with anything...no matter what your grip on bob is...it is no match for the crocs...EDGE CROC
***how fast camera crew...
unless the camera crew has a BIG GUN...it wouldnt matter how fast anyone reacted...to save the tender babys life...[isnt that the point?]
mindseye...now youve played into MY hand...
and emotion...is a part of this life my friend...including making intelligent decisions...
 
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Tender: ***military intelligence***


:D

i liked the big gun idea too.
maybe random audience members should have them just in case. you know might need them from different angles while the media is filming, and Irwin is commanding the croc from underneath him :D
and mommy is crying sadly 'how could this have ever happened. i cant beleive it. little Bob is gone!'


then they would have to send the croc into some fancy research place to study its behavior. gotta find out why the croc suddenly turned vicious for seemingly no reason......probably fund it with tax dollars....

hey, i know! why dont they ship the croc to Iraq!! i could think of lots of uses for a croc like that over there!
Commander Croc!
:-X wow i better shut now. ;D

Tender
 
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gigantikok: (Please don't skip over this because it is long.)

Wow. Ok, I should just stop responding to this thread, but I am too stubborn by nature to give up.

First off I'll say that your tendencies to sarcastically distort the facts in an argument to support your viewpoints is really starting to piss me off, Tender. You don't know what you are talking about, you don't know anything about crocodiles.

Unlike Tender and Jerkin, who continue to talk out their asses, I actually did SOME RESEARCH. Interesting concept, eh? Interesting actually getting FACTS to support your arguments. I know it sounds crazy but bare with me and check out my FACTS:

"Similarly to sharks, crocs tend to attack for reasons of defense of their territory or themselves, or by accident - as human flesh is not their preferred choice. Some, however, will do it simply out of aggression, most likely the Estaurine.

If a croc attacks you, you are most likely to be held in its vice-like jaw whilst it spins over and over disorientating the victim until death occurs by drowning or blood loss. This process is known as the death roll."(http://www.gapmap.co.uk/Stay Healthy/Animals/Animals.html)

NOTICE how this article, and almost any other info I've pulled up on Crocodiles, specifies that they only attack for defensive reasons and that they do not prefer the taste of human flesh i.e. BABIES. They bite, they don't swallow. Steve Irwin knows this, you don't. And although it says that SOME will do it simply out of aggression, Steve Irwin knows every single croc in his zoo and has handled them personally. He has the ability to control the situation because of the knowledge HE HAS.

I went to another web site. It may be vague, but it is at least factually supported:

"What kinds of dangerous or poisonous animals live there (Australia) and about how many people per year get killed by them?
Katrina L., age 10, North Dakota

(I cut down the full answer for space issues)
There are crocodiles in northern Australia. They are very dangerous. One or two people a year get killed by crocodiles."
(http://www.scholastic.com/olympicgames/penpals/qa.htm)

So, not only have we learned, class, that crocodiles tend to attack defensively and do not like the taste of human flesh; we have also learned that deaths per crocodile a year in Australia are minuscule at best. This points to the conclusion that most crocodiles are not very aggressive, do not hunt for human flesh and babies, and do not kill many people a year.

And Steve Irwin knows a bizillion more things about crocodiles then you do.

And just because I am not a parent doesn't mean I can't have an opinion. You can't control people, Jerkin, you can force them to handle their children in any certain way.

*whew* Done.
 
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mindseye: Although each of my questions referenced a specific crocodile, you answered with answers that referenced crocodiles in general, as if all crocodiles are interchangeable.

And yet, if I tried arguing that all cars, all highways, all drivers were interchangeable, you'd protest.

You both have argued that even though this particular crocodile was well-behaved and responded exactly as Steve Irwin predicted, that there's always "a first time for everything".

And yet, if I tried arguing that you shouldn't drive with children in tow because even if you're a safe driver, there's always a first time for everything, you'd protest.

You argued that since I wasn't a parent myself that I lacked the "information" necessary to see how grave Irwin's actions were -- and yet, despite having never worked with a crocodile yourself, you proceeded to demonstrate what an expert you are nevertheless in that area. Since you're not gracious enough to acknowledge that Irwin might have had a better grasp of that situation than you do, I don't think it's possible to move forward on this.
 
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gigantikok: All the facts I have brought up have been in reference to the Australian Croc.

Here is one more fact about how fast they run:

"This is another popular question, and true to form it generates enough popular myth and misconceptions to fill the stomach of a large Deinosuchus. Running crocodiles evoke images of slavering reptiles chasing people down for lunch, and there are some wild figures that are often quoted - speeds over 40 mph are regularly quoted by some books, television documentaries and enthusiastic tour-guides. Don't be misled! Crocodiles have unique ways of getting around, but let's be realistic and look at this properly.

The truth is, if you see a crocodile running towards you then it's easy enough to evade. It's when you don't see it coming that you're in danger! A crocodile's greatest strength is not its endurance and stamina on land, but it's ability to launch a surprise attack when you're least expecting it. In other words, crocodiles cannot afford to give their prey the chance to flee - fleeing prey (on land at least) is normally dinner lost. "

I can easily make the assumption that even though Steve Irwin is holding a baby, he knows how to dodge and avoid a crocodile's "easily evadeable" attack. He was not going to be taken on by surprise that's for sure. So, crocodiles are also not super lizards with lightning fast moves and reflexs, as Tender and Jerkin like to assume they are.

(http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/herpetology/brittoncrocs/cbd-faq-q4.htm)
 
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jerkin4-10: well..GIG...*taking gloves off...something youll regret* better to talk out of my ass...than be one...and your research is stupid...because it doesnt take into consideration 'the child'...human meat...its feeding time you ignorant slut...the un-intelligent croc is used to eating what the guy has in his hands...assuming ANYTHING in his hands IS food...HELLO...i would guess none of you are athletes..and yes it has something to do with it...ever run with a football?...moving and dodging other people?...you just arent as quick and mobile holding that football are ya there big dud?...HELL NO!...try jumping a fence with something in your hands... well...even try to run from something in fear..whats you FIRST instinct???anyone???GIG mr reasearch??? thats right...you DROP what your carrying, isnt it?...i do not care about your stupid research...what might happen...crocs dont like human meat...defensive attacks...the guy took a baby...in one hand...and food in the other...into a pen...to feed an WILD, unpredictable preditory animal...at FEEDING TIME...that is careless...PERIOD!...thats the root of the stupidity here...and IF you argue that...your an idiot...PERIOD!
 
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gigantikok: Jerkin, a lot of times I agree with you politically, so I hate to knock you down.  However, you've lost.

He won't drop what he is carrying because the article specifies that crocodiles are only good at surprise attacks. That is the only way they catch their prey. They always fail with head on attacks because the last link I provided you with, which you will probably NOT go visit, states that crocodiles can hardly move as fast as a healthy adult (14-12mph). Irwin is healthy, and knows when and how to expect an attack... whether or not he has a baby in his right hand.

You don't "care" about my research because you know you are wrong, period.  People who ignore research and cling to unfounded assumptions and  preconcieved judgements are people who know they are wrong but are not man enough to admit it.

SO what will it be?  Be a man or cling to your dying argument?
 
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jerkin4-10: feel the same way about you...i respect alot of the things you say politically as well...but heres where we differ...i AM a man...and a father...very successful and respected as both...and would compare credentials with you anytime...where you are sadly lacking in that department is...'judgement'...a man...an intelligent man...whether stats say he can out run an alligator or not...would NEVER put his child in the potential of harms way...all kinds of things could happen...look at my previous post where i address and debunk ALL of mindseyes responses...and you need to be a man and admit...it was poor judgement on his part to take a living breathing child in a feeding pen with preditory animals...if you dont...YOUR judgement is needs adjusting...PERIOD...PERIOD...

on a personal note...im so angry right now...im going to get my tennis shoes on and go on a run...or ill never be able to go to sleep...
 

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One possible outcome of the other days' activities in the croc pen:

UPI - Australia
A small gallery of adults, teens and children gasped in horror as Steve's words to his son were recorded for posterity: "Crikey, Bobby, you don't have a thing to worry about with this stupid croc! Why he could only get to you if I were to drop you...Whoops!"

The boy's funeral arrangements will be announced after the crocodile has a bowel movement.
 
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jerkin4-10: thanx pecker you always put things in perspective with your priceless humour... :)
 
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gigantikok: [quote author=jerkin4-10 link=board=99;num=1073321472;start=40#49 date=01/10/04 at 20:34:11]feel the same way about you...i respect alot of the things you say politically as well...but heres where we differ...i AM a man...and a father...very successful and respected as both...and would compare credentials with you anytime...where you are sadly lacking in that department is...'judgement'...a man...an intelligent man...whether stats say he can out run an alligator or not...would NEVER put his child in the potential of harms way...all kinds of things could happen...look at my previous post where i address and debunk ALL of mindseyes responses...and you need to be a man and admit...it was poor judgement on his part to take a living breathing child in a feeding pen with preditory animals...if you dont...YOUR judgement is needs adjusting...PERIOD...PERIOD...

on a personal note...im so angry right now...im going to get my tennis shoes on and go on a run...or ill never be able to go to sleep...[/quote]
How very insulting to imply that I am not a man, or less of a man then you. And how very ignorant to imply that because you have a family, or because you are more successful then me, that your (unfound and unresearched) opinion is automatically justified. You didn't address or debunk ANY of the questions mindseye asked because you:

a) Don't know shit about crocs
b) Didn't do any research on the topic we were arguing

You can believe whatever you want, and you can wrap yourself up in whatever bullshit you want to, but deep down that's all it is... bullshit. Anyway go punch a wall, or something, because I know you are wrong and you have proven to anyone observing this thread that you are wrong too.

Oh, and Jesus, lighten up, dude. At this rate you are going to pop a vein in your head and die in the next few years. It's just an argument, not the end of the world.
 
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jerkin4-10: [quote author=gigantikok link=board=99;num=1073321472;start=40#48 date=01/10/04 at 20:15:54] People who ignore research and cling to unfounded assumptions and  preconcieved judgements are people who know they are wrong but are not man enough to admit it.

SO what will it be?  Be a man or cling to your dying argument?
[/quote]

and thats not an insult to me?...you little twerp...ill give you some credentials...i used to work on ranches in oklahoma...hardly with preditory animals...cows..horses even pigs...docile [for the most part] animals...many times ive seen guys get kicked...trampled or upended by these non-preditory animals...we arent even talking about an animal who whould kill you for food...and animal which is MUCH more dangerous than a pig...healthy, trained, athletic, young guys getting run over and injured by a big 400 pound pig...my father in law, [who raised pigs for a living, trained professional if you will] was chased, run over and mauled by a big boar hog and had to get vertibrea in his neck fused...by a fucking pig...you PET pigs...he was trained too...but...he slipped...THE UNEXPECTED... something you refuse to get through your head...you know murphys law...you are obviously learned [learn-ed] been to school...have intelligence...but let me tell you something son...ill take real life experience over a book anytime...i have been in the 'field' and conducted my own experiments of sorts...through experience with animals MUCH less dangerous than crocs...and i'd bet on the croc...
 
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gigantikok: A PIG IS NOT THE SAME AS A CROCODILE, YOU DIPSHIT!!!! A FARM IS NOT THE SAME AS AUSTRALIA! COMPLETELY DIFFERENT HABITATS, COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ANIMALS AND BEHAVIORS!!! That's like saying a monkey behaves the same way a chicken does. Like saying a plane works the same way a Go Kart does!!! Jeez.

God you frustrate me. I'm through with this argument. At least through with you, you're just making yourself look like a complete idiot now. In fact, this is just degenerating into a mud slinging contest, so without further adue... Farewell. You can have the almighty last word, Great Jerkin, if you so please.
 
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Ineligible: It's worth noting that Steve Irwin is a showman. He became well-known in the US long before he was known in his native land; and he named his small private zoo "Australia Zoo", a big name obviously designed to lure overseas tourists (it still does not rank highly in local lists of attractions). I suspect his activity with his child had an element of showmanship in it. That said, I think he underestimated the reaction it would get.

I believe it was a foolish thing to do, and I think his argument of introducing his child to handling animals doesn't hold much water.

That said, as a father who was indeed present at the birth of at least one daughter (the other was too quick), etc, I don't believe children should be kept in cotton-wool, and I feel society has gone too far in its "safety first" attitude. I think Irwin made an error of judgement, brought on by the temptations of showmanship. However, I have thrown my children up and down when they were young, something they loved but would horrify some self-appointed child welfare specialists. It's important that children be allowed to play in mud. It's important, as they get older, that they be allowed to climb trees. As they get older again, it's important to let them go places and do things by themselves, even though these all carry some risk.

There needs to be a balance between safety and risk. Too much of either is harmful, but the proper point of balance will often be a matter of dispute.
 
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jerkin4-10: the thing you fail to acknowledge you egghead...is not habitat...not the type of animal...its the fucking unpredictiblily of the WILD animal...everything has tendencies...lemme ask you a question...what about the reseach papers that were never written because the animal didnt follow the predicted guidelines and the guy is under a log somewhere...not everything can be proven in a damn research paper...your arguments are ALL based on what somebody else says the croc SHOULD do...and statistics of how fast a human can run and a healthy human SHOULD be able to outrun a croc...well...in perfect conditions...a track...maybe so...but where they were...i brought up the pigs to show the UNPREDICTIBILITY factor...you arent even taking in to consideration...ive live almost my whole life around animals and spent alot of times on ranches and farms, working with animals...those are my credentials..
not just reading a book and doing some research to PROVE a point...you need to get outta your mom and dads basement into the REAL world...IM DONE
 
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voltern: :mad: H i been hanging around this site for a long time. This is the first time i think i ever got pissed off enought to speak my mind. I must say,, alot of you are a real work of art. I was born and raised on a farm and still there today. From a few days after i was born my mom would wrap me up in a blanket on a hay bale in the barn while she milked the cows and feed them. Mom and dad didnt have the money for a babbysitter or a nanny as so many of you privileged. I went to work with them. At any time a 2000 pund cow could have fell on me and killed me. i layed in a basket at the end of the feild while they worked their. but they always had one eye on me at all times. Funny thought at a very early age i could look at an animal and tell witch one were good and bad as i called them. at two i was was running around all of them and knew what to go near and what to stay from. Anyway if something were to happen to me i would be proud to have steve and terry to raise my son. I know he would be safe with them. But really you people are a joke. you want to bitch about somthing going on around the world when you do not even have the slightest idea what going on in your own back yard. Worry about the usa, Because the Biggest, nastyest, meanest, pedator in the world is right here in the states it is called the ( human animal ). Now there bad. they bare there young and mutilate their young and throw it in a dumpster. if the young cry to much the father shakes it to death and throws it away. If it gets hurt they blame it on another animal. Half the time they have no idea where the kid is if it lives that long. then as it gets older it joins other kids and then it is called a gang. Really it is a pack of wolfs runing around robbing, killing, rapeing and killing. they kill for the fun of it. You call regular animals wild, Just to repeat steve and terry should i die please please raise my son i trust you. I hope you get the jest of this i'm not to good at putting words to paper.
 

MASSIVEPKGO_CHUCK

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So I see yet another reply from me is now warranted yet again. GIGS, Mindseye, you still refuse to concede the danger that was posed with Irwin's kid, now don't you? ??? :mad:

It is true that on land by and large the crocodilian is not a fast moving animal. However that does not mean that in close up quarters such as the holding pen, and the grassy slope where all this happened he could not have overtaken Irwin, and junior. :p


Oh, and you really expect me to believe that some dogs re different than crocs? What, you never heard of a
pit bull? Or even a rottweiller? There's two perfect examples we've almost been convinced that they can bedomesticated ,yet we read about attacks by these two very same breeds.

Now, I will go off on one] tangent here, and one only. Last night I watched the movie,The Edge, and in it was a bear that I remembered had been trained almost to domesticality. That meaning, he was a grizzly that was recalled by Anthony Hopkins as being very cooperative, and posing no danger to him or anyone. In Fact, he even played with his owner,  and the owner emerged unscathed.

GIGS, Mindseye, don't you two even dare to try and capitalize on this; it was one time out of a thousand for this noe. Consenquently, the bear has passed on.

Seriously you two, why don't you stop this bullshit about how harmless crocs are, and try to look upon this as it was played out; careless, and no excuse for it no matter what!! :mad:

That's all I'm going to say for the moment.


Oh, and by the way, GIGS, when you mentioned the michael part, I though you were refering to Mindseye. But even so about Wacko Jacko, NO!!! I will not lay off of him neither! This is the second time in a row to be accused of molesting boys, and the evidence seem to be climbing!

'Nuff Said!!!