Stimulus, clunkers, healthcare, programs et al

Discussion in 'Politics' started by faceking, Aug 4, 2009.

  1. faceking

    faceking Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2004
    Messages:
    7,535
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    110
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Mavs, NOR * CAL
  2. B_Nick4444

    B_Nick4444 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2007
    Messages:
    7,002
    Likes Received:
    12
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    yes, Obama (and legion of Obamites), where is the money to come from?
     
  3. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    10,516
    Likes Received:
    7
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Boston, MA / New York, NY
    You're too busy looking for birth certificates. Find that first, and then we can talk about money. :rolleyes:
     
  4. slurper_la

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2008
    Messages:
    5,378
    Albums:
    2
    Likes Received:
    726
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Los Angeles (CA, US)
    Ford had a 2.4% increase in sales for the month of June; 1.9% of that in the last two weeks as a direct result of the CARS program. The highest increase in monthly sales since 2003.

    GM dealers had to stall sales because they ran out of inventory.

    Gee - I wonder if the all the good of putting all those auto workers back to work to produce cars might offset the stimulus of the CARS program with payroll taxes - not to mention sales taxes, profits on the cars etc?

    Home sales are up for the 3rd month in a row - gee, fancy that, a stimulus plan that's actually stimulating the economy.
     
  5. Flashy

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2007
    Messages:
    8,097
    Likes Received:
    3
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    at home
    well, this is certainly a rosy outlook...let us look at it a bit closer.

    1. Ford, was the only US Automaker that did *NOT* accept a bailout.

    2. putting all those "auto workers back to work" is not happening. You are a complete liar. (or incompetent and uninformed). the only ones going "back" to work, are workers that were furloughed during the bankruptcy who have re-entered the workforce once factory operations continued at places that had been shut during bankruptcy proceedings. Most auto industry jobs that have been cut are never coming back

    GM, at the moment, has 54,000 factory workers...it plans on ending this year with *40,000*...that would be 14,000 less, wouldn't it?

    and it will get worse...GM's stated in June that it "would close 15 factories employing 22,000 workers by the end of 2012."

    GM "ran out of inventory" because certain factories have been shut while in bankruptcy

    3. As for the rosy predictions by GM, that "Results of this special attrition program will help GM lower its employment cost and close the competitive gap with Japanese automakers that have U.S. factories" stated by Diana Tremblay, vice president of labor relations, you might want to consider this:

    Of the top 10 cars sold during the cash for clunkers program so far,

    you may notice: 5 are Japanese, 1 is South Korean, 4 are American.

    of the American brands, Ford, the only company that did not take the bailout money has two of the top 10 brands.


    ----

    The Top Ten Cash for Clunkers Trade-Ins:

    1. 1998 Ford Explorer

    2. 1997 Ford Explorer

    3. 1996 Ford Explorer

    4. 1999 Ford Explorer

    5. Jeep Grand Cherokee

    6. Jeep Cherokee

    7. 1995 Ford Explorer

    8. 1994 Ford Explorer

    9. 1997 Ford Windstar

    10. 1999 Dodge Caravan


    ---


    So, not only that, but the Top 10 brands being traded in and *JUNKED* are *AMERICAN* cars...


    and 6 of the Top 10 cars being *BOUGHT* are *FOREIGN* cars...so far, for the first half (80,000 cars) of the 157,000 that have been sold, and strangely, the DOT will not release the information...



    what a great idea....


    on top of that, the american taxpayer, is paying other americans, to effectively trade in their old american cars, for a majority of new foreign cars, to keep american and foreign workers employed...


    and all those "sales taxes and profits", are being provided, by taking money from other americans, adding more debt, and giving it, by extension to state governments and domestic and foreign auto companies



    and while GM is busy slashing jobs here over he next 3 years, they are planning on building the largest GM factory... *IN CHINA*


    Yes, this makes perfect sense...every american gives $10 (3 billion total), a couple hundred thousand people who would have waited a year or two to buy that new car, now get a 3500-4500 discount thanks to everybody else, and the american auto industry, which have been sucking down tens of billions for months, get to be happy, and prolong their death by another few years, allowing more time for them to milk the taxpayers.





    4. Before you get all hysterical about the home sales being up for the "third month in a row", you might want to get your figures straight.


    *Pending* home sales are up for the *5th* month in a row, not the *3rd*


    *HOWEVER* prices are still *PLUMMETING*. these are speculators coming in.


    on top of that, *OVERALL* sales are still down 75%.



    of course it was cute how you did not mention these facts:


    A. Personal Income fell worse than it has in four years, the drop was 1.3%, which was worse than forecasts.


    B. Consumer bankruptcy filings rose 8.7%, highest total since October 2005


    C. the recession has been easing for months, but a recovery is nowhere in sight and inflation will appear before a recovery does.






    you might want to examine the truth before you put on the party hats. :rolleyes:
















     
  6. transformer_99

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2006
    Messages:
    2,466
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    I want to see the day when Obama or the next Prez produces the fuzzy math and announces that all of this is square ?
     
  7. D_Tully Tunnelrat

    D_Tully Tunnelrat New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2004
    Messages:
    1,168
    Likes Received:
    1
    Well, we were all thinking about asking you to pony up...

    Seriously, when you take a look at Fed $$, I always start with the military. Where's the outrage over DOD spending, which is officially $636B, only $140B behind the dreaded, and vilified "stimulus" package. Unofficially the DOD budget is probably greater than than than the stimulus $$. And what's worse it's an expense that goes up every year. In the past it's been been thinly disguised socialism, the kind Republicans love. Now, no one, liberal or conservative, whatever those two badges might have meant in past regarding fiscal sanity, are at all concerned about military spending at present. If our military $$ were on a par with Germany's it'd be $140B; more than $500B less. That's real money with a B.

    Back to your question... it's all answerable in three letters VAT. It's really ironic that in a period where even the Scandinavians are realizing that when the state's spending becomes greater than 30% of GDP, the economy grows more slowly: from 3% to 1.5% annually. I guess our guys did not get that memo.

    BTW - did you read about Geithner's expletive filled rant to the FDIC, and other reg agencies today? I think there's a bit of pressure to bring down the deficit from above, but does the Fed have any choice other than monitoring the debt, esp. if you give it more powers, and increase social programs?
     
  8. sargon20

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    11,390
    Likes Received:
    2,130
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Atlantis

    Explain WHY THE FUCK we should care? Bush NEVER EVER cared about where the money was gonna come from for his wars and tax cuts.


    .............Dick Cheney says to O'Neill, "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter. We won the midterm elections. Our due is another big tax cut."

    http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/jan-june04/loyalty_01-15.html


    Jesus how much CLEARER do we need to be? They don't fuckin matter.
     
  9. vince

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2007
    Messages:
    14,785
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    540
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Asia
    Are you serious? I hope you are joking.
     
  10. Notaguru2

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2008
    Messages:
    1,541
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Charleston, SC

    I'm not sure where they are, but I know where a CA deficit counter is. :biggrin1:
     
  11. AllHazzardi

    AllHazzardi Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2004
    Messages:
    339
    Albums:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Palm Springs, California
    You know, I'm curious, if the popularity of the program is such a problem for the current supply, why not use a lottery system to distribute a limited number of vouchers per time span? This would slow the loss of funds from the bank, giving more time to observe the actual impact this is having. The program sounds great on the outer level, but my question is; If this is being called a "Bail-out for the people", why are the car dealers getting lots of money, and the customers end up spending more money than they planned? Energy in the economy is a good thing, but I don't think energy in the car dealing market(given these companies have not had the best history of using the best, most efficient, or cleanest available technology of the time) is worth slicing money out from things like alternative energy. Being able to apply alternative energy more effectively would result in more energy efficient, cleaner vehicles which possess the same capacity for work as their less efficient counterparts. Cutting money from research like this is probably not the best choice when it comes to the longer view.

    Honestly, however, I'm not worried. I feel a change in the winds, and I'm not talking about the Economy.
     
  12. midlifebear

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,908
    Likes Received:
    11
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Nevada, Buenos Aires, and Barçelona
    I have no idea where the Cash for Clunkers comes from. Similarly, I bought a hundred thousand shares of Ford last year when it was $1 a share. Even if it rose .25 cents a share to $1.25, selling short would have made plenty of sense. But yesterday I dumped it all for $8.01 a share. Now tell me, where did all THAT money come from. Ford, at $8.00 a share is way overvalued. So my little windfall from parking a hundred grand with Ford via my Schwab account for exactly one year will cost me some extra capital gains tax next April 15th. But I find it rather difficult to complain about paying taxes to the US government on what, in my opinion, is basically "found" money. I can't wrap my mind around the idea that my seven fold profit is real; even though my cash reserves account indicates that it's there. Again, the stock market working with smoke and mirrors.
     
  13. Skull Mason

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2006
    Messages:
    3,101
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    23
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dirty Jersey
    I hope all of this stuff really works out. But I have a question, if everyone goes out and buys a car now with this new program, what happens to the automotive industry in a year or two when everyone has a car?
     
  14. mynameisnobody

    mynameisnobody New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    109
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    CT, USA
    I imagine they're counting on it coming from China. Actually, any foreign buyer will do.

    The problem is that when bonds are offered at auction to international buyers, something has to be offered to make the purchase worthwhile. That something is interest. As federal debt increases and revenues tank, the risk of default grows (or at least buyers think it does, which comes to the same thing). To attract buyers willing to run that risk, interest rates have to rise. Thus one has simultaneous recession and runaway inflation, even when nobody in America is buying anything.
     
  15. D_Stanford Dedwillie III

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2008
    Messages:
    96
    Likes Received:
    0

    If you sold 100,000 shares for $8.01 per share, somebody was on the other side of the trade ponying up $801,000.00 from his or her cash reserves.

    It wasn't 'found' money; it was 'real' money from another investor.

    Congrats on the 7-bagger.:smile:

    Squiggle
     
  16. D_Stanford Dedwillie III

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2008
    Messages:
    96
    Likes Received:
    0
    Also, the above optimistic poster didn't mention that the cash for clunkers program is also murdering body shops, mechanics, Midas, Pep Boys, et al.
     
  17. D_Tully Tunnelrat

    D_Tully Tunnelrat New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2004
    Messages:
    1,168
    Likes Received:
    1
    They'll sell less cars. This is also the prognosis in Germany where a similar program is in place. There volume has gone from 2.8M to 3.2-3.4M vehicle sales per year. VW announced yesterday that German vehicle sales will drop back to 2.8M next year. It will be the same for US car sales. So, it's only a temporary boost. Also as Flash points out, we're replacing aging Detroit steel with cars from anywhere, so it's not necessarily US workers who are benefiting from your tax dollars.
     
  18. faceking

    faceking Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2004
    Messages:
    7,535
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    110
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Mavs, NOR * CAL
     
  19. Flashy

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2007
    Messages:
    8,097
    Likes Received:
    3
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    at home
    The parading of the "success" of the clunkers program is really rather bizarre to me...the clunkers program is simply another political payoff to the automakers, autounions and autoparts folks

    I mean seriously...how can you not categorize this program as a "success"...

    hmmmm... the government offers free money to people...hurry up! Get the free money while its free...will anyone respond? What? Lo and behold...SUCCESS!!!! They are taking the free money! Oh joy!

    What is most absurd, about this whole swindle, are the folks who are deeming this program a "success" and they are measuring it, by the fact that so far, 180,000 consumers, have said..."YES! after an agonizing struggle and deliberation, i *WILL* take the free money! Fine, government, are you happy?"

    Success!!!! NewsFlash............Obama led-government determines conclusively that if you offer people free money, they will in all likelihood, take it!

    Who would have ever thought we would reach the point in america, when people accepting free money was deemed some kind of "success".

    absurd
     
  20. Randll86

    Verified Gold Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2006
    Messages:
    602
    Albums:
    5
    Likes Received:
    733
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Tampa (FL, US)
    Verified:
    Photo
Draft saved Draft deleted