Straight friend's internalized homophobia

D_Martin van Burden

Account Disabled
Joined
Oct 6, 2002
Posts
3,229
Media
0
Likes
41
Points
258
I think Reba is right too, but I think we're giving 18-year-olds a little too much credit. It was at that time that my sexual orientation was still very much in flux; I was just getting out there and sowing some wild oats. Most people at that age could probably tell you what feels physically good, but can't say all that much about where they emotionally stand in their relationships let alone have a comprehensive grasp of their multifaceted attractions to others.

Those years are designed to help you start answering some of those questions. While I'm well-aware that there are some people out there who know very early on how they swing sexually, others don't pick it up until later in life. Or they know but deny it. Or they don't know and can't figure it out. Or they know but think that the artificial labels we put on sexuality aren't good enough.

Maybe your friend thought you two were on the same wavelength -- that you could get off with each other as well as get off with the ladies. Sure, it's insensitive to do it in bed. But how else are you going to figure out, yo, are you bi or are you just outright gay?
 

B_Hung Jon

Loved Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Posts
4,124
Media
0
Likes
535
Points
193
Location
Los Angeles, California
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
I think Reba is right too, but I think we're giving 18-year-olds a little too much credit. It was at that time that my sexual orientation was still very much in flux; I was just getting out there and sowing some wild oats. Most people at that age could probably tell you what feels physically good, but can't say all that much about where they emotionally stand in their relationships let alone have a comprehensive grasp of their multifaceted attractions to others.

Those years are designed to help you start answering some of those questions. While I'm well-aware that there are some people out there who know very early on how they swing sexually, others don't pick it up until later in life. Or they know but deny it. Or they don't know and can't figure it out. Or they know but think that the artificial labels we put on sexuality aren't good enough.

Maybe your friend thought you two were on the same wavelength -- that you could get off with each other as well as get off with the ladies. Sure, it's insensitive to do it in bed. But how else are you going to figure out, yo, are you bi or are you just outright gay?



I pretty much agree with you, HNB, except the last paragraph. I didn't have an issue with him being hot for or having relationships with women. I had girlfriends too at the same time. I still am attracted to women. My issue was that he was throwing up a lot of heterosexual bravado in my face while we were in the most vulnerable places together...in bed, or after making out and after having orgasms. My only guess is that he felt guilty about our connection. I mean, why else would he throw up so many defensives to somehow negate our closeness? Also I had some really long heart-to-hearts with him about this stuff at the time, and his only response was that our relationship was unique and somehow different and was not "queer". Even now when we occasionally run into each other, he is uncomfortable and uneasy.
 

D_Martin van Burden

Account Disabled
Joined
Oct 6, 2002
Posts
3,229
Media
0
Likes
41
Points
258
My issue was that he was throwing up a lot of heterosexual bravado in my face while we were in the most vulnerable places together...in bed, or after making out and after having orgasms. My only guess is that he felt guilty about our connection. I mean, why else would he throw up so many defensives to somehow negate our closeness?

Regret, maybe some guilt, and maybe a greater need to figure out how exactly one gets off with his best buddy but still has an attraction toward women. His head was probably telling him that he had to make a choice, that there's a contradiction in liking both. This is in sharp contrast to how you were -- you dated girls, you liked girls, but you liked your buddy too and it didn't really bring you any grief.

That's what I was getting at earlier. Sometimes it's more reassuring to know that someone who isn't quite solid on his sexuality is going through the same struggle. That doesn't excuse when he decided to talk about liking girls and wanting to fuck them. But the way you tell the story makes you sound like a bit of a jilted lover. And that's cool, man; you felt that way for good reason.

In an ideal world, everybody could fuck whomever they want and there wouldn't be such societal importance on trying to identify sexually. We would all be free to love whomever we want, unconditionally and without pretense. Alas, our society isn't like that; people want to figure out and put parameters on virtually every kind of human relationship.

I think you should forgive your friend -- not because he was necessarily right in how he treated you. You should forgive him so that your mind can be at ease about this.
 

B_Hung Jon

Loved Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Posts
4,124
Media
0
Likes
535
Points
193
Location
Los Angeles, California
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
Regret, maybe some guilt, and maybe a greater need to figure out how exactly one gets off with his best buddy but still has an attraction toward women. His head was probably telling him that he had to make a choice, that there's a contradiction in liking both. This is in sharp contrast to how you were -- you dated girls, you liked girls, but you liked your buddy too and it didn't really bring you any grief.

That's what I was getting at earlier. Sometimes it's more reassuring to know that someone who isn't quite solid on his sexuality is going through the same struggle. That doesn't excuse when he decided to talk about liking girls and wanting to fuck them. But the way you tell the story makes you sound like a bit of a jilted lover. And that's cool, man; you felt that way for good reason.

In an ideal world, everybody could fuck whomever they want and there wouldn't be such societal importance on trying to identify sexually. We would all be free to love whomever we want, unconditionally and without pretense. Alas, our society isn't like that; people want to figure out and put parameters on virtually every kind of human relationship.

I think you should forgive your friend -- not because he was necessarily right in how he treated you. You should forgive him so that your mind can be at ease about this.


HNB, I get what you're saying now more clearly. Thanks for the effort. Yeh, I did feel bad because it wasn't as if we were hanging out talking about girls in some neutral situation. It was while we were making love. But not in some strictly dirty talk sort of way. I think that's why it affected me so much. I would say that I have forgiven him but at the same time in the present he won't ever give me the opportunity to talk about it. I'm not expecting any change in this situation, so I've just let it go. The reason I brought it up originally is that it seems a common experience for other guys, and I just wanted to share it. Thanks for your advice and input.
 

CorsicanU

Experimental Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2011
Posts
57
Media
12
Likes
17
Points
43
Location
Florida
Sexuality
60% Straight, 40% Gay
Gender
Male
You are wrong. If his 'straight' friend couldn't handle it, wouldn't the straight friend have broken it off with Jon and not the other way around?

Fucken' A.
By virtue of the "straight" guys bewilderment when the relationship was
ended, I don't think he meant any harm and was not being homophobic.
Perhaps he felt close enough to you to share those feelings which may
very well be real. And perhaps you may be possessive
and your subsequent hurt- and jealousy- put you into a rage, ending the friendship.
 

B_Hung Jon

Loved Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Posts
4,124
Media
0
Likes
535
Points
193
Location
Los Angeles, California
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
Fucken' A.
By virtue of the "straight" guys bewilderment when the relationship was
ended, I don't think he meant any harm and was not being homophobic.
Perhaps he felt close enough to you to share those feelings which may
very well be real. And perhaps you may be possessive
and your subsequent hurt- and jealousy- put you into a rage, ending the friendship.

Thanks for your input but have to say that I was never "in a rage" about it. I thought it was inappropriate given the situation. If the situation were turned around and my buddy was talking with a female lover about his interest in other girls when he was in bed with her, can you imagine what would have happened? All I'm saying is that my friend was never able to acknowledge our relationship...even now, and didn't understand how that affected me.
 

B_jeepguy2

Expert Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Posts
977
Media
0
Likes
108
Points
113
Location
East Coast
Sexuality
80% Gay, 20% Straight
Gender
Male
Thanks for your input but have to say that I was never "in a rage" about it. I thought it was inappropriate given the situation. If the situation were turned around and my buddy was talking with a female lover about his interest in other girls when he was in bed with her, can you imagine what would have happened? All I'm saying is that my friend was never able to acknowledge our relationship...even now, and didn't understand how that affected me.

IMO your buddy saw your relationship completely differently than you did. He didn't see you as his lover, he saw you as his best bud that he shared everything with...including orgasms. Not sure what all you guys were doing in bed when you say "making love" but maybe it went a little further than he was totally comfortable with.

I am guessing what was going through his mind right then was something like this. "I just had sex with my best buddy and liked it, OH SHIT!!!, I am supposed to like girls because I am not gay. That felt damn good but I can't possibly be gay. Is my buddy going to think I am gay now? Damn, I better tell him how much I am attracted to girls to prove I am not gay." :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:

CorsicanU

Experimental Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2011
Posts
57
Media
12
Likes
17
Points
43
Location
Florida
Sexuality
60% Straight, 40% Gay
Gender
Male
Thanks for your input but have to say that I was never "in a rage" about it. I thought it was inappropriate given the situation. If the situation were turned around and my buddy was talking with a female lover about his interest in other girls when he was in bed with her, can you imagine what would have happened? All I'm saying is that my friend was never able to acknowledge our relationship...even now, and didn't understand how that affected me.


I understand.
I arrived at a hasty conclusion without all the facts,
a mistake so many are apt to make not knowing the
full circumstances of the situation at hand.
 
Last edited:
D

deleted692552

Guest
Dear Jon,

It is hard to say what was going through his mind. Clearly you felt and saw the situation differently, and were not afraid of where it was headed as it grew intensely.

The problem you're facing personally is that you were very attached. When we are younger we have a much harder time letting go of bad experiences, specially if they happen to be the first time.

It seems to me that either:
He was just curious, and enjoyed how everything felt with another guy.
He was not sure of his sexuality.
He knows what he likes(whether bi, mostly straight, or perhaps gay in the end), but rather cover it. This one is only true if he continues to have other male relationships or the like.

You need to try and let it go, and forgive. I know it is very hard.

I do not know clearly what you like, but I assume that you're in the middle. There are many men (targeting only men since this was with one) out there that would most likely appreciate you if they knew you deeper, myself included. Perhaps if you get involved with a guy again (pardon me if I happen to be wrong with this right now), you'd let go much easier after feeling very loved and cared by another guy.
 

B_Hung Jon

Loved Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Posts
4,124
Media
0
Likes
535
Points
193
Location
Los Angeles, California
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
Dear Jon,

It is hard to say what was going through his mind. Clearly you felt and saw the situation differently, and were not afraid of where it was headed as it grew intensely.

The problem you're facing personally is that you were very attached. When we are younger we have a much harder time letting go of bad experiences, specially if they happen to be the first time.

It seems to me that either:
He was just curious, and enjoyed how everything felt with another guy.
He was not sure of his sexuality.
He knows what he likes(whether bi, mostly straight, or perhaps gay in the end), but rather cover it. This one is only true if he continues to have other male relationships or the like.

You need to try and let it go, and forgive. I know it is very hard.

I do not know clearly what you like, but I assume that you're in the middle. There are many men (targeting only men since this was with one) out there that would most likely appreciate you if they knew you deeper, myself included. Perhaps if you get involved with a guy again (pardon me if I happen to be wrong with this right now), you'd let go much easier after feeling very loved and cared by another guy.


Thanks for your ideas and input as well. When I wrote the original post, I was just talking about one early relationship I had with another boy. It was not the first or the last. I don't think it's ever been an issue of forgiving. My emotions are settled about this. I was just using this example as a way of describing what young guys may go through when they fall for one another. I don't expect anyone here to help solve this particular issue in the past but rather to simply acknowledge how men may function in a society that doesn't value or even have much room for these experiences. As I said earlier on this thread, young guys are not given some "how to" manual on how to deal with male-to-male relationships. BTW as I said, I've had some amazing connections with guys in my life, and i don't feel this experience colored my future love affairs. :smile:
 
1

191807

Guest
Well..................... i have been through what you have been through... He kept talking about girls and fucking their arses e.t.c or girls. One thing you to have to understand is, he is bi. And a lot of bi men fuck men in their part time but full time is loving their woman.... To a bi man, you are like mistress (mistresses are for sex, friendship) but you wanted more and you thought, you were special. Don't worry it's what a lot of women go through when men use them for sex lol....


I was laughing at "Sounds like you have some externalised biphobia." Cause in a way, it's more true than him being homophobic... he wants fun with a man, you're not happy with it cause, you seem to want a relationship and because of this you think he is homophobic? lol
 
Last edited by a moderator:

badger2395

Experimental Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Posts
167
Media
0
Likes
23
Points
163
Location
Madison (Wisconsin, United States)
Sexuality
50% Straight, 50% Gay
Gender
Male
Hungjon, I think some of the comments so far have illustrated a problem: some guys are behaviorally bisexual, but have not accepted a bisexual identity. Combine that with latent homophobia and biphobia, and it describes your friend fairly accurately - he liked having sex with you, but when confronted with the possibility that it might mean something more, he retreated to talking about something with which he felt more comfortable. In that, he was probably trying to validate that he was still attracted to girls, and possibly seeing if you were, as well, i.e. "I can't be gay; I still like girls," or "we can't be gay; we still like girls." For a guy wanting his bisexual identity validated (you), this was quite off-putting - judging by your description.

Yeah. It sucks. Especially since you were developing deeper feelings for him, it must've felt like "WTF?!"
 

B_PATRICKMCC55

Experimental Member
Joined
May 5, 2006
Posts
41
Media
0
Likes
2
Points
153
Some well reasoned responses here. My 2 cents...you were teens. His physical wants and desires may easily have overwhelmed his emotional thoughts. Once his physical needs were met, his emotional level took over. Happens in straight , gay, and bi people that while in postcoital afterthought, realize that while their sexual needs were satiated, their emotional needs were not. He was obviously in a physical relationship, not an emotional one with you. The fact he was a good friend is irrelevant, he had physical desires for you, but not romantic ones. The fact hat he brought up girls in bed was immature but probably what he thought was the best way to let you know that a romantic relationship wasnt going to happen.
Ive had these feelings after sex many times, with both men and women. When my dick gets hard, it blurs out all rational thinking. And it happened a lot more often in my teens with guys. Part of it was the confusion and guilt I felt about hooking up with a guy. As I got older, and learned that my sexual needs and desires were nothing to be ashamed of, it dissipated somewhat.
Dont think he has any homophobia in the strictest definition, I think he was afraid that he himself might be gay, not a fear of others homosexuality.
Shit, if I had just finished a roll in the hay with you in my high school years, your beaut of a tool, and your smoking body, I'd probably wonder how I'd ever be able to bed a babe again.
 

piratebulldog

Experimental Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Posts
85
Media
0
Likes
9
Points
103
Location
So CAL
Sexuality
90% Straight, 10% Gay
Gender
Male
Some well reasoned responses here. My 2 cents...you were teens. His physical wants and desires may easily have overwhelmed his emotional thoughts. Once his physical needs were met, his emotional level took over. Happens in straight , gay, and bi people that while in postcoital afterthought, realize that while their sexual needs were satiated, their emotional needs were not. He was obviously in a physical relationship, not an emotional one with you. The fact he was a good friend is irrelevant, he had physical desires for you, but not romantic ones. The fact hat he brought up girls in bed was immature but probably what he thought was the best way to let you know that a romantic relationship wasnt going to happen.
Ive had these feelings after sex many times, with both men and women. When my dick gets hard, it blurs out all rational thinking. And it happened a lot more often in my teens with guys. Part of it was the confusion and guilt I felt about hooking up with a guy. As I got older, and learned that my sexual needs and desires were nothing to be ashamed of, it dissipated somewhat.
Dont think he has any homophobia in the strictest definition, I think he was afraid that he himself might be gay, not a fear of others homosexuality.
Shit, if I had just finished a roll in the hay with you in my high school years, your beaut of a tool, and your smoking body, I'd probably wonder how I'd ever be able to bed a babe again.

I, too, read through all of the posts but I find the one above to be the most well reasoned. You were teenagers. I do feel in many ways from first posting that the other young guy was just as much a wronged party. He shared his adolescent thoughts to a friend and he is summarily dismissed from your life. Yeah, was it a bit odd for him to share what he did following sex with you? Admittedly. Your actions seemed just as inappropriate and over-wrought. I am not sure who owes who the apology. Yet, after so many years, the situation is moot. Live and learn. I am sure he has done the same.
 

draw22

Cherished Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
May 29, 2010
Posts
371
Media
63
Likes
311
Points
308
Location
Philadelphia (Pennsylvania, United States)
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Since I know you pretty well, Jonny, I think people responding to your little story are missing the point you are trying to make. Tell me if this is true. It sounds to me that your friend was using some of your intimate time together to talk about women because he was somewhat uncomfortable being with another boy. It's the way that young guys seem to bond. I think it was extremely insensitive of him to do that when you were cuddling or in bed together. It's almost as if he was trying to put you down, and in doing that he was also doing the same thing to himself. Almost like two boys making love wasn't as good as a guy and a girl. So if your friend was feeling confused about his experience with you, and then expressed it that way, it sounds very much like he was relying on his heterosexual privilege to affirm his own ego. So in that sense I see how you could call his response internalized homophobia. Also if I understand you correctly, I don't think you're feeling so bad about it now, but rather are sharing it as a learning experience. Is that true?

not gonna reiterate but thats it right there..he was being a Major Dick because he was ashamed of his feelings and his actions, so he was putting you down and trying to lift himself up by say aloud he was str8, jus BS...well had to elaborate:tongue:
 

B_Hung Jon

Loved Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Posts
4,124
Media
0
Likes
535
Points
193
Location
Los Angeles, California
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
Hungjon, I think some of the comments so far have illustrated a problem: some guys are behaviorally bisexual, but have not accepted a bisexual identity. Combine that with latent homophobia and biphobia, and it describes your friend fairly accurately - he liked having sex with you, but when confronted with the possibility that it might mean something more, he retreated to talking about something with which he felt more comfortable. In that, he was probably trying to validate that he was still attracted to girls, and possibly seeing if you were, as well, i.e. "I can't be gay; I still like girls," or "we can't be gay; we still like girls." For a guy wanting his bisexual identity validated (you), this was quite off-putting - judging by your description.

Yeah. It sucks. Especially since you were developing deeper feelings for him, it must've felt like "WTF?!"


Thanks for your view on all this. I do feel as if this experience along with some other similar ones stayed with me until I actually had a full-on relationship with another guy which was completely mutual at every level. I also don't feel that the boy I was involved with when we were both 18 was only having a sexual romp with me. We were quite emotionally close and were able to express our love for each other. He wasn't "confused" about what we had. I also don't think I wanted him to validate my identity. I just wanted to be held with the same regard as any other person he had been involved with. I agree with most people on here who have said that he was not mature enough to be honest and open in his feelings about certain aspects of our relationship. He still isn't. I obviously don't expect him to ever change all these years later. I'm also am not interested in having anything more than a friendship at this point. As I've said a few times on this thread, I just was presenting a situation that I experienced as a young guy that taught me a lot about how men have difficulty relating to one another in terms of intimacy. :smile:
 

badger2395

Experimental Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Posts
167
Media
0
Likes
23
Points
163
Location
Madison (Wisconsin, United States)
Sexuality
50% Straight, 50% Gay
Gender
Male
I just wanted to be held with the same regard as any other person he had been involved with.

I hear THAT. The guy I am seeing currently is bi, but all of his experience in relationships up until this point has been with women. He's still getting used to the idea that he CAN BE and IS involved with another guy.