Straight, Gay or Lying? Bisexuality Revisited

Discussion in 'Sex With a Large Penis' started by mistergrasso, Jul 8, 2005.

  1. mistergrasso

    mistergrasso Member

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    A new study reported in the New York Times, http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/05/health/05sex.html?,
    seems to show that bisexuality is not a true orientation. I have my own feelings about what might be the flaws in this study but I thought maybe some of the 90%/10% or 40%/60 guys, or any guys who report some ratio other than 0/100 or 100/0, might want to chime in and give their own oppinions.

    Below is the text of the first half of the article.
    Some people are attracted to women; some are attracted to men. And some, if Sigmund Freud, Dr. Alfred Kinsey and millions of self-described bisexuals are to be believed, are drawn to both sexes.But a new study casts doubt on whether true bisexuality exists, at least in men.

    The study, by a team of psychologists in Chicago and Toronto, lends support to those who have long been skeptical that bisexuality is a distinct and stable sexual orientation.

    People who claim bisexuality, according to these critics, are usually homosexual, but are ambivalent about their homosexuality or simply closeted. "You're either gay, straight or lying," as some gay men have put it.

    In the new study, a team of psychologists directly measured genital arousal ptified themselves as bisexual were in fact exclusively aroused by either one sex or the other, usually by other men.

    The study is the largest of several small reports suggesting that the estimated 1.7 percent of men who identify themselves as bisexual show physical attraction patterns that differ substantially from their professed desires.

    "Research on sexual orientation has been based almost entirely on self-reports, and this is one of the few good studies using physiological measures," said Dr. Lisa Diamond, an associate professor of psychology and gender identity at the University of Utah, who was not involved in the study.

    The discrepancy between what is happening in people's minds and what is going on in their bodies, she said, presents a puzzle "that the field now has to crack, and it raises this question about what we mean when we talk about desire."

    "We have assumed that everyone means the same thing," she added, "but here we have evidence that that is not the case."

    Several other researchers who have seen the study, scheduled to be published in the journal Psychological Science, said it would need to be repeate
    Patterns in response to images of men and women. The psychologists found that men who iden
    Somed with larger numbers of bisexual men before clear conclusions could be drawn.

    Bisexual desires are sometimes transient and they are still poorly understood. Men and women also appear to differ in the frequency of bisexual attractions. "The last thing you want," said Dr. Randall Sell, an assistant professor of clinical socio-medical sciences at Columbia University, "is for some therapists to see this study and start telling bisexual people that they're wrong, that they're really on their way to homosexuality."

    He added, "We don't know nearly enough about sexual orientation and identity" to jump to these conclusions.

    In the experiment, psychologists at Northwestern University and the Center for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto used advertisements in gay and alternative newspapers to recruit 101 young adult men. Thirty-three of the men identified themselves as bisexual, 30 as straight and 38 as homosexual.

    The researchers asked the men about their sexual desires and rated them on a scale from 0 to 6 on sexual orientation, with 0 to 1 indicating heterosexuality, and 5 to 6 indicating homosexuality. Bisexuality was measured by scores in the middle range.

    Seated alone in a laboratory room, the men then watched a series of erotic movies, some involving only women, others involving only men.

    Using a sensor to monitor sexual arousal, the researchers found what they expected: gay men showed arousal to images of men and little arousal to images of women, and heterosexual men showed arousal to women but not to men.

    But the men in the study who described themselves as bisexual did not have patterns of arousal that were consistent with their stated attraction to men and to women. Instead, about three-quarters of the group had arousal patterns identical to those of gay men; the rest were indistinguishable from heterosexuals.

    "Regardless of whether the men were gay, straight or bisexual, they showed about four times more arousal" to one sex or the other, said Gerulf Rieger, a graduate psychology student at Northwestern and the study's lead author.

    Although about a third of the men in each group showed no significant arousal watching the movies, their lack of response did not change the overall findings, Mr. Rieger said.
     
  2. Bariton

    Bariton New Member

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    Well, I'm 40% bisexual.
     
  3. DanielForever

    DanielForever New Member

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    im total gay
     
  4. D_Martin van Burden

    D_Martin van Burden Account Disabled

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    I don't think the research results could statistically distinguish particular attractions. Despite what the electrodes indicate, I can imagine that some subjects might have found those particular women or men on screen attractive, thus the arousal. Never mind the most glaring flaw: that a measure of physical arousal is only just a bit of what makes a person attracted to one gender or another.

    That admitted, I'll stick to my usual comment. Not to say that the women aren't out there, but experience has shown that men are way better at giving head. So, until I find the woman that I'm going to settle with and that I feel good about immersing into a long-term relationship, I'll take head wherever I can get it -- guy or girl -- so long as that person looks pretty decent.
     
  5. jonb

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    That's not all, Dee. This guy, J Michael Bailey, has been linked to a racist eugenic group, the Human Biodiversity Institute. He's your typical racist shit-stirrer that the media love.
     
  6. BobLeeSwagger

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    I think there are a few kernels of truth in there. There are many gay men who call themselves bisexual for a time, for various reasons. And statistics seem to show that bisexuals make up a fairly small part of the population. (By bisexual I mean actively seeking partners of both genders, not occasional experimentation.) There are people who try to have it both ways even though they have a clear preference.

    But basing this on this very unscientific study of rating people's reactions to seeing men and women makes for media fluff, not news. There are so many reasons why someone would be attracted to one person or another that I doubt this can be measured in more than a general way. You might as well ask someone if they think a particular car on the street is cool. Well, you could like the color, but not the car. Or like the car but that spoiler looks lame. Seems like studies of how many partners of each sex someone has had in the last X years would make a lot more sense.
     
  7. steve319

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    I have some questions about the reliability of this one too. You guys have hit it dead center, I think, with your skepticism, particularly in relation to sexual attraction being a complex and changeable formula that is certainly about more than physical arousal.

    I'd also question the validity of the sampling. Would this sampling be considered truly random and representative given the means of gathering participants?


    Hmmm....not sure that anyone's personal matrix of sexual attraction could be deemed "stable" over the course of a lifetime. Life isn't that simple, and I've found that my own arousal responses are anything but predictable in some situations. (Is it just me?) If I were wearing a collar/sensor around my cock, who knows how I might respond to stimulus? ;)

    I might buy that one, but only because that's maybe true for us all to some degree when it comes to changing tastes or shifting patterns of desire? While I've never considered myself bisexual, my choice to list my orientation as 90/10 here at LPSG is a sort of admission to myself of occasional, unexplained attraction that hasn't followed any particularly discernible pattern--at least not discernible to me. :) That sounds pretty transient to me.

    And I'd certainly categorize our understanding of sexual identity and arousal as "poorly understood" in all cases.

    I'm a big believer in truth, even if it hurts sometimes, but this "study" could do a lot of damage, I think.

    <!--QuoteBegin-DeeBlackthorne
    @Jul 8 2005, 04:22 PM
    Not to say that the women aren&#39;t out there, but experience has shown that men are way better at giving head.[/quote]
    :D You know, Dee, I&#39;ve always heard that and have to admit that I&#39;ve wondered if it might not be true. (A gay friend of mine keeps telling me that at every opportunity, hoping to make me blush, I suspect.)

    As Elaine said on Seinfeld, "Being a woman, I only really have access to the, uh... equipment, what, thirty, forty-five minutes a week. And that&#39;s on a good week. How can I be expected to have the same expertise as people who *own* this equipment, and have access to it twenty-four hours a day, their entire lives?"

    ;)
     
  8. Lex

    Lex
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    Dee--I so totally feel the vibe bro.
    Steve319--men ARE better at head on average--I mean--they&#39;ve GOT cock, so they seem to know what to do with one a bit more inutitively than do women.

    And if single, I would totally get off with whomever I felt the need. Some guys are hot, some gilrs are hot.

    GOD< I love being BI. mmMMMMMMMmmm
     
  9. Pene_Negro_Grande

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    Dee I use to think that too and maybe it is just the few guys that have given me blowjobs - I have had the best blowjobs from women...I mean I had some blowjobs from women that was so good that I didn&#39;t even want to have sex afterwards because I was so satisfied...I remember a couple of chicks that was so good that I had to grip anything around to hold on...Guy blow jobs have always disappointed me...But for that reason the times I have returned the favor I made sure I was very good at it...But I am also way more into girls too so I could be bias...
     
  10. Pene_Negro_Grande

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    Also I hate articles like this because I think it causes more harm than good on males sorting about their feelings...Personally I have always been more attracted to females even as a young child and live a straight lifestyle but before I really understood myself and because of my slight attraction to some males - I use to think I must be gay or something like that because of articles and people who think like that...I think my screwed up perception of sexuality for myself comes from me being molested by a male baby sitter as a child (there are some sick individuals out there)...I was so young that I didn&#39;t know it was wrong...I don&#39;t think predators like that know how they can screw up someone for life by preying on innocent kids...To this day - I constantly think about that incident and really affected my life and sexual choices...
     
  11. jonb

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    That&#39;s strange. Most cases of molestation by a male make the boy very homophobic. Generally speaking children who are molested tend to be very repressed due to the guilt they feel.
     
  12. D_Martin van Burden

    D_Martin van Burden Account Disabled

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    I&#39;m in agreement, Pene. I haven&#39;t read the original study, but from what I&#39;ve gathered, it sounds like questionably sound research on a volatile topic that, at the very least, is just going to fuel some rough arguments and cause a lot of general discomfort.

    And here&#39;s my appeal: of what good is this study? Who benefits from this information? And how it is contributing to the... cough... increasingly reliable knowledge available on human sexuality?

    Let&#39;s be honest. I&#39;m a 90-10 guy so the implications of this study really aren&#39;t of a big deal to me. I can acknowledge honestly my own same-gender flirtations and action, and I think I&#39;ve got out of my experiences fairly unscathed. But what about the other people who have a much more pervasive, deep, and fleshed-out liking, striving, and longing for either same-sex or opposite-sex companionship? Just because some scientific dudes have some subjects fill out a questionnaire and gave &#39;em some porn, that doesn&#39;t let us make long-distance pot-shots on who likes whom and why.

    Again, I haven&#39;t read the study, but I feel like this is just one piece of a to-be you-can&#39;t-exist argument for people whose behaviors, fantasies, and actions do not neatly fit into the straight or gay boxes. I really don&#39;t. I can say with experience that the few gay men I tried to befriend in college gave me that tired line too: "You&#39;re just going to be gay later, you know."

    Whatever, Maries.

    God forbid that science learns how to tap into your fantasies when you sleep. All those come-and-gone boners. What then? Existent or not, I don&#39;t feel like Americans are much able to possess sexuality that isn&#39;t somehow saturated with shame and guilt anyway -- unless you&#39;re a hooker, and then you&#39;re just a hooker.
     
  13. steve319

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    Oh come on&#33; It&#39;s just that simple? To just "make sure"? ;) Does that mean the lame oral we&#39;ve all had just meant she wasn&#39;t "making sure"? ;)

    Exactly&#33; This can only cause more sadness and self-doubt. I&#39;m not for burying the "truth," but I&#39;m not convinced that this study wasn&#39;t geared to fit an agenda.

    <!--QuoteBegin-DeeBlackthorne
    @Jul 10 2005, 09:53 PM
    God forbid that science learns how to tap into your fantasies when you sleep. All those come-and-gone boners. What then? [/quote]
    Then we&#39;re all screwed&#33; To quote a favorite funky philosopher/poet:

    If a man is considered guilty for what goes on in his mind then give me the electric chair for all my future crimes.


    Who is going to accurately catalogue my own "turn ons" and such? And who thinks I&#39;m going to participate? ;)

    Pet theory time: can any of you 100% straight guys buy this? That maybe there&#39;s a tiny glimmer of physical arousal when you see a picture of an erection because there&#39;s some mental connection/identification with your own cock not necessarily out of attraction?
     
  14. blackwood

    blackwood New Member

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    --------------------------

    "molestation by a male make the boy very homophobic", really?

    I cannot in any way speak well of molestation or molestators. My younger son was pursued by such an individual, without success BUT&#33; MY wife and I provided the support to our kid, ensuring that he felt no way responsible.

    SOCIETY "labels" and only with the support of those who believe in the "benefits" of labeling fall "into step".

    BENEFITS??? Uh Huh&#33; revenge? financial benefits? escape from a questionable situation? AS LONG AS THE ARE NO PHYSICAL THREATS (RAPE)................ SOCIETY AND IT&#39;S PERCEIVED HORROR OF THE SEX ACT IT&#39;SELF taht punishes the victim.

    Society however, allows Capital Punishment, Military Deaths at the wim of the majority political party screwing of children out of a decent education, medical care, OH Yeh MEDICAL care. You canot sue the Government (successfully) but you can sue the employer, the church, the individual.........................

    V-e-r-y complicated and too many experts speak with faulity facts and forked tongues.

    (A definition: Expert = A drip under pressure) humorous but not funnie.

    I&#39;ve had sex over my 55 active years, I never kept count of what with who....IT is not relevalent to me = I like sex, by almost a definition as long as I concur. You know not with a animal, and not in chains.

    For what it&#39;s worth...........................

    blackwood
     
  15. Pene_Negro_Grande

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    That is why you can&#39;t categorize everything...Everyone handles situations differently...Can&#39;t believe I am even talking about this but maybe it can help someone else...Guilt and repression - I would be a psychiatrist dream...I have many issues and generally feel fucked up in my head...I had sex for the first time w/a first time w/a female at 12 and the molestation popped in my head and I withdrew and never had sex again until 17/18...I never masturbated until that time too because of the molestation popping into my head...

    Throughout my teen and highschool years I was really withdrawn and had major trust issues w/guys and probably had more female friends than guys and I was a football player and those guys pretty much hated or ridiculed me because of my shyness and being withdrawn...I can&#39;t maintain relationships w/girlfriends because I never let anyone in completely...I am 28 yrs old and have never been in love...Other than this site - I have only told one person about my molestation which was this girlfriend I had in 10th grade and only because she had a similar molestation she shared first w/me...But upon a bad breakup she threw it in my face that I had been fucked by a guy and that made me never trusting of a female again because she was as close as I ever came to loving a female...I actually develop more trust relationships w/males and that is why I hang out w/a lot of guys because I think I need that loving support from somewhere...

    It wasn&#39;t until college and I got a job in of all places at psychiatrist and sociologist office that I understood my issues (I have read many case file and sat in on group sessions) that I understood my issues and developed great compassion and understanding of others and realize that I am not a freak...From outward appearances most people think I have it really together and come to me w/all their problems and issues but I am still I feel a complete basket case in my head because I take on not only my problems but my friends problems internally...I have always been very successful at anything I have done...I am very much a people person and have a skill of making people very comfortable and trusting of me...

    To be honest - gay men do make me a bit uncomfortable but I try to not let me judge them because of my own issues...The few male encounters I have had were w/self-confessed straight males (experimentation if you want to call it that) and sometimes in my mind I think I did it to prove to myself that I was not gay...Last time I let a guy give me oral or myself give him was almost 2yrs ago and I haven&#39;t really had a strong desire to do something like that since that time...I only have the desire to date women and never men...And this might sound weird - guys that I am attracted too usually nothing sexually happens and we end being very close friends so I think I could be just attracted to their personalities because after meeting that person - no sexual thoughts enter my head...And I recently became sober heading into week 2 now and I realized my attraction for guys has lessen which is weird to me because alcohol may loosen your inhabitions but I have always thought they don&#39;t inhibit you from anything that you would not have done anyway...

    So in closing this molestation has destroyed me mentally because I feel like 2 different individuals - one person who appears to have it all - the person who is always the center of the party and know all the beautiful people (that is what they call my crew) and out to all the hottest parties...The other person is still this scared little kid who can put this behind him...I keep a strong appearance and a wall that can&#39;t be broken and many have given me the opportunity to help (and I love them for that) but I still can&#39;t open up...I am very lucky I have about 6 individuals in my life I consider like best friends and 15 others I consider really good friends and I pretty much know everyone of importance in my city so I have tons of support and love...But that is becoming a issue of mine too...I know to many people and now I am going through one of my withdrawn phases since I have become sober and I can&#39;t go anywhere w/o someone knowing me...A good friend just knocked on my door and I pretending not to be home...
     
  16. SomeGuyOverThere

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    Im not gonig to argue on psycological terms, mainly because it is very late at night here and I&#39;m too tired to.

    But I know that I am "into" both men and women.

    I&#39;ll agree that in myself atleast it is not a "stable " orientation, and is quite frustrating, because some days I swing one way, other days another, some days its both ways and other days I dont give a shit for relationships at all.

    But, what can I do?

    I can only really count myself as Bisexual, because I can appreciate either men or women.

    Maybe I need to see a psychiatrist...
     
  17. Pene_Negro_Grande

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    You do not need a shrink...You sound like you understand yourself to me...And myself I am always in the mood for women...It takes combination of looks, personality, and style for me to be interested in a guy so I really have to kind into their head a bit before an attraction hits...It has to be someone I think that would be a cool friend and someone I would hang out with...Women - way less effort for me...A woman just has to be sexy and cool (much more visual for me)...
     
  18. jonb

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    I meant usually makes. That&#39;s just the usual situation. If it was forced, then it&#39;s rape. If it was consensual, then there&#39;s the ego-dystonic thing occurring in most molestation cases.
     
  19. Pene_Negro_Grande

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    There is a documentary on HBO called "Twist of Faith"...Anyone who has dealt with or no someone who has dealt with needs to watch it...Only after watching that show am I even comfortable even talking about it on this board...But this guy&#39;s story made me think because of something he said that molestation involving penetrating a child is rape...This guy and others were continually being molested by their priest...And I am not trying to start a conversation about priest and molestation...It really stuck in my head when he said - I don&#39;t care if I was walking around butt naked and asking this guy for it - it is still rape and he should know it is wrong being that he is an adult...I only say that because being a child I didn&#39;t know better and didn&#39;t know it was wrong so the consensual thing kind of bothers me when it involves a child...There is nothing consensual about it - it&#39;s rape...
     
  20. jonb

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    Too true. But by "forced" I guess I should&#39;ve said violent. And by "consensual" I should&#39;ve said nonviolent.

    There are all kinds of psychological issues which can come up. PTSD, BPD, GID . . . It&#39;s alphabet soup.
     
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