Straight Marriage

Discussion in 'Politics' started by scottredleter, Jul 9, 2010.

  1. scottredleter

    scottredleter New Member

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    I get why the gay community is fighting for gay marriage, it's the most blatant, government based discrimination that there is. And so clearly unconstitutional that it should be an easy target... (should).

    But my question is, Why does the government have anything to do with it all. If it's sacred to you, go to you church and get married. Why get the government involved with it? Do you need government approval?

    As a gay man, the thought of getting married makes all the blood drain out of my head.

    I'm not against committment to another or many people. I just don't feel any need to pattern my relationships after the failed straight institution of marriage. My commitments will be of my choosing. It may be with 5 or more people who live in a polymorphous situation. Our wedding may be a naked gathering on the full moon in the woods, exchanging cock rings and fucking like animals on the ground.

    tax incentives, licensing, etc... it's all just creepy social control. Like China telling people they can only have one child.

    this should be considered the most outrageous violation of the seperation of church and state. the simple fact that churches can decide who they will and wont marry is enough of a reason to ban any and all marriage law... for straight or gay.

    Again, I ask... why does the govenment have anything to do with our relationships at all...?
     
  2. TomCat84

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    You are entitled to your own opinions, sir.
     
  3. D_Chaumbrelayne_Copprehead

    D_Chaumbrelayne_Copprehead Account Disabled

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    You know, I don't disagree with you. Personally, I think the government ought to be in the business of granting civil unions to any two people who want them, so that certain legal rights are assured ... the right to inherit each others' goods, the right to share custody of kids, the right to share in benefits, and so forth.

    That way, both gay and straight couples would get the same rights and privileges that we want to give to people who settle down together.

    Then, marriage ought to be a religious rite you enter voluntarily, not something the government gives you.

    It's really two different things, isn't it? The legal stuff is covered by a civil union. Then, how ... and if ... you have your relationship recognized or blessed in your faith tradition is whatever you choose it to be. It could be a big traditional church wedding. It might be being hitched by a wiccan priestess in a corn field. Or nothing.

    Now, this is never gonna happen, because as simple as this is, no politician is ever gonna take marriage out of the hands of the state!
     
  4. scottredleter

    scottredleter New Member

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    You are so right that the gov. will never give up any control they get their hands on. I always feel that less gov. intrusion is better. If I want to get 'married' I will get married. I will cal it what I want and I will never ask for the gov's approval. I can set up wills to leave my assets to who I choose... I mean some people leave all their money to their cat! If I desire children then I will partner with like minded lesbians and have children and structure it the way we want to structure it. There's always more than one way to skin a cat.
     
  5. Calboner

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    See Richard Thaler and Cass Sunstein, Nudge: Improving Decisions about Health, Wealth, and Happiness, chapter 15, "Privatizing Marriage." "Under our approach, the only legal status states would confer on couples would be a civil union, which would be a domestic partnership agreement between any two people. Marriages would be strictly private matters, performed by religious and other private organizations" (pp. 217-18).
     
  6. ManlyBanisters

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    And the government will tax the living shit out of your chosen inheritor because he is not your legal spouse.

    And when the like-minded lesbians want to move to the far end of Alaska and run a husky farm and you and your male partner have fuck-all legal rights over your children because you are not in a formal relationship with their mothers? What then?

    Many gay people don't want gay marriage so the government can get in on their relationships, they want the basic rights and benefits that straight couples get in many states just by virtue of the fact that they have lived together for a certain amount of time, no paper needed.

    Your OP and subsequent post really do sound very naive.
     
  7. D_Chaumbrelayne_Copprehead

    D_Chaumbrelayne_Copprehead Account Disabled

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    You're right; there's already ways to get done anything you might want to get done. However, I'd rather make it easy for people who don't have the pocket change to go see a lawyer to set up their relationship to have the same opportunities. No one should have to pay an attorney to make sure that they can see their loved one in the hospital!

    Calboner, thanks for the tip -- I had never heard anyone voice the same opinion!
     
  8. Industrialsize

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    If you are gay You can NOT lawyer your way to accrue the rights and privledges that the Federal Government confers on married couples.

    According to a report given to the Office of the General Counsel of the U.S. General Accounting Office, here are a few of the 1,138 benefits the United States government provides to legally married couples:

    Marriage Benefits
     
  9. Calboner

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    Very instructive!
     
  10. houtx48

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    marriage is a civil contract between two like minded people, has little or nothing to do with religion except where two people feel the need. They need to extend the same rights and privileges to all citizens of the United States instead of excluding a few groups chosen by a few bigoted persons.
     
  11. ColoradoGuy

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    Look, while many of us might agree that the government shouldn't be part of the decision, this dismissal of tax incentives, licensing, etc. as some sort of "creepy social control" or unnecessary formality is just naive.

    Federal recognition of civil unions or marriages between same-sex partners (personally, I don't care which term is selected) is absolutely required in order for anti-discrimination laws to work, for medical notification and decision rights laws to work, for inheritance rights to work, for family law to work, for tax law to work and for social benefits to work.

    It's fine that you prefer to fuck in the forest with your five same-sex love interests, but you should do your gay and lesbian brothers and sisters a big favor and get behind them as they fight for marriage rights. I have never understood this splintering in the gay community over whether or not gays should be for or against allowing such a clear example of sanctioned discrimination. That would be like Martin Luther King having other black activists tell him that the back of the bus isn't all that bad. Even if "the institution" is not for you, you would benefit socially from legalized recognition of same-sex relationships.

    Also, no amount of legal papering will ever enable any committed same-sex couple to enjoy the same benefits as a traditional married heterosexual couple. You can leave your assets to whomever you wish, but try doing that with your pension, your annuity contracts or your social security benefits. Federal law trumps in every one of those situations.

    And I wouldn't call marriage a "failed straight institution" -- all that does is promote an anti-straight agenda and you need straight folks to be on your side in this fight, too. I think I understand your attempted point, but despite the divorce statistics, there are a lot of happily married people who would give a big thumbs-up to the concept of marriage.

    Finally, do not think for one minute that this issue will carry without a lot of active support in your community and between your community and the vast number of uninformed voters that exist out there. It's not only a 10th Amendment fight (although, as Bbucko points out correctly -- the Massachusetts challenge is based in that legal theory).


    At the end of the day, scottredleter, this is all about gay and lesbian members of society being recognized as equals. You can't afford to subscribe to this naive dismissal.
     
    #11 ColoradoGuy, Jul 9, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2010
  12. scottredleter

    scottredleter New Member

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    I'm for fighting for gay marriage... but only because it is the most blatant outright discrimination of gay people. The problem I have is with marriage itself. It's an old outdated and failed institution that means absolutely nothing to me. I think sometimes that people see it as some kind of protection against being hurt or abandonded... but that happens everyday to married and unmarried people.
    I'll own all the descriptions about my being naive... In my naive world, the government has absolutely no bearing on what I do or don't do. The government is not my parent, I'm not a child and I don't count on them to protect me in any way, shape or form... the government is only concerned with making sure that you a productive widget maker so they can make heaps of money and then fly around the world dropping bombs on other children of the world because one doesn't like what the other is doing. Fuck tradition... it's given us nothing but stress, empty promises and unreasonable expectations. Maybe it's time to start something new
     
  13. ColoradoGuy

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    You could join the tea-partiers -- they also have a contempt for government. Seriously, drop the Ayn Rand bullshit and focus on backing marriage rights for gays and lesbians. And when I say focus, I don't mean that you should inform everybody about your contempt for government in the process... I mean you should fight for equality under the law. Then, you can pick up where you left off and carry on tilting at windmills.
     
  14. hung9mike

    hung9mike Well-Known Member

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    It's a perfectly rational approach, which is exactly why it will never work in the U.S.
     
  15. midlifebear

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    Everyone please pay close attention to Industrialsize's post and read the link(s).

    When my lover of 8 years suddenly died, (this was long before I hooked up with my handsome and currently "legal" husband as recognized in Spain, Argentina, Canada, and most EU countries), we thought we had every aspect of our financial and living trust lives tightened up with the correct legal documents and that no one could interfere with our private lives.

    Wrong.

    His "loving" mormon family from Burley, Idaho, --- those "loving mormons" who had kicked him out of their "eternal family" and disowned him when he was a teenager, who never would acknowledge his existence, and never talked about him (even in hushed tones around their Thanksgiving dinner table) --- came down upon me like a flock of starving vultures exactly 30 days after I paid to have him buried. They dragged me through civl court in Ewetaw for about 2.5 years until a mormon judge, during an appeal, agreed that I needed to sell everything off and hand it over to those "blood" relatives who had treated their son like shit his whole life.

    Mormons, like most pseudo christianists, are wonderfully cruel and think only of themselves and their cult when it comes to the money accrued by their disowned gay children.

    I was forced by court order to sell my (our) home. Plus, as in the original ruling, his "loving family" was allowed to enter my home and arbitrarily decide what was the property of my dead squeeze and what was mine. Of course, they tried to get their grubby little "families are forever" fingers on literally everything. Fortunately, for the sake of insuring a ton of crap we'd taken photos (and made duplicates) identifying how every painting, piece of furniture, appliance wristwatch and literally bucket of change had been acquired and by whom (me or him) they stiil robbed me blind, destroyed what memories I had of our life together, and upon sale of our home I had to pay the entire capital gains tax. They, in turn, ended up paying whatever inheritance tax was owed on what they received after the fact. They didn't pay much.

    Yeah. Straight people are real nice. If you're are gay, straight society is your "special" friend. It's not government interference that is a problem. We need "the government" to pass a law covering universal civil commitments. This is one place the government really needs to 'Interfere" and make life equitable between those who are "married" and those who are not married but have "civil commitment documents.

    Besides, the gay marriage issue is just a smoke screen to work up the uneducated and down right stupid (many of whom have posted to this thread) just to create a diversion so conservatives don't have to address the real social problems that need protective legislation.

    If any of you LPSG-ers who are gay and think you have your lives safely covered by wrapping up your lives with wills and living trusts in the USA, well, you're just as likely to be surprised when a 34th cousin on your lover's/mate's side of the family shows up and demands he or she should inherit the remnants of your lives. Life is not fair. And it is especially not fair in the wonderful USA.

    Been there. Done that. And if I ever am forced to go through the same again, I will happily break my spiritual beliefs and gun down the opposition until there isn't a soupçon of their fucking DNA left on the planet!

    Anyone have any questions?


    PS: Some of you (who can read) may have noticed there is a big social issue going on regarding gay marriage in Argentina. Gay marriage in Argentina is legal within the Capital Federal, AKA, within the official boundaries of Buenos Aires. It is not yet legal throughout all of the provinces.
     
    #15 midlifebear, Jul 9, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2010
  16. dandelion

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  17. Drifterwood

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    If you have a spare gun MLB, give me a call.

    I am straight, I rejected marriage a long time ago. As MLB found out, it is all about being a property contract. If you need a property contract, I suppose you may as well get married. The social construct for children and "stability" is a side issue and the religious side is irrelevant.
     
  18. Drifterwood

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    But why hasn't their population halved?
     
  19. FuzzyKen

    FuzzyKen New Member

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    Midlife Bear has brought up what is to me the biggest issue of gay marriage or gay relationships. His situation is in fact common and happens so often in the United States as to be a joke.

    I knew a gay Los Angeles Attorney. He had been in a relationship for ten years when his life partner at a very young age dropped dead of a heart attack. The family of a religious bent found a "Christian" Attorney who when the Attorney was in Court in Los Angeles trying a different case had illegally broken in to the home they shared. Taken was a brand new BMW paid for by the Attorney (with proof), a 7' grand piano also paid for by the Attorney for his life partner's pleasure (with proof) and various other things that they had assembled in their life together. The vile vermin went in to Court in front of a known homophobic Judge and basically legally converted property to theirs simply because they wanted it. Three years and $300,000 dollars later the Attorney who had lost his life partner was still being "ripped off" and for some strange reason they continued to constantly receive the same Judge who repeatedly ruled in favor of the "Good Christian People" who it was later learned attended his church.

    This happened because gay people have no rights period. The rights of gay and lesbian individuals are routinely stripped away especially if "trailer trash" marries money. The "God Fearing" trailer trash goes after the money and most of the time they get it.

    The interesting contradiction in terms here is that they claim we have no rights and then at the same time when money is involved demand 50% of an Estate.

    The ONLY way that anybody can have anything is to spend about $15,000 with Attorneys before the fact on paper laying out layers of contracts and making certain that everything is in trusts or other legal corporate entities in order to protect those assets.

    Those fighting for legal rights are not fighting for the actual right to marry. They are fighting for a great deal more than that. Sadly, the same thing happens to common law marriages when greedy blood suckers come into the picture. "Born-Again" always wins because they are surprisingly successful at getting these kinds of cases in front of extremely conservative Judges and Juries "hand picked" to be homophobic.

    Give us complete absolute Gay Marriage rights and that is the ONLY way to protect us from this kind of banditry. The things happening to gay couples in the event of the death or hospitalization of the partner are outrageous. I have seen these things happen in cases of HIV again and again.
     
  20. B_Hung Jon

    B_Hung Jon New Member

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    Although I don't agree with what seems like your libertarian views about government, I do find it somewhat strange that gay people, who I see as rebelling against traditional relationships, would want to get married at all. You are right. Hetero marriage as an institution definitely feels like a huge failure to me. So why want to emulate the that? Maybe more gay people could explain what's so great about marriage other than the rights issue.
     
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