Student Fees

Discussion in 'Politics' started by B_crackoff, Nov 23, 2010.

  1. B_crackoff

    B_crackoff New Member

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    So, are students right to demonstrate about the uplift of graduate fees from £3000-9000, & the move from inflation rate to market rate interest, leading to £50-60K debt?.

    Despite the fact that there is absolutely no bloody reason why there should be so many students, other than the massaging of unemployment figures (500,000 more students/year-500,000 less unemployed), as they ain't gonna get better jobs, & the figures of £180K earned more over a lifetime are based from a time when only 10%, not 45% went to uni - how do yo feel about tomorrow's protest?

    Why should the next generation, & any mature student trying to better themselves, wind up with debt large enough to have bought a house 10 years ago - at interest rates which will suppress domestic demand for eons to come, especially as you won't be able to get any white collar role without a degree soon?

    In light of the fact that past generations are receiving benefits 180% of the amount that they actually paid in, which future generations won't... is it fair for them to support the feckless & reckless spending & benefits of the older generation?

    Surprisingly - I'll be at Trafalgar Sq. tomorrow - lending support - I fought a university Presidential campaign on this - got the most votes - but lost on AV.! Another reason to hate the LibDems:smile:
     
    #1 B_crackoff, Nov 23, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2010
  2. Speculator

    Speculator New Member

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    So many good points, it's difficult to know where to start.

    The student protestors' anger is misguided as it's based on the premise of the nasty Tory toffs removing their right to a state eduction. Perhaps I'm just a cynic but it feels like a giant pantomime, students know they're supposed to be politically active and the Tories are traditionally the party of the establishment, but even with the fire extinguisher moment I get the sense that both sides (but the students particularly) are going through the motions.

    Essentially this activism is aimed at securing free handouts and subsidies from the state, intellectually that's about as deep as the movement goes. How am I supposed to support that?

    Like with most left wing idealism the energy used for the demonstration would be far more effective if they engaged their brain cells in the committee room before hitting the streets. At the mo it's all heat and no light.

    Tbh I'm surprised you're even going, didn't think it would be your bag. It is pretty much a Socialist Workers' Party stomping ground.
     
    #2 Speculator, Nov 23, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2010
  3. B_crackoff

    B_crackoff New Member

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    Too bloody right, but you have to use opportunity to try & re-educate:biggrin1: - I'd hate the students just to think it was just the Coalition - this has been brought about by years of Labour fiscal misrule, the bank bailout, & the sheer ignorance of the effect of all those baby boomers retiring.

    If anyone else asks, I'm going on behalf of my nephews(!), but I'm really going to get a feel of things, & get footage for a side project I'm doing. Then I'm off to the pub!

    We should have had complete financial collapse in October 2008.

    We are going to have massive social unrest on a global scale soon- it's inevitable. I want to get used to the ignorant version of it first.:rolleyes:
     
  4. dandelion

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    good point about the house. Time was you didnt need the supposed uplift in salary from having a degree to be able to afford the house. We dont need more degrees but more houses.
     
  5. Speculator

    Speculator New Member

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    Damn you're selling it to me now, I wanna go! I'll have to make do with the minature version here in Kent, the local students are going to be protesting near the coffee shop tommorrow. lol.

    It's so messed up, I actually think that £9k fees might not be such a bad idea, the potential debt levels would hopefully put a lot more young people off going and weed out all those hopeless meeja studies students. Get rid of the Student Loans Company too, they dish out credit far to readily. Lets have students apply to the bank with their GCSE and A level grades, if the bank thinks they're a good investment they'll get the funding, if not they won't. This measure would at least restore the idea of meritocracy to our tertiary institutions and allocate resources more efficiently.

    These aren't ideal solutions and I know they'd be roundly rejected by every student in the land, but it's about damage limitation rather than utopia, I just want to see those debt levels decreased.
     
  6. faceking

    faceking Well-Known Member

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    Socialism doesn't work. Not at the current 21st century scale of the G20. Gov'ts have ZERO fiscal discipline... it's not a budget problem.... it's always 99 times out of 100 a SPENDING and INEFFICIENCY problem.
     
  7. B_crackoff

    B_crackoff New Member

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    For anyone who wants to know the complete reverse of what happened in the Whitehall demo yesterday, read the f*cking BBC!

    BBC News - Eyewitness: London students protest over fees

    What a load of rubbish - each & every line - is there a Govt. D notice on the events?

    For those who know my posts, I'm hardly a sympathiser, or a Libtard, but unlike most couch Libtards on here, I got stuck into a full on State vs civil liberties battle.

    The first thing I've got to say about the youth of the UK - politically ignorant - but what a great bunch of kids & individuals - truly engaging & bright & most of all , sweet, pleasant & fantastic company - I never expected that.

    These kids, the generation who have never known want, suffered 7-8 hours of being deliberately "kettled", charged by batons, & horses, without food, water, or heat,in sub sub zero temperatures, with an amazing attitude, & far better cheer than I would have managed in my teens. Well bloody done.

    Having enjoyed the Van Gogh's, Da Vinci's, & Turner's in the National Gallery, & trying to get some footage, I joined THE POLICE LED demo down Whitehall, where it came to an abrupt end, where the police had closed the road.

    The police left one van, clearly deliberately in everyone's eyes, including the cops I talked to,50ft separate to the rest, for the anarchists to get hold of, of whom there were less than 20 serious, with probably 3 times as many friends.

    The road we had travelled was blocked off before it was even attacked - I know because once I saw the dead end, I thought shit, & tried to get out - this was 1PM.

    The Pub shut at 1.30, the sandwichbar at 2, & ALL the police swapped their baseball caps for full riot gear at 2 too. There were no toilets, water, food, heat or anything from that time on, apart from 2 portacabins winched in at 5.30 - for 5-10,000!

    All to apparently protect the LibDem HQ! Facists! Lol. The whole thing was leaderless.

    The anarchist contingent tried to, & mostly did break out at 3. The fact all others were law abiding was lost on the police. Indeed, at 1.30 I asked why we were being held - "For the potential of causing a breach of the peace!" On a lawful protest! Yet Cameron, I saw later, said he supported protests.

    Ultimately, the cold caused everyone to try & light fires - a basic F*cking human right - heat - not the crap the Liberals moan about. And I mean everyone, so ultimately, a bus shelter was destroyed mainly from the heat of the best & longest bonfire.

    It was ridiculous - 80-90% would have dispersed by 2 to 2.30. What a joke. There were 14 year olds in school uniform freezing their asses off.

    The plainclothes police were brutally stupid - one standing next to me claimed a ringleader was wielding a sledgehammer & whipping up support - he was about 16, Mediterranean, & using part of the bus stop to stoke the fire - & the idiot cop who lost both his helmet & his shield, charged 50 feet further than his colleagues, cracking heads like they were eggs for his Sunday breakfast.

    No police who entered the "kettled" zone were attacked at all! What good natured protestors eh? The only thing you could hear for hours was "LET US OUT!"

    I've seen worse violence at a Premier League match, & far, far, better policing.

    That said, I knew which way the wind was blowing, & spread the word at about 2PM, that "there's no chance in hell they'll let us go till well after rush hour" - experience does count for something.

    Civil liberties are just a game to liberals. To a Libertarian they are paramount! To keep incredibly congenial kids 7-8 hours in sub zero temperatures, with no succour, is repellant in a so called civilised society. Therefore, I was truly disgusted with my Govt. Politics, or ideaology don't enter into it.

    Thank God for the guy with the music at 6pm - Madness, RATM,hell I even got to like the drum & bass - dancing keeps your spirits up, & keeps you warm!

    Summary - great kids, shit policing, shot liberty.
     
    #7 B_crackoff, Nov 24, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2010
  8. superbot

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    Hilarious to watch a bunch of middle class kids 'playing' rioters.No doubt they think it's 'edgy stuff'.All be forgotten about by tomorrow.Who listens to students anyway?
     
  9. B_New End

    B_New End New Member

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  10. dandelion

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    Lets see: Margaret Thatcher (might have been major?) introduced laws against protestors. Then two things happened which caused them to be rolled back. They found that arresting leaders of protests simply made them worse, because then everyone did what they liked. They found that when matters got to the point of blue rinse grannies joing the protests, they again didnt dare arrest them, never mind mistreat them. The danger here for the government is probably when an increasing number of middle class teenagers start joining the protests, and they start arresting schoolkids. Id imagine there are now quite a few who think joing a protest is an excellent idea. Anything like this happening will make matters increasingly difficult for the libs, who are going to reach the point they cannot support the legislation. Cameron could lose his government over this if it goes badly.

    As to what the protest is about, well, if we intend to send 50% of the population to university under the current system, there will have to be fees. It is a huge con trick, but people are now emeshed in it. A degree probably will not help you later as regards what you learn, but if you are expected to have that piece of paper then you have to get it. The more people get one, the more you need it, even though its three years and 50K wasted. The conservative government fostered this con trick, I would say originally as a make work scheme to keep down youth unemployment. So now half the population wastes 3 years doing nothing useful, while we put up retriement age 3 years to compensate.
     
  11. midlifebear

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    I agree. Higher education in the UK should be completely eliminated. Only the monied class should be allowed to rule. As many jobs as possible should be outsourced to South East Asia and Africa. But Soylent Green should be available to everyone, for free, just to have something to snack on.
     
  12. dandelion

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    tut tut. I believe in competitive education and free schools for bright kids. Those are the ones who ought to be going to university. If degrees really are necessary for the country to survive, then they should be free. Working for three years to help your country ought to be enough without being forced to pay to do it.
     
  13. superbot

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    50% of these 'students' are gonna end up working in HMV or Asda anyhow.In ten years time there are going to be toooooooo many graduates chasing fewer and fewer jobs,everyone knows that so most of their education will be for nowt.Cuts could be made by perhaps making business studies and media studies (every under-achievers choice) illegal and replacing them with something more relevant such as netball and pottery degrees!!!!...Problem solved!
     
  14. B_New End

    B_New End New Member

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    Socialism doesn't work.

    Giving everything you have to the banksters is the way to happiness and prosperity. Why isn't anybody in the streets demanding more bailouts?
     
  15. alx

    alx
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    Well I was planning on going to uni to study Marine Biology, However after doing my A levels I had a rethink.
    Getting a degree is no longer 'special' I don't want to put my money, time, effort into a degree only to get an avarage office job. No thanks.

    Young people are lazy, most don't have enough ingenuity to make something of themselves career wise. Hence they take the easiest route, get a degree and follow the crowd.

    They should pay high fees, Higher education is NOT a right but a privilege. Traditional subjects should be taken by the academically talented and should be funded....

    ...Art, Media, want to do a useless degree go pay for it outta your own pocket, not mine.

    The whole education system needs reforming, UKIP have the right idea when it comes to education.
     
  16. superbot

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    Spot on!
     
  17. B_crackoff

    B_crackoff New Member

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    There's a lot of truth here!

    But why does it cost £6K/ann to educate kids at Secondary level, but £9K/ann at University?

    The hours are halved to 12-14/week actual teaching at Uni; there's no form tutoring or mentoring. I think there must be an enormous amount of waste somewhere, somehow.

    Dandelion's quite right about the con trick, but why FFS do they not:

    Allow you to offset your university fees & student loan interest against tax? If it was a business, you'd be allowed to. Laughably, should a student wish to emigrate & avoid their debts, the only control or security is -Self declaration!

    Just limit student places?

    Allow untenable universities to fail?

    Publicise the growing number of decent universities where you can study online?

    Tax the crap out of people who never paid fees 20,30, or 40 years ago?

    If the kids are lazy, it is a direct product of our mediocre leftist media & educational unions, who for years have tried to get rid of the idea of competition, spelling & grammar, & the correct answer in Maths, rather than the workings(!?),imagining that we live in some competitive vacuum.

    We went from having only 25% getting 5 Gcses at A-C, 20 years ago to 50%. The IQ of the nation hasn't changed a jot.

    We went from having linear courses with a final examination, to not just modular, but modular courses where units could be retaken until the highest possible mark achieved!

    How is one to sort out the intellectual elite like that?

    There is no drive to be the best, or excellence in al,l being fostered by attempting to match the achievements of one's peers.

    We have weak willed teaching (from all sources) that's like the "Ignorance Is Bliss" message Orwell warned about.

    Life isn't cozy. Things change - quickly. Don't coast - succeed!

    But we need a bloody new Government to put that message across, & a media willing to support it.

    What we have now, however, is a terrible pastiche of those newspaper adverts which used to advertise jobs, after paying an upfront fee to work.

    What next? Paying to train at McDonald's? Don't laugh - it really could happen.

    The UK is so full of paper pushers, who don't really do, & have no understanding of making anything, that I guess they can't believe anyone has talent without the right piece of paper. And while these mediocre misfits rule, nothing is going to change.
     
    #17 B_crackoff, Nov 25, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2010
  18. alx

    alx
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    Pretty much anyone can become a Secondary teacher, a uni teacher needs to know his/hers shit. These expertise costs money?

    Reform the educational system?

    Teaching standards are very poor, well in my school they were. You are taught to pass an exam and thats as far as teaching goes.

    Media willing to support! That will never happen they have their own agendas.

    A new Government? LibLabCon, they are all as bad as each other. We won't get anywhere with these parties.
     
  19. Speculator

    Speculator New Member

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    Ironically at a time when uni numbers have soared the need for a university education has declined due to the spread of the net. 90% of what is taught at British universities could be learned for a fraction of the cost at home with a few books and a broadband connection.

    A university education was useful in the days when knowledge was held under lock and key by stuffy scholars, the deomcratisation of information has changed all that. I've learnt more by reading blogs than I ever did from 5 years at secondary school. And if I need to know something? I consult wiki, or use multiple sources to check for bias.

    It makes me think that univeristy should be the preserve of the academic elites, there's no need for average people to go there when there are other routes they can utilise to achieve the same result. Its just a mass waste of resources. What is society going to benefit from most, 50% of people going to uni getting a crap expensive education or 5% going with a focus on quality, with the possibility of that 5% making huge gains for both the country and humanity?

    I know which one I would pick.
     
    #19 Speculator, Nov 25, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2010
  20. B_crackoff

    B_crackoff New Member

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    Lecturers don't get paid that much more than teachers! 25% more pay, but 50% fewer hours per student, & 50% more cost.

    An easy way for universities to cut costs would be to reduce the number of optional modules. Any decent university course starts off with 60-80 students in its lectures - any module attracting less than 30-40 should be dropped.

    The cost/ student is £9,000/ (ave. hours of 13.333/wk * 30 teaching weeks) & I'm leaving out the drop in hours through dissertations. That = £22.50/hr per student!

    At school, if you include registration times as well, it is £6,000/ (ave. hours of 27.5/wk * 40). That = £5.45/hr per student.

    I can't believe that lecturers prepare, or mark more than teachers.

    Higher education costs 4 times more. Is that transparent enough for everyone!:biggrin1:

    BBC NEWS | UK | Education | Lecturers' average pay hits £42K

    I still feel bloody cold!:cool22:

    I'm coming around to the idea that Secondary education, well at least 14 plus, should be privatised in some way, if there are enthusiastic expert educational providers available; we could have schools, not only giving a generalised education, but knocking out electricians, plumbers, as well as scientists - not just admin fodder.

    Teach physics & chemistry in a more practical way. People should have a general education, but at the moment, their aptitudes aren't tested, or recognised, & there's no mechanism to steer them towards specialisms that might enthuse them.

    I remember my 1st week in chemistry, & asking exactly why certain elements bound together. I was told just accept it - we won't cover that for years. Teaching us about electrons at the start would have been a bloody better idea, because the answer "it just does", doesn't make sense to anyone with a brain

    It's all been one size fits all since the 60s, & the UK has played a blinder since then, eh?

    There's so much slack in the UK. We are led by directionless mediocrities, obsessed with petty regulations & form filling - & that's all the education system is fit to produce.
     
    #20 B_crackoff, Nov 25, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2010
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