Student Fees

[Jason]

I would guess that whatever you think about corporal punishment, withdrawing it has been part of a general lowering of standards of discipline. Everyone must have had experience at school of good teachers who could easily maintain control of a class and others who were hopeless.

Agreed, discipline is key. I think we have a real problem today in that teachers do not have adequate mechanisms for discipline.

Corporal puishment is the UK disciplinary extreme which continued well into the late 1990s in some schools, with many even ignoring the law which outlawed it so that it lived on for a while even when illegal. It seems to have continued in the UK for far longer than on the European continent or in North America. My school used it infrequently, maybe two or three times a year. Probably there were occasions when the punishment provided a quick closure to a disciplinary matter (and an alternative to exclusion) and I wouldn't want to argue that it was wrong in all cases. It certainly contributed to an environment of discipline. I know of one case where in my view it was abused, and this potential for abuse is the very strong argument for it not being used. However I'm aware today of comprehensives where the breakdown of discipline is such that bullying is endemic (and unresolved) and teachers subject to violence - this isn't acceptable either.

My recollection is that teachers who could impose discipline were capable of giving some draconian punishments - though they almost never needed to take this step. My school had an extensive range of available punishments (detention, lines, additional school work, tasks for masters, exclusion from a class, ritualised humiliation, holding a stress position) all of which were applied with some freedom. There was also a pretty brutal playground culture which established its own order.

 

[D_Abraham Slinkin]

Personally as a student, I am opposed to the fee rise.
Even in Greece and Portugal, countries with way bigger debt crises than ours, they haven't raised Tuition fees.

Even in Ireland, a country which is really on the brink of collapse, even with all the harsh unimaginable cuts, they only raised tuition fees to £2,500 (€3000)

So the British governments argument that the rise is 'unavoidable' is the biggest load of BULL ever. And it's sickening how many Daily-Mail-Reading-Zombie-Tories just spurt off Camerons Rhetoric.

-

In regards to the protests and violence, where people were hurt and PRIVATE property damaged I am disgusted - smashing up cafes and shops is just vandalism and it harms the cause.

But the police tactics were Illegal in my opinion. 'Kettling' without letting people out for food or water is basically illegal arrest - it's like something akin to Dictatorships.

Like Poll Tax, we can defeat this illegitimate government and stop their actions before the condemn Britain to several generations of poverty just to keep the current rich comfy during their retirement.

It was the 40/50/60 year olds who caused this recession by living beyond their means - now they're making the 10/20/30 year olds and the unborn pay for their mess?
Not on my watch.

Britain has been rid of its Socialist Government for barely 6 months and look at it. We're going to end up like America at this rate - where the poor are treated like they were in the Middle Ages.
Parliament will burn soon - and I'll cheer.

 

[Jason]

Reply to tl991:

The UK has to make cuts somewhere - and increase taxes too. The international consensus is that the present balance between cuts and tax rises is about right.

Of course it would be possible to cut something other than student funding. This is a coherent view. But anyone seriously wishing to advocate this view needs to set out what should be cut instead, and why this is a better area to make the cuts. And they should be willing to defend that view against the group receiving those cuts.

The UK student fees problem is exacerbated by the percentage of the 18 year old cohort who become students. We're well over 40% in UK (and aiming for 50%) against say 20% in Switzerland. We could solve the present issue by halving the number of students at universities. Personally I have some sympathy with this solution, but I know few agree with me, and it is just not on the cards.

The new student fees in England will be far cheaper than those in the USA. The detail of the structure is important - the payback structure is much improved on the present student fees. Universities are recording the highest ever number of applicants for 2011 and expect figures to remain high subsequently. The contention that students will decide not to go to university does not appear to be correct - rather students will go and will pay.

******************
The violence at the demo has lost almost all public sympathy for students. It is not just Daily Mail readers who feel that kettling on Westminster Bridge was far too moderate and students should have been encouraged with a prod to take a swim in the Thames. If students care to continue with violence they will meet enhanced police tactics (water canon is next on the list). And public support will not be with the students.

The entitlement generation - today's students - must learn the age old lesson that rights and responsibilities go hand in hand. The assertion that kettling somehow infringes a right fails to accept that the right to free movement has been rendered void either by violence or by associating with those who are violent. The police have a responsibility to defend life and property in London and a right to use all reaonable means to do that - and kettling is a very moderate response. The next step is water canon, which if it is used will cause injury. Notwithstanding it passes the test of a proportional response.

Before you consider cheering while parliament burns maybe you should visit one of the hell-holes overseas where anarchy has triumphed over government. But if the entitlement generation does want to have a go at creating anarchy the upshot will be massively increased support for the Coalition and for both parties come the next election.

 

[D_Abraham Slinkin]

Reply to tl991:

The UK has to make cuts somewhere - and increase taxes too. The international consensus is that the present balance between cuts and tax rises is about right.

Of course it would be possible to cut something other than student funding. This is a coherent view. But anyone seriously wishing to advocate this view needs to set out what should be cut instead, and why this is a better area to make the cuts. And they should be willing to defend that view against the group receiving those cuts.

The UK student fees problem is exacerbated by the percentage of the 18 year old cohort who become students. We're well over 40% in UK (and aiming for 50%) against say 20% in Switzerland. We could solve the present issue by halving the number of students at universities. Personally I have some sympathy with this solution, but I know few agree with me, and it is just not on the cards.

The new student fees in England will be far cheaper than those in the USA. The detail of the structure is important - the payback structure is much improved on the present student fees. Universities are recording the highest ever number of applicants for 2011 and expect figures to remain high subsequently. The contention that students will decide not to go to university does not appear to be correct - rather students will go and will pay.

******************
The violence at the demo has lost almost all public sympathy for students. It is not just Daily Mail readers who feel that kettling on Westminster Bridge was far too moderate and students should have been encouraged with a prod to take a swim in the Thames. If students care to continue with violence they will meet enhanced police tactics (water canon is next on the list). And public support will not be with the students.

The entitlement generation - today's students - must learn the age old lesson that rights and responsibilities go hand in hand. The assertion that kettling somehow infringes a right fails to accept that the right to free movement has been rendered void either by violence or by associating with those who are violent. The police have a responsibility to defend life and property in London and a right to use all reaonable means to do that - and kettling is a very moderate response. The next step is water canon, which if it is used will cause injury. Notwithstanding it passes the test of a proportional response.

Before you consider cheering while parliament burns maybe you should visit one of the hell-holes overseas where anarchy has triumphed over government. But if the entitlement generation does want to have a go at creating anarchy the upshot will be massively increased support for the Coalition and for both parties come the next election.

Ahaha, of course I'm not advocating the actual burning of parliament - it was hyperbole for dramatic effect

I'm definately with you as for Student Numbers though - but I'd look more towards the German Model - where over half of 18 year olds go onto do on the job advanced apprenticeship style courses.

Also, we should levy government subsidy on degrees which we need, aka, if we can forecast a shortage of medical graduates the government offers a greater subsidy for those - and also the government should withdraw some subsidy for over-subscribed courses - aka, how many photographers and sociologists do we really need? Where as we need way more Language & Science graduates.

Overall, I simply don't agree with the need to cut so quickly - but I am a Keynesianist. I think in 2 years time we will look back and regret this course of action when we are back in recession.

And I believe this current government does not have a mandate - the Conservatives didn't gain 50% of the votes NOR the seats - I believe given the choice most Libdem voters would have preferred Labour - but FPTP does this. Therefore, I think the actions of the current government are illegal and the street protests are a sign that I'm not alone in this mantra.

Ohh and a slight aside - I don't really agree that Democracy is the most important thing at all. Look at China, not a Democracy, then look at Ivory Coast - a democracy. I know which one I'd rather live in. Democracy is idealic, but should be the cherry on top - it isn't essential. That is the main problem with America's war in the Middle East - Iraqis and Afghanis may now get to vote - but their lives are probably on the whole worse off than before the wars - some parts of the world aren't ready for democracy yet - just like Europe wasn't in the 16th/17th century. They need instead strong control.

 

[B_crackoff]

Nice to see a debate!

Reply to tl991:

The UK has to make cuts somewhere - and increase taxes too.

Does anyone know who MR Micawber was!:wink:

I seem to remember a Not The 9 O'Clock News spoof about a man who kept giving to charity even though he was putting himself into deeper debt too.

A minimum of £10Bn is going to the 3rd world, £15Bn lost to the EU & it's unwanted (they only fund ones we don't want) projects.

There's a start in fiscal prudence. Don't give if you are massively in debt, structurally, or annually!

The international consensus is that the present balance between cuts and tax rises is about right.

But that consensus is driven by the Internationalist bankers!


The UK student fees problem is exacerbated by the percentage of the 18 year old cohort who become students. We're well over 40% in UK (and aiming for 50%) against say 20% in Switzerland. We could solve the present issue by halving the number of students at universities. Personally I have some sympathy with this solution, but I know few agree with me, and it is just not on the cards.

Ok - The Govt says it NEEDS qualified labour that has been through the uni system - it is not just an asset, but a necessary requirement for the UK. Why not just charge those who try to emigrate with their subsidized skills?


******************
The violence at the demo has lost almost all public sympathy for students. It is not just Daily Mail readers who feel that kettling on Westminster Bridge was far too moderate and students should have been encouraged with a prod to take a swim in the Thames. If students care to continue with violence they will meet enhanced police tactics (water canon is next on the list). And public support will not be with the students.

True. However IF THEY'D SHOWN BURNING BABIES & WOMEN IN IRAQ & AFGHANISTAN, how long would public support for those wars lasted!:wink:

The media thing is a smokescreen - a tool of the establishment - show burning cars - not burning babies. I've been at a demo - what's been said is just shit - it's the age old tactics of provocation for a response to clamp down against.

There were endless hours of the same flashpoint being repeated on Sky & the BBC - nothing of the true endless hours of tedium suffered by the protestors.

The entitlement generation - today's students - must learn the age old lesson that rights and responsibilities go hand in hand.

The entitlement generation are the baby boomers. They EXPECT massive pensions that they have not provided for, early retirement, & free medical care - AND NOT to pay for the £trillions of liabilities bthat they have incurred.

Let students pay for their full fees-fine - but the commensurate income tax for them would dwindle if they didn't have to pay for their decadent, parasitic, incompetent forebears!

Pay fees yes - pay for old age pensions, interest on debt, or healthcare NO.

That's equitable - that's fair. There's no rational argument against it, once one goes down the pay for your benefits route.

The assertion that kettling somehow infringes a right fails to accept that the right to free movement has been rendered void either by violence or by associating with those who are violent. The police have a responsibility to defend life and property in London and a right to use all reaonable means to do that - and kettling is a very moderate response.

Sorry Jase - Bollocks - I had a car nicked, burnt out, & the police laughed! A little graffiti, & a few broken windows haven't cost much at all yet. We're not anywhere near 6 figures for public disorder. Things happening to Govt property should bring it home to them how much they should resolve damage to private property.

Big deal - a car get's burnt etc. It's only front page news because they want it to be. It happens all the time - case closed 8 hours later.

Overall, I simply don't agree with the need to cut so quickly - but I am a Keynesianist. I think in 2 years time we will look back and regret this course of action when we are back in recession.

And I believe this current government does not have a mandate - the Conservatives didn't gain 50% of the votes NOR the seats - I believe given the choice most Libdem voters would have preferred Labour - but FPTP does this. Therefore, I think the actions of the current government are illegal and the street protests are a sign that I'm not alone in this mantra.

Well that's a bit of a spurious argument. Labour would have done this too, & Milliband has said he won't repeal it.

The last Labour Govt got 1% less than the Tories & had a good majority, & in 2001, Labour got 400+ seats, & only had 25,000 more votes than this lot.

This is a tired old line. The Coalition is the only administration since the last Coalition during the war that has 50%+ of the popular vote.

Whatever it's policies - it's the most legitimate post war administration - that's unquestionable!

 

[B_crackoff]

Even though it doesn't advance the student cause one iota...

... WTF are Scottish, Welsh & Irish MPs doing voting on this? It's nothing to do with them! It's time to get their sorry arses out of purely English matters, in the same way they are solely allowed to deal with their domestic matters.

They have no democratic mandate WHATSOEVER - LOL they can't even vote on their own stuff, as their National assemblies deal with it.

What's the point of them - can't they go part time - & can we cut their pay?!

 

[Drifterwood]

"Why not just charge those who try to emigrate with their subsidized skills?"

I agree with this. If we have paid £250K for you to become a Doctor or a top Engineer, then the benefit belongs in the UK. If you want to leave, then repay it, or have whoever has head hunted you repay it.

IMO Higher Education needs to take a long hard look at itself. If it was producing highly trained people in all spheres of life, then I would be more than happy that it is completely free - no loans at all, it would be a wholly worthwhile national investment.

 

[dandelion]

My recollection is that teachers who could impose discipline were capable of giving some draconian punishments - though they almost never needed to take this step

Yes, I think anyone who was using corporal punishment regularly had clearly failed. Half the point is having it as an ultimate weapon to be feared. However, we are also now into issues about whether a teacher can so much as hold a pupil to restrain their violence, which is pure insanity.

Before you consider cheering while parliament burns maybe you should visit one of the hell-holes overseas where anarchy has triumphed over government.

My own view is that britain has avoided this because on the whole it has been a benevolent dictatorship by whoever happens to be in power for quite some time. It also helps that by world standards we have been rich for a long time, so there is less to complain about. It is much tougher to be seen to be fair when times get harder, even if times are still pretty good. Nonetheless, it is essential to listen to objectors and be clear why you think them wrong. I personally think the tiny amount of violence so far has benefitted the student protestors because it has added to the publicity. I also think it dangerous for the government to harp on about the violence, because people like me will see this purely as an attempt to avoid answering the real issue (which it is). The government must clearly carry opinion with it.

But if the entitlement generation does want to have a go at creating anarchy the upshot will be massively increased support for the Coalition and for both parties come the next election.

That isnt obvious to me. There will naturally be a backlash against the current government by everyone who is losing out. The conservatives will be aided by having a traditionaly more left party, the libs, on board with them, but as we have just seen this doesnt cut much ice with the people affected.

You call them the entitlement generation, but this is hardly their fault. They have been taught well by their parents, and, for example, by the example of those city bankers who are still held up as untouchable. The only possible lesson to learn from this is demand and you shall receive.

Some of the libs have been arguing that the new system of student funding will be fairer for the poorest than the old system. Since they are putting this forward in mitigation for their actions, I would presume it also happens to be true. The theory of free state education is that it benefits the state, that is why we do it. I think the same is true of the NHS. But just as the NHS draws a line and says it will not pay for some of the more expensive and least cost effective treatments, so the education system does the same. I think the arguments which would have been made post-war for the creation of a free university system still apply, but they were for a university sytem educating (guess) 5%. Should we fund the current additional 45%?

 

[eurotop40]

"Why not just charge those who try to emigrate with their subsidized skills?"

I agree with this. If we have paid £250K for you to become a Doctor or a top Engineer, then the benefit belongs in the UK. If you want to leave, then repay it, or have whoever has head hunted you repay it.

...

This is used to be the policy of the so demonized eastern european communist countries. Interesting...

 

[Drifterwood]

This is used to be the policy of the so demonized eastern european communist countries. Interesting...

So what happened to eidgenossenschaft?

Why would you want to invest in someone, only to see them give the benefit to someone else at your cost?

 

[eurotop40]

If someone goes to Swiss state universities and wants to emigrate nobody forces him/her to pay back their tuition fees. This is obviously not very productive from the state point of view if you have a mass emigration. However, being a liberal democracy, we don't do as e.g. the romanians under Ceausescu. I know personally of one case in which the romanian bride of a swiss guy was forced to pay back her supposed tuition fees before they issued her a passport.

 

[Drifterwood]

And?

Sometimes there is payback. Normally through taxation, as I have done, so I feel that this State has done rather well out of providing me with free higher education.

You can't feel entitled to take all the time.

 

[eurotop40]

Would you like a system like the one in Ceausescu's Romania, or the CSSR?

 

[Drifterwood]

Do you know the expression to throw the baby out with the bath water?

 

[eurotop40]

Still, you cannot impose taxes on people who want to emigrate.

 

[vince]

Good god. 9000 for public university fees? I think that is outrageous. Is this just fees and tuition? Or does it cover books, dorms, etc., as well?

 

[Drifterwood]

Still, you cannot impose taxes on people who want to emigrate.

I think you'll find that you can. You'll also find that if I wished to study in a foreign country that they would charge me. Why should it be free if I am going to become a foreigner from my own country? The net effect is the same.

Good god. 9000 for public university fees? I think that is outrageous. Is this just fees and tuition? Or does it cover books, dorms, etc., as well?

Correct and it does not include living costs.

 

[vince]

I think you'll find that you can. You'll also find that if I wished to study in a foreign country that they would charge me. Why should it be free if I am going to become a foreigner from my own country? The net effect is the same.

Correct and it does not include living costs.

We paid 7500 dollars (4700 GBP) per year in undergrad fees at one of Canada's top schools. That's the out-of-province rate. If we were resident in Quebec, it would be about $3500. International students pay about 23,000. The graduate school fees we are now paying are about the same.

I agree that people receiving state subsidized educations should be charged if they emigrate. In Canada over the years there has been a large brain-drain of highly trained medical professionals leaving for the USA where due to the free-market trade in medicine, they can earn much more money. Why should we pay to train doctors and nurses for the Americans?

Are these fee increases in the UK being used to increase funding? Or to make up for budget cuts? The UK is already spending below the OECD average as a percentage of GDP.

Perhaps less money spent on trying to punch above their weight on the international stage, and fewer Chieftain tanks, nuclear subs and aircraft carriers, would help control the UK government's deficits more effectively than squeezing students and their families for every last drop of blood.

 

[Jason]

Whatever it's policies - it's the most legitimate post war administration - that's unquestionable!

Yes. And one of the most statistically legitimate governments anywhere in the world.

The Lib Dem pledge was a pre-election stunt which has backfired on them. It is almost as if they were so convinced they were going to be in opposition that they did not think this one through. It would have been a major problem whether they were in coalition with Conservative or Labour. Probably they are just hoping to forget about it.

What we do have is a Coalition agreement which has the best policies from Con and Lib Dem. IMO this is better than we would have got from either of these parties alone.

As we come up to the next election the Lib Dems will have had 5 years experience of working with the Conservatives and will have worked out solutions to many of their differences. I think the Labour manifesto is likely to look unattractive to the Lib Dems. The idea of some sort of Con-Lib Dem electoral pact will surely be on the cards. The dream scenario would be a new Lib Con party polling 50%+.

 

[TomCat84]

California's top public university system, the University of California group of schools, is around that much- and that's one of the cheapest systems in the country. Welcome to the land of expensive top-tier education.