Stupid White Men - Michael Moore

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by Imported, Jun 2, 2003.

  1. Imported

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    Javierdude22: We've had som ethreads related to this topic already, ya know, about what we think of Bush, the upcoming presidential elections, or US international policy.

    I guess i kinda have strong feelings about Bush in general, and his policies...im not a fervent anti-globalist....but i do have an interest in politics, especially concerning topics i feel strong about.

    So i bought a book (yehaaa!!!) last weekend, called
    * Stupid White Men * by Michael Moore.

    I had seen his film Bowling for Columbine, and was kinda shocked and even more interested in the subject matter. Thats why i bought the book. And i must say, he put some very stricking things together in his book, added one plus one, and i mujst say, the outcome aint pretty. Sometimes i wonder why people dont pick up these astounding facts on Bush and his administration.

    So my question.....did anyone read the book, and whatya think of it?

    does it make you wonder? Or do you think he wrote a buncha hoowey (??) with a very biased view?

    Let me know
     
  2. Pecker

    Pecker Retired Moderator
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    Of course he's biased.

    He's also not very factual and does little research these days to back up his claims.

    Moore doesn't cite sources for the most part, making his statistics quite unscientific.   He only notes that readers "can keep track of what Bush did and does during his administration" by reading Molly Ivins' syndicated column and the Web sites www.smirkingchimp.com and www.bushwatch.com, Bush haters all.

    Even though overinvestment during the tech boom and a sharp drop in business spending are ultimately responsible for the current economic state of affairs, Moore blames the downturn on a conspiracy by the rich to keep their thumbs on the poor.

    For some reason, along with many Americans, many Europeans are enamoured of this man's railings.

    I read Moore, Ivins, The New York Times and internet rantings with an eye on their prejudice:  they simply cannot accept the fact that Al Bore did not become President in 2000.

    Pecker
     
  3. Imported

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    Javierdude22: Ok...but truth be told, i noticed that you are Republican biased as well Pecker...

    I wasnt even talking about statistics, cause i know very well he probably didnt use SPSS to come up with numbers....but thats not the point. The pints made are about certain procedures, facts, that independent news media came up with, and that are totally being ignored. Or worse, the Bush Case speaks for itsself...he has súch a bad trackrecord in school, business, and judicial, that you háve to be thinking: how did this man become the most powerful man in the world?!?

    I had a converstaion in the US with someone on how the current Washington DC mayor could have become mayor (again). I dont know his name, but he was a convicted felon!!!

    How in the hell do those things come about?

    And sure: his conspiracy theory on corporate America is farfetched, but if you read carefully youll notice the sarcasm and the playfullness in his use of style. He knows very well that its not like that, but just to make a point about how crooked some things are. And what about his remarks on racism!? It has to make you think.
     
  4. Imported

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    mindseye: *sigh* I have this love-hate relationship with Michael Moore. In general, I like the message he's trying to get out, and I wish there were more journalists and filmmakers who were willing to take on corporate and governmental abuse.

    On the other hand, I think a significant part of Moore's motivation is to call attention to himself. He'll engage in a lot of ill-thought-out publicity stunts that make it hard to take his points seriously.

    He's this decade's Sinead O'Connor -- someone who lets their need to be the center of controversial attention spoil their own message.
     
  5. Synergistic

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    [quote author=Javierdude23 link=board=99;num=1054548667;start=0#2 date=06/02/03 at 09:35:30] how did this man become the most powerful man in the world?!?[/quote]

    Well you see, every four years there is something called a presidential election, you should've paid attention in civics.
     
  6. Imported

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    mindseye: [quote author=nlatimer link=board=99;num=1054548667;start=0#4 date=06/02/03 at 11:45:52]

    Well you see, every four years there is something called a presidential election, you should've paid attention in civics.[/quote]


    Bzzztt! I got an A in Civics. Civics never taught me that the US Supreme Court could arbitrate a state election. What it did teach me was that judges have a responsibility to recuse themselves if they have a conflict of interest, such as (for example) being appointed by one party's father.
     
  7. Imported

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    Javierdude22: [quote author=nlatimer link=board=99;num=1054548667;start=0#4 date=06/02/03 at 11:45:52]

    Well you see, every four years there is something called a presidential election, you should've paid attention in civics.[/quote]

    Well you see, every time i see a remark with a note of hostility i feel like i hit the right spot.

    Again, for the record, i was referring to people that actually read the book, and from there id like to have a discussion. Theres a thread already for general support on Bush & Co. or general dismay.

    So again, if you READ the BOOK (you''l find it in the funny looking buildings called 'bookstores' or 'library'), what did you think of the points made, and did it make you think differently on current politics. Or yeah, like mindseye said, whatya think of how Michael Moore likes to get attention, cause you might very well be right.
     
  8. Synergistic

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    Listen those votes were counted about three times, and each time what happened? Bush won.

    Is that clear, Bush won, get over it.
     
  9. Imported

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    Javierdude22: [quote author=nlatimer link=board=99;num=1054548667;start=0#7 date=06/02/03 at 13:48:16]Listen those votes were counted about three times, and each time what happened? Bush won.

    Is that clear, Bush won, get over it.[/quote]

    Dude listen....this is a discussion board, and you obviously didnt understand the bookpart...the book has some facts about the proceedings of the count....so it seds new light. So read it, then come back with arguments, thats how it works.

    I know it doesnt come on video or on a computegame but still....its worth it
     
  10. Imported

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    7x6andchg: I'm with Mindseye on this one - insofar as somewhere between "Roger and Me" and "Bowling for Columbine" Michael Moore took a step into the self-promotion realm that detracted from his real message(s).

    I find his comments, and books, and movies (all three) to be at the same time insightful yet insolent...

    7x6&C
     
  11. Synergistic

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    You're telling me that he is the only person in the world who has come across these "facts" and the only one to put them into print. Otherwise, chances are I've heard it before. I'm not gonna waste my money support this hack though.
     
  12. Imported

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    7x6andchg: Well he does tend to put what "facts" (whether or not they are facts is not mine to comment on) in an entertaining way...I know quite a few people who thought "Roger and Me" was a comedy and not a documentary (admittedly a documentary with some really skewed editing.)

    If, just like Raalexx said above, he touches a nerve, and makes people angry then I think Mr. Moore believes he is doing his job.

    7x6&C
     
  13. Imported

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    AnonyMs: You can get a job touching people's nerves and making them angry? Please do not let the cashier at the local Wal-Mart know that... she is scary enough already!
     
  14. Imported

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    7x6andchg: Well you have to make it your job, Nony...it takes YEARS of practice. Which Mr. Moore has....in spades.

    All the cashiers at MY Wal-Mart (and don't even get me STARTED on the evil that is Wal-Mart, living in a small town) are nice, down-home Wisconsin folk.

    ;)

    7x6&C
     
  15. Synergistic

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  16. Imported

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    Javierdude22: Well finally...some retoric, in the form of a website but what the hell...

    Very true nltimer...or David Hardy....Bowling for Columbine can hardly be considered factual. I knew that already when i was watching it.

    Thing is though, that facts are not what the docu/film (who cares what it is) is about. Its about making a point. Although he obviously misused some information, i dont see anything in the website on things i excatly think are VERY good pionts. So Germany has 1476 gunrelated shootings (information also from an unknown website)...instead of 381. Its still half of the Us if you do it percentage wise of population. In Holland we hardly have any gunrelated murders (50 maybe) on a population of 17 million. What about his referral to UK gunrelated shootings?? It didnt even reach 50 on a huge population. What about Canada having 7 millions weapons on a population of 30 or so million with a low percentage of gunrelated shootings.

    Thats the thing, i hear a lot about how he is not factual, but he is VERY factual in what point he makes.

    But enough about Bowling for Columbine.

    Cause uhm....ya know.....i kinda was referring to THE BOOK!!!!!...

    Points made in the book about proceedings of Bush election, racism, corporate America, ignorance on many many fields...

    I was hoping to discuss THAT....

    Thanx..
     
  17. Synergistic

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    Well I have a problem with that. If you have to lie, to make your point, it can't be a very good point.
     
  18. jonb

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    And if you have to ad hominem, it can't be a pretty good point either.
     
  19. Synergistic

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    How do you mean, are you saying that what I said isn't logical?
     
  20. Imported

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    Javierdude22: [quote author=nlatimer link=board=99;num=1054548667;start=0#16 date=06/04/03 at 12:32:47]Well I have a problem with that. If you have to lie, to make your point, it can't be a very good point.[/quote]

    Ok...i think we should ban the Republican Party if you feel strong about what you said, cause well, the Iraq War was full of lies.

    'Iraq has weapons of mass destructions, we should invade them'
    'That is the only and main reason why we should bomb Iraq'

    *two months later*

    Wolfowitz: o yeah wait....we lied....we just said that so people would be ok with it, we did it for other reasons.

    I agree with you Nlatimer...so ill send a letter to Bush to cancel the party and resign.

    Anywho...


    Do other people have an opinion about this? And i mean something more than one sentence or websites??

    Thanx
     
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