Success with women = Lie

blg3floor3

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As I said before, my goal isn't to sleep with women, it's to find a romantic partner. Following your method would not get me what I want.

Well that's exactly the point. It depends on what you want.

Yeah, if you want a relationship, then the whole honesty and truthfulness and "being real" and "being yourself" and "finding someone compatible with my hopes, dreams, personality, interests, etc." thing is generally the way to be. Because yes, a relationship based on lies and false images and pretenses isn't going to last. But if you're just looking for some friday night pussy on the other hand, and you don't care if you ever see her or hear from her again, depending on where you are and what kind of girl you're aiming for, it's going to take an entirely different approach. That's where the "not Mr. Right, but Mr. Right Now" stuff comes in. Players, alpha males, pick up artists, the seduction community, mack daddies, etc.

No one is saying "go out and be a lying son of a bitch, treat her like you don't ever want to fuck her in a million years, and lie your ass off every step of the way" if you want a long term, deep, meaningful relationship. Yeah, that'd be dumb as shit.

The whole point of everything in this thread is A) How you define success (getting some pussy tonight, or getting a soulmate) and B) what you have to do in order to succeed based on your definition thereof.
 
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B_Bonky

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I agree with your post except for the "just be yourself" part.. what is "yourself" ?

You aren't bound to some defined "self" that stays stagnant. You are a million different forces. There is no "yourself" that you can "just be." "Yourself" changes from one millisecond to the next.
 

blg3floor3

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I agree with your post except for the "just be yourself" part.. what is "yourself" ?

You aren't bound to some defined "self" that stays stagnant. You are a million different forces. There is no "yourself" that you can "just be." "Yourself" changes from one millisecond to the next.

Just saying what everyone else says :tongue:. I know what you're getting at. Certain parts of who I am are different when I'm with close or intellectual friends, which is different than when I'm with my female friends, or alpha male friends, or thug rapper friends, or stoner friends, or the stodgy old guy at work, or the nice wholesome poster-child-church-goer married MILF at the dealership, etc.

Certain aspects of ones self are different around different people, but I think there's also some parts of a person that are more or less a baseline regardless of most situations or people.
 

B_Bonky

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Certain aspects of ones self are different around different people, but I think there's also some parts of a person that are more or less a baseline regardless of most situations or people.

I agree, but then you have to ask yourself, WHY are those aspects there? I think you'll find that most of those parts of you that you cherish as "you" have been put there by others.
 

blg3floor3

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I agree, but then you have to ask yourself, WHY are those aspects there? I think you'll find that most of those parts of you that you cherish as "you" have been put there by others.

What I mean is, for example, the cleanliness of my language depends on who I am. I generally go with whoever the lowest common denominator is. Chalk that up to INFJ, introversion, whatever. But my self confidence doesn't usually change, regardless of who I'm with. I'm not meek and timid and shy and lacking in confidence with one person or group of people, but then Mr. feel like a million bucks around others. It's pretty constantly high and solid, regardless.
 

D_Humper E Bogart

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Go Bonky, go Bonky!
Woooooooo!


All right, the one-man cheerleading act is over. Nothing to see here. :)

On-sort-of-topic. Isn't it interesting that when people have personalities that are broad and varied, it is labeled as a mental condition? Sounds to me like mental conditioning to be generic chipboard come to think of it.
 

helgaleena

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Isn't it interesting that when people have personalities that are broad and varied, it is labeled as a mental condition? Sounds to me like mental conditioning to be generic chipboard come to think of it.

So also is very rigid thinking labeled as a mental condition. You and Bonky are changing the subject from use of honesty to definition of honesty. It's not much help in answering Pitbull imo.

My possibly too rigid imo.
 

D_Humper E Bogart

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So also is very rigid thinking labeled as a mental condition. You and Bonky are changing the subject from use of honesty to definition of honesty. It's not much help in answering Pitbull imo.

My possibly too rigid imo.
I think the original topic may have run it's course. As for myself, I'm not even playing the dating game (I use my virginity as a barrier) so it's really between you and Bonky, where you're a lot more open while Bonky is driven to know what he wants, he gets it, and more importantly, has a good time and makes sure the women are treated right.

I believe that all men have secrets. Sometimes it's convenient to simply hide them and sometimes it's a lot more prudent to just lie, because if we're both honest, the number of 'attractive' men who are just that through all their naked flaws is nearly 0.

Bonky argues that buffing up one's social status, financial worth or other non-physical aspects is a boon in attractiveness. If you ever visit a city's business centre, you will notice that the men will wear excessively expensive suits, or do their hair in absurd amounts of gel, or will rent limos, stuff like that; all to make themselves more attractive to women even if it is normally outside their means.

I have made the mention, that some of these people are actually dangerous and many wife-beaters, rapists and even the 7/7 terrorists were very attractive and well-sexed men, but they lied about their true nature, perhaps even from themselves.

Well far be it for me to be an expert on relationships! I read and have heard from experience that yes, trust is an important aspect of a relationship, but I feel the real issue is to 'taking the first step' towards anything.

We are all guilty of "lying" about our true value by pimping ourselves up with either make up, jewelry, fancy clothes etc. from what I read, it's whether people will go the distance and lie about their psyche as well that is important.

So. 10K words and not a straight answer! My last incarnation must have been female.
 

helgaleena

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We are all guilty of "lying" about our true value by pimping ourselves up with either make up, jewelry, fancy clothes etc. from what I read, it's whether people will go the distance and lie about their psyche as well that is important.

So. 10K words and not a straight answer! My last incarnation must have been female.

Not female-- a politician!:tongue:

Myself cannot be bothered to 'lie' with makeup. They don't seem to make any shades light enough for me to use anyhow, apart from clown white. I used to use that when preparing for stage in fact.
 

WideAndDeep

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The quick pickup doesn't favor socially awkward nice guys; it favors the smooth talking sexual predators.
I just have to point out some fallacies here. "Nice" guys are not necessarily socially awkward, and confident guys are certainly not necessarily "sexual predators." These are ridiculous binary caricatures.

Check it out: it is possible to be confident, funny, charming, interesting AND nice AND honest. All in one package. And guess what? If you posses three or more of the above qualities, you WILL be getting laid!

If you DON"T possess at least three of the above qualities, you may have to lie to get laid.

Game recognizes game.
 

helgaleena

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Orcabomber skrev:

Bonky is driven to know what he wants, he gets it, and more importantly, has a good time and makes sure the women are treated right.

I don't recall him expressing any desire to see his partners were 'treated right' actually. Only that they not pin the offspring of other males to him financially.
 

D_Humper E Bogart

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I just have to point some fallacies here. "Nice" guys are not necessarily socially awkward, and confident guys are certainly not necessarily "sexual predators." These are ridiculous binary caricatures. Check it out: it is possible to be confident, funny, charming, interesting AND nice AND honest. All in one package. And guess what? If you posses three or more of the above qualities, you WILL be getting laid!
If you DON"T possess at least three of the above qualities, you may have to lie to get laid. Game recognizes game.
Hmmm, so I'm confident to the point of obsession, I make everyone at work laugh, my hobbies and lifestyle are interesting enough to talk about, I am nice enough I was nicknamed 'the saint' and I am a pathological truth teller.

Hmmm. 5/6 AND I'M A VIRGIN!

"Nur-nur! That was the wrong answer!" :tongue:

The correct answer is:
Lie as if you were up for the Presidency, or go home.


OK, OK, I'll stop the madness now.

Orcabomber skrev:
I don't recall him expressing any desire to see his partners were 'treated right' actually. Only that they not pin the offspring of other males to him financially.
He does spend lots of money on taking them out to places. Anyway, I will not discuss the pros and cons of another man's lifestyle. I will add that he has the most "honesty" of us all when it comes to his actions, ironically.
 
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Draconis71

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sure, lying works.
Telling someone you do not feel strongly for that you do feel strongly for them...

And it will get you sex with a lot of women
...that you do not feel strongly for...


Sincerity ALSO works. How???
And that way you get to have sex with women who you DO feel strongly for.
And, for me, I will happily pass by 100 chances at sexual mediocrity to have that 1 chance at an electrifying, transcendent connection.

Every woman is a sucker for genuine devotion. not really...

I may lie to a woman about whether I ate the last piece of leftover pizza...
But I have never lied to a woman about anything that mattered.

Depends on how you define "success." For a shallow person lacking a moral compass, with little or no regard for the feelings of others, who in truth is not very interesting, yes, perhaps lying is the key to "success." But if "success" means "genuine, quality relationships" the above clearly does not apply.

Here are some other equations that can be true depending on perspective:

Success with women=being completely honest
Success with women=paying (being wealthy)
Success with women=being charming
Success with women=being very very attractive
Success with women=being a total douchebag
different measures of success... getting laied: You'd be looking at either douchebag and/or paying. Completley honest doesn't bag you any sex. charming (usually lying/button-pushing/sleazy....) can get you in the sack... Sorta goes again, as douchebag...
I've seen guys have great success with all of the above and various combinations thereof.

Understanding women is impossible. Even when they know what they want, it's not what they want because they change their minds constantly.

We put up with it because we're stupid and we're programmed with our ultimate goal to be insert tab A into slot A.

"Success" is relative to your desire and the best way to get it depends on who you target.

Women will complain endlessly about guys being insensitive pricks or shallow, lying assholes, but these women are generally the ones that go after all the presents with the prettiest wrapping paper or the biggest "bow". Sure, the box looked nice, but the only thing inside was second hand Tupperware. the women usually end up going out with/dating/fucking the snot out of said assholes...

They say they want guys that are compassionate and understanding, but also be charming and have a great body and lots of money/successful job. A critical flaw with these desires is thinking the last three are good qualities. Charm takes practice. That means Prince Charming has probably talked a whole lot of girls right outta their panties before he met you. People with successful careers are very aggressive people; they see what they want and make it theirs. Often times, at the cost of steping on other people who actually work harder. I've seen this type of personality time and time again. Yes, they get the women, the job promotions/etc... but, destroy others to get it or outright cheat. Again, probably a skill set that's served them well in getting tail. Guys with great bodies know they have great bodies and can use their six pack to get any number of girls.

ProTip: If a guy is in a club, he's not a nice guy. He's looking for a young, dumb girl to take home and fuck mercilessly. In fact, any guy that hits on you is probably not the Mr Right you're dreaming of.

The sweet, funny, polite, caring guy you're pining over is probably the last person you'd consider having a relationship with. He's the quiet guy in the corner. He's the guy that diverts his eyes whenever you look in his direction. He's the guy working the shitty dead end job because, while it's not glorious, it pays the bills.

Most women that complain about not finding good men aren't even looking. They're cherry picking the men that seek out their attention. The gentleman you desire so badly just assumes you wouldn't be interested in him because he's probably seen you hanging over some ABF model and figures he can't measure up. And most tragically, Mr. Perfect is generally your best male friend that you dump all your emotional baggage on and love him dearly for his emotional support-- however, you have absolutely no sexual interest in him because if he was the strong willed, independent swinging-dick heman you wanted, he wouldn't put up with being your emotional enema.


Wait... what was the fuckin question?

Interesting theory!



Well, perhaps. But I think you're missing the point that women really WANT to be lied to by high-quality males. "Does my ass look fat in this?" is not really a question, it's a chance to let the man lie to her. Gentlemen lie.

Women equate lying to them with showing them respect. If you're an alpha-male, she knows you are (probably) banging other women. You just show her respect by maintaining "plausible deniability" and not throwing it in her face.

When you approach a girl, she knows you want to screw her. But coming right out and saying it (being honest) is disrespectful. It's respectful to lie, to make it appear that you're looking for something else from her. And the more creatively and effectively you lie, the more she'll respect and love you.

This is why I said it was a revelation. Women don't play by the same rules as men. Men value being upfront. Women don't. They pretend they do, but that's a lie as well.

You must understand this at a gut level to be successful with women. It's very alien to how men are raised to deal with other things in life.

All the game. And, yes... does point towards the jerks/sleaze being the guys to get the girls.


You sound like my kind of girl, and since you aren't typical, that's probably why I've only had a small handful of relationships. I'm not into the screaming ninnies that are into all the junk a lot of women are.
But I'm sure some other guys would say that you are lying about wanting guys to be upfront.
Oh, did you know Christy's got a porn-star look-a-like? (couldn't find the thread off hand, and am too lazy to search for it now)

Pretty much. Introverted, socially awkward guys don't get pussy, despite how genuine, honest, respectful, blah blah blah they may be. The lying asshole is the one that gets all the pussy because he knows how to push all the right buttons to get the female attracted to him and emotionally charged up for sex, regardless of how he truly, honestly feels about her (if anything at all). Bingo. The women seem to take the same lies over and over... and don't like being warned that their current beau is a creep (tho, they should know it already when they've been picked up by him, while he's still seeing someone else)



This is pretty much what I would say, but since you seem to be more interesting than I am, maybe it'll carry more weight now that you've said it :tongue:.



All of these previous quotes lead right into the world of the pick-up artist and the seduction community. Guys that for the most part don't have the natural skills to get the girls and sex that they want, but that are smart enough to study the guys that do have the natural ability to get all the girls and sex they want. They are smart enough to discover and study what works and then apply it. They learn to say the right words, do the right things, look the right way, and generally push the right buttons to get almost any girl emotionally charged up and wanting sex. Being the man that the particular girl they're talking to wants them to be. This may include lying, although many claim to work on the premise that they're being absolutely truthful, being honest, and just being "Mr. Right Now" to the girl.

They've deliberately discovered and learned this dichotomy; that women consciously claim to want one thing, but subconsciously respond to completely the other thing. They say they want the nice guy who will pay for everything, buy them flowers, listen to their problems for hours, be a gentleman, yadda yadda yadda. Yet you see them in the club or the bar and not long after meeting the guy who is a bit of a cocky asshole, who is fun and funny, who doesn't appear to give a shit about them and doesn't want to hear them talk about boring shit, they are on their knees in the sleazy bathroom sucking his dick for all she's worth like it's the fountain of youth or the holy grail. Or bent over the hood of the car in the parking lot. Despite claiming to want the former, they won't give him the time of day. Despite claiming to hate the former, they keep going back and giving it up.

Actions speak louder than words. So while the women may constantly say one thing about the guy, their behaviors show otherwise.

Because he was the guy who knew how to push the "give it up" buttons.

The best ones sometimes are liars, but sometimes aren't. Some of the best ones are the ones that come in completely under the radar and no one even realizes what's happening or where's it's leading until it's too late and actually happening.



True. But then, the guys that do this aren't really looking for serious relationships. They want pussy. End of story.

The socially inept guys usually end up without anything. I know.
 

Pitbull

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Check it out: it is possible to be confident, funny, charming, interesting AND nice AND honest. All in one package. And guess what? If you posses three or more of the above qualities, you WILL be getting laid!

I think I've got all 6.
Waiting for the knock on the door.... :biggrin1:
Waiting....:smile:
Waiting...:rolleyes:

Still waiting.....:frown1:
 

blg3floor3

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Yeah. One can have all the mentioned qualities, but still not be very successful (whichever your definition of that is). I don't know about anyone else, but personally, I find it to be a matter of social skills. I don't really have them because as an introvert, I really don't care for socializing 95% of the time. When I'm socializing (any time, any situation, any place, etc), my feelings range from more or less neutral to "I hate this and I'm bored. I want to go home now and do something interesting." We're actually wired differently (reference 20 at the bottom, for source).

Hard to get more skilled and suave at something you can't stand doing most of the time and are hardwired to care little for. :tongue: In my personal experiences, viewing the successes and failures of the people around me, the single biggest, hugest, strongest factor was, by far, social ability (which there are multiple dimensions of). Socializing is like an art, and being the Picasso, the Mozart, or the da Vinci is where it's at. IMO anyway.
 

Kayden96

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Wow, I'm the same way. I constantly find me forcing myself to laugh while thinking "what makes you think I care? God... I could be home playing a game or reading a book."

I thought I was just a bad person.

Yeah. One can have all the mentioned qualities, but still not be very successful (whichever your definition of that is). I don't know about anyone else, but personally, I find it to be a matter of social skills. I don't really have them because as an introvert, I really don't care for socializing 95% of the time. When I'm socializing (any time, any situation, any place, etc), my feelings range from more or less neutral to "I hate this and I'm bored. I want to go home now and do something interesting." We're actually wired differently (reference 20 at the bottom, for source).

Hard to get more skilled and suave at something you can't stand doing most of the time and are hardwired to care little for. :tongue: In my personal experiences, viewing the successes and failures of the people around me, the single biggest, hugest, strongest factor was, by far, social ability (which there are multiple dimensions of). Socializing is like an art, and being the Picasso, the Mozart, or the da Vinci is where it's at. IMO anyway.
 

closetbi

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Everyone wants sex with someone they find attractive. No one wants to be rejected. So what happens? We each work our way closer to sex in a way that neither person can be negatively judged for wanting it. That's about it. Women lie the same way, they do whatever it takes, as long as they don't seem like a whore getting the job done.
 

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im the kind of guy who can talk to women better when there is a situation already present. like i met my girlfriend at band camp (dont say it). im good at talking to girls at work and stuff like that also. if im like just talking to them im terrible at it. horrible. we need to have a basis to start a conversation at. i don't like talking in general unless it's necessary either.