Suicide - Does it send one to hell?

helgaleena

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Suicide is an easy way out, and is for cowards.

Try killing yourself a few times and see whether it's so easy.

Logically, If you have no soul you have no conscience.
I don't see the logical connection at all. Conscience has nothing to do with this abstract hypothetical entity called 'soul'.

And you are objecting to hilaire's rejection of the necessity for 'ghosts', with That Avatar? pretty spooky. :tongue:
 
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workandplay243

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Hell is not scriptural. It is a concept used by the clergy to control their flock.


It is in the scriptures. Hell, Hades and Sheol, are all over the place in the Bible.

Here is your clergy, not mine:
You are going to hell in a handbasket...
Place your hands on the T.V. set to be healed, send me your love gift, and I'll send you my prayer cloth.
 

workandplay243

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Try killing yourself a few times and see whether it's so easy.

oh yes, takes alot of guts in it's entirety.

I don't see the logical connection at all. Conscience has nothing to do with this abstract hypothetical entity called 'soul'.

OKay

And you are objecting to hilaire's rejection of the necessity for 'ghosts', with That Avatar? pretty spooky. :tongue:

yes, it looks like me and you in 100 years or less.
 
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D_Budd_Hert

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Suicide isn't the ultimate sin , I doubt you'll go to hell ....living life the way it is is Hell on Earth ....Blasphemy is the " supposid " Ultimate sin ..... and until you've bean able to walk in someones shoes ? dont bash !!!! I suffer from suicidal tendancies all the time ( thank God my kids are what keep me alive ) Im a cutter as well ... You name it !?!? Ive prolly tried it ....well ? everything minus the trigger ......
 

MickeyLee

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Suicide is an easy way out, and is for cowards. As far as where your soul goes, it is not for any of us to decide or condemn.
I'm not saying im not a decent human being, and I adhere to the laws set forth in this land (albeit many polluted).
I was referring to all athiest's post's above me - They are correct. You, me or anyone who denies God, or his existence DOES NOT adhere to any kind of moral values set by any kind of religion. Personal values, codes of conduct, right from wrong are taught to us by who? and a better question - WHY? Why be a 'good' person? Cheat, steal, and do whatever you feel like, if you can get away with it, right? no God, no conscience. Logically, If you have no soul you have no conscience. Understand that we are here in by some cosmic mistake! We are just a collection of cells, just meandering along in society, souless.
what could be more sad.
First understand 'Why' to be a decent person. If there are no consequences to any of our actions here in life, other than doing what our laws tell us to do, it's party time!


wouldn't having a soul make you feel bad about being so hateful and judgmental of a human being suffering so much?


if fear and punishment are the only things keeping you from committing crimes, harming people and generally being a dick... you're not a good person.. nor do you have a soul.
ya just a dick who's too pussy to stand up to sky daddy.

a good person wouldn't wish harm another.. a good person knows right from wrong.

faith and devotion should be borne of love. being a good person requires conscious choice and will.
you're responding in your own best interest. ya motivation is selfish. ya are a bad person.

the whole mad-atoms playing at reality.... not having a reason for it all isn't a reason to be a dick.
 
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Calboner

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Logically, If you have no soul you have no conscience.
No; but logically, if the only consideration that moves you to prefer what is right to what is wrong is the threat of punishment in the hereafter, then you are the one who has no conscience; because it shows that you care nothing about right and wrong in themselves but only about your own well-being.
 
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MickeyLee

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No; but logically, if the only consideration that moves you to prefer what is right to what is wrong is the threat of punishment in the hereafter, then you are the one who has no conscience; because it shows that you care nothing about right and wrong in themselves but only about your own well-being.


what he said ^^^^^
 

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When I was a young teen I hung myself in my bedroom, as I swung unconscious, my older brother walked in; cut me down and saved my life. I can tell you; spending eternity in hell; as I knocked the chair from under my feet was the furthest thing from my mind.
 

workandplay243

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No; but logically, if the only consideration that moves you to prefer what is right to what is wrong is the threat of punishment in the hereafter, then you are the one who has no conscience; because it shows that you care nothing about right and wrong in themselves but only about your own well-being.

You glazed right over it and 'How the hell' does is show I care nothing about right and wrong? You have no idea what my point is, and you focused on 'I'm scared of eternal separation from God' or, "I'll be burning in hell because I didn't accept Jesus' scenario.

If I'm an athiest, why should I care about right and wrong? I have no condemnation. I can ignore my conscience and do as I please, because there is no repercussions in the so called 'afterlife'. My only thought is to be a good citizen, and if it feels good... do it. Besides, if there is a hell, all my friends are there waiting for me to party up!
Blind foolishness.
 

workandplay243

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wouldn't having a soul make you feel bad about being so hateful and judgmental of a human being suffering so much?


if fear and punishment are the only things keeping you from committing crimes, harming people and generally being a dick... you're not a good person.. nor do you have a soul.
ya just a dick who's too pussy to stand up to sky daddy.

a good person wouldn't wish harm another.. a good person knows right from wrong.

faith and devotion should be borne of love. being a good person requires conscious choice and will.
you're responding in your own best interest. ya motivation is selfish. ya are a bad person.

the whole mad-atoms playing at reality.... not having a reason for it all isn't a reason to be a dick.


You also miss my point. I'm an athiest, I have no soul! Name calling shows your lack of control, and further refines my overall thought as to you being another typical emotionally slaved individual, bound by what comes to minds whim at any given moment.
 

workandplay243

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When I was a young teen I hung myself in my bedroom, as I swung unconscious, my older brother walked in; cut me down and saved my life. I can tell you; spending eternity in hell; as I knocked the chair from under my feet was the furthest thing from my mind.

I had a neighbor friend in high school hang himself in the closet after presumably haveing a 'bad trip' from PCP. He didn't survive. He was probably not thinking about hell either.
 

august86

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wouldn't having a soul make you feel bad about being so hateful and judgmental of a human being suffering so much?

if fear and punishment are the only things keeping you from committing crimes, harming people and generally being a dick... you're not a good person.. nor do you have a soul.
ya just a dick who's too pussy to stand up to sky daddy.

a good person wouldn't wish harm another.. a good person knows right from wrong.

faith and devotion should be borne of love. being a good person requires conscious choice and will. <<--the only part of your reply that everyone can agree on.
you're responding in your own best interest. ya motivation is selfish. ya are a bad person.

the whole mad-atoms playing at reality.... not having a reason for it all isn't a reason to be a dick.

Wow, now that's a whole lotta "judgemental and highly offensive".
"sky daddy"? seriously?!
When it comes to morals and telling right from wrong, those who taught it to us, usually picked it up from religion, which is why many of us were forced to go to ‘church’ when we were younger. As much as we'd like to think that we are born with the common sense to treat everyone well, do only what is good and right, etc, we're not. This is taught to us in the way we observe our families, and by trial and error, of which consequences are a huge part.

I'd like to hear from those who have never been to church/temple/synagogue etc or had any religious influences in their lives (i.e.: religious parents/grandparents, etc). Tell me how you learnt right from wrong and all the "moral behavioural characteristics" which make you a good person.

I don't like debating with disgruntled religious-types who have become atheist or otherwise, because this is usually due to the fact that they place more emphasis on the human weakness and failings than on what they supposedly 'believe'. Face it, we're all flawed!

logically

Getting back to the issue at hand, suicide and its one-way ticket to hell.
I believe there's some kind of afterlife, but the God that I believe in, speaks of compassion and love, so I do not believe that a "troubled soul" (yes, I believe we have a soul, too) will be forsaken and banished to a fiery pit.

We all would have considered suicide at least once in our lives; some follow through, with others, it remains but a thought.
Logically, I could never realistically consider suicide without considering the following:
  1. who will clean up after me?
  2. who's going to find me and have that scene replay in their minds for the rest of their lives?
  3. who will comfort my family when they mourn and feel the guilt of not being able to help and not being reason-enough for me to want to live?
  4. if I have any children at the time, will they ever live normal lives or will my actions set them on a path of destruction, self-hate, and totally erode away their self-worth and chances of a normal life?
  5. will my family/partner have enough money to bury me when the insurance refuses to pay?
  6. do I want all my life's work/actions to be nullified by one final act?
Looking at these questions, I do think that suicide is one of the most selfish things one can do, but the problem is that many people don't do much thinking beyond the action they're about to commit. I'm sure that most people feel deep regret just before death, and beyond into the afterlife.

In summary, suicide makes you selfish, but I don't believe you're going to hell.
 

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Logically speaking, there is no evidence that the soul exists. However, logic applies only to cellphones and sudoku for people of faith. Their brains are wired differently than mine, so I don't try to understand them.
 

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I'd like to hear from those who have never been to church/temple/synagogue etc or had any religious influences in their lives (i.e.: religious parents/grandparents, etc). Tell me how you learnt right from wrong and all the "moral behavioural characteristics" which make you a good person.

I was brought up as an atheist, in an atheist household. I didn't go to church, or Sunday school, I was excused from RE in school along with the 2 Jewish kids, 2 Catholic kids and 3 Hindu kids that went to the same Church of Ireland (Protestant) primary school.

That was til age 12, then I switched to a state school which, despite being non-denominational in name, was essentially Catholic. Again, I was excused from RE and did not attend any church. There were priests and nuns in the school but none of them taught me and I really never had very much to do with them as they weren't involved in the extra-curricular activities I attended either.

Of my three grandparents who survived past my infancy two were atheist, one was religious but lived in a different country and was very personal with her faith, never pushing it on anyone else and respecting our parents wishes that we be brought up without religion. The uncles and aunts I had regular contact with were atheist. My parents close friends when I was very young were a mixture of religions, none very devout - the same is true of the parents of my friends.

I would say I was brought up without a religious moral framework.

Of course it is completely impossible to avoid ALL religious influence - we see on TV, in books, in adverts, films - but for me it was an abstract.

So how did I learn my moral framework? The same way nearly every other fucker here did, from my parents, from the authority figures in my life. My mother is one of the kindest, fairest and least judgmental people I know. She taught me, by example, how to respect the individual. She didn't ever tell that not doing so would get me punished, or that doing so would get me a reward. But she respected me as an individual, always listened and always gave me the benefit of the doubt, showed me what it felt like to be treated like that. And the benefit of the doubt is how she taught me trust, how to trust and how important it is to be trusted, and to be worthy of that trust. She also taught me, by example, how to lose gracefully.

My father taught me, again by example, the importance of being true to myself - he was often at odds with his surroundings, still is, but he never compromises himself. He doesn't fight his corner with the same grace and inclusiveness I see in my mother - but he fights it with passion, conviction and intellectual honesty.

Both of them taught me integrity, consistency, honesty and the important of fairness, of practicing equality.

But why? Why would anyone need to act like that if there is no pay off for adhering nor punishment for straying? The answer is simple - because that's how I want to be treated.
 

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Well hello there brother, nice to see another atheist.
If you don´t mind me adding something...there's no proof that the soul exists, AND, there's a ton of evidence that it doesn't.

It has always been a silly concept. A non-substantial substance? It's paradoxical.

Anyway, neuroscience killed the soul.

Erm,,,what is the "ton of evidence that is doesn;t" exist? I am a medical doctor; my speciality is Paediatric Oncology. I have seen small children come back from what is commonly known as an NDE, and ALL of those I have seen, have had remarkable stories to tell about that "journey". Strangely, the theme is always the same, even though these children come from a a vast array of very different Religions.....
 

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I believe that when one takes their own life, they clearly see no options other than that. Religions that insist that it's a direct ticket to hell condemn them from this side of death, and can't possibly have a clue about the "Truth" about the afterlife!

There are other sides of suicide that's often neglected. When there has been a suicide in the family, there's an increased chance of others in the family (even extended family) to follow suit, and the guilt that's left behind in the family is inevitable.

I speak from seeing the experience my best bud has gone through. He received a phone call from a cousin, asking him to come over for a visit. When he got there, his cousin had blown his head off. He left my mate a note, telling him he was the only one in the family that cared about him, and he wanted my buddy to take care of the "arrangements." My friend suffered for years, wondering if he had shown him he cared even more than he had shown him, would it have been avoided.

It's one of the worst ways out of this life. Hate to say it, but it's better to stage a fatal auto accident. At least then the family doesn't carry the guilt. But then again, the individual isn't thinking clearly, and simply isn't in their right mind.
 

MickeyLee

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Wow, now that's a whole lotta "judgemental and highly offensive".
ya know the difference between good judgment and judgmental is? how much the observer agrees with you.

coke or pepsi is a judgement call.
to do good or to do bad is a judgment call.
good or bad might be perspective...

"sky daddy"? seriously?!

Holy Father, Our Father, Heaven Above.... Sky Daddy

When it comes to morals and telling right from wrong, those who taught it to us, usually picked it up from religion, which is why many of us were forced to go to &#8216;church&#8217; when we were younger. As much as we'd like to think that we are born with the common sense to treat everyone well, do only what is good and right, etc, we're not. This is taught to us in the way we observe our families, and by trial and error, of which consequences are a huge part.

you're taught to read. you picked what you read. you keep what is valuable to you. what speaks to you. discard the rest.

school, society, teachers, parents lay down a foundation to build ya own code of ethics on. what you live in is up to you.

i'm not saying humans are born knowing good. the average toddler would kill you for cookie if the lil' dude had the strength. i am saying a person can choose to act on immediate consequence for themselves (jail, fine, community shunning) or they can live a life considering how their choices affect people around them.

i see being good as an act of will. that whole unexamined life thingie. unless ya decide to be all benevolent and do on to othersy.. ya just just following a line. ya not being good.. ya being obedient. there is a difference. most folks are ethically lazy. most people don't look past the end their nose to see the real consequences.

i got this whole evil cheeseburger thing i'll keep to myself :redface:

back to the topic of suicide.... when people can't see any light.. it's easy to get lost.
i don't see it as selfish.. just desperate.
then again.. i've spent a good portion of my life counting reason to not die on my toes...
this little piggie needs to make breakfast at the shelter...
this little piggie has library books due...

so my POV might be from the other side of the fence.
 
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Erm,,,what is the "ton of evidence that is doesn;t" exist? I am a medical doctor; my speciality is Paediatric Oncology. I have seen small children come back from what is commonly known as an NDE, and ALL of those I have seen, have had remarkable stories to tell about that "journey". Strangely, the theme is always the same, even though these children come from a a vast array of very different Religions.....
I agree with your first point, or what I take to be implied by your question, namely that there is no positive evidence of the non-existence of an immortal soul in human beings. This is simply because the idea that there is an immortal soul entails no determinate empirical predictions and therefore is inherently immune to empirical testing. There is no evidence of the non-existence of the soul just as there is no evidence of the non-existence of fairies, leprechauns, and other creatures of fancy, whose attributes can always be so conceived as to evade all empirical testing. Note, however, that this does not mean that it is just as reasonable to believe in the existence of such things as it is to disbelieve. Human fantasy being virtually boundless, the burden lies on those who would posit such entities to show that the belief in them is something other than foolishness.

For the rest, you seem to be suggesting that the similarities among reports of near-death experiences constitute positive evidence of the existence of an immortal soul in human beings. This is an illusion that has been amply debunked. I will let Brian Dunning, the maker of a podcast called Skeptoid: Critical Analysis of Pop Phenomena, explain the matter:

Life review, euphoria, bright lights, and meetings with sacred personages have all been correlated with high levels of carbon dioxide in the brain. Research published in the journal Critical Care in 2010 found that over one-fifth of heart attack patients who went into cardiac arrest and were resuscitated, all of whom would have had high CO2, reported these phenomena. But these patients were all also nearly dead; so the NDE correlates equally well with being near death as it does with the physiological condition. To find out which is the best correlation, we'd have to see whether an NDE can happen when one condition is present and the other is not.

It turns out that extensive research has been done to characterize a person's experience with loss of blood to the brain when there is no risk of death, by that patron saint of human experimentation, the US military. For 15 years, Dr. James Whinnery put hundreds of healthy young fighter pilots into centrifuges to understand what a pilot might experience under extreme gravitational loads. He put them in until they blacked out. Once they reached a point where there was inadequate bloodflow to the brain, they lost consciousness; and among the frequently reported experiences were the following: Bright light, floating through a tunnel, out of body experiences, vivid dreams of beautiful places, euphoria, rapid memories of past events, meeting with friends and family, and more. The list is an exact match with the events attributed by believers to a brush with the afterlife.
I recommend reading the whole transcript, but this passage makes the essential point: that the attributes of near-death experiences that are adduced as evidence of an afterlife are identical with the effects of hypoxia in the absence of a near-death experience.

As Dunning goes on to note, this does not constitute proof that there is no afterlife; but it does disprove the claim that such experiences constitute evidence of an afterlife. In other words, if you are disposed to believe in that sort of thing, nobody can prove that you are in error; but if you think that near-death experiences constitute evidence in support of your belief, then you are demonstrably mistaken.
 
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The assisted suicide thread on Politics caused me to post this thread. I was raised in a hardcore Southern Baptist family and we were taught that taking one's own life was a direct ticket to hell. I think those teachings are still common today.

Sitting on lpsg.org would also get you to hell by those standards. But to answer short and precise: no. And if hell is a serious reason for being against assisted suicide, then there are bigger problems to be dealt with in the area debating it IMO. Religious dogma should not guide lawmaking, and thankfully, where I am from, they don't. :smile:
 

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When I was a young teen I hung myself in my bedroom, as I swung unconscious, my older brother walked in; cut me down and saved my life. I can tell you; spending eternity in hell; as I knocked the chair from under my feet was the furthest thing from my mind.


Glad ya made it. We all have rough times. Brothers...so glad we got em.