Suicide

[nakedwally]

For me I think that a person must be in so much pain and must be so left out that they feel they have only one way out.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

I generally believe it's a pussy way out... "permanent solution to a temporary problem"... but at the same time, I know that people who are contemplating suicide see it as being completely valid.

People who threaten suicide but don't attempt it are just looking for attention. There's obviously something they crave and need, but they aren't getting... so they figure if they threaten death, then someone will give them what they want/need.

*Edit* - Most of the time, when people threaten suicide to get attention, they don't necessarily REALIZE why they are doing it... most people don't plan it in advance, or say to themselves that they are going to threaten suicide to get attention. Often times, they just feel worthless so they just presume that they'd be better off dead... but when they say that out loud to someone, then the person says what they want to hear - "Don't do that, you're worth too much, I love you, blah blah blah, etc etc etc"... and then they don't attempt it. Does that make sense?

Makes perfect sense to me, Meg - certainly your 2nd paragraph and the edit I agree with 100%.

On the first bit - whether actual sucessful suicide is cowardly - I find that a really tough call and I think it varies from case to case.

I don't believe in euthenasia - not because I feel people shouldn't be allowed to die with dignity but because if euthenasia is written into law it becomes a minefield and I worry that it would be so open to abuse. People with terminal illness have been helping themselves to a dignified end for centuries without positive legislation and I don't see why there is a need for change. But that's not really the subject matter.

Is a physically healthy person killing her/himself cowardly? I'm inclined to believe that cowardly is the wrong word. It is certainly misguided. The effect the suicide of a person has on those who love her/him is, to my mind, so deeply wounding. I am lucky not to have suffered that - I know there are several people here who have and their opinions on the topic are more valid than mine. The problem is the suicide's thinking at and approaching the time of death is so warped by her/his own misery and discomfort in life that she/he can't see how her/his death will cause any more pain to those around her/him than her/his being alive does. Or in some cases there is an honest belief that no one will notice or care, or even that people will be happier. Of course that just isn't true in 99% (or more) cases - the people left behind are left not only grieving but with feelings of guilt and doubt at their own part in the suicide's misery. So cowardly? No, not necessarily. But cruel, to my mind it is definitely cruel.

 

[B_ScaredLittleBoy]

I would prefer if people didn't kill themselves and currently think that it isn't selfish. Talking about it, seeking attention and never going through with it is what I call selfish. Those kinds of attention seekers only care about themselves.

I [knew] a man from a very loving family who took his own life when he was 23. He would rather be dead than hurt his parents or shame them by living any longer with what he had become (heavily addicted to drugs, paranoid). I think that's kind of sad but also in a way noble; he didn't choose to live day-to-day, dependent on drugs and become a real addict, living only for the next hit. Then again, he isn't here anymore. It may not be the wisest choice or the happiest end to a life but there are worse things. IMO drug obsessed addicts who lie, cheat and steal and have no compassion for others or will to mend their ways are one of those 'worse things'.

For anyone wondering, this is a different person to the guy I mentioned yesterday...

 

[Draconis71]

I don't believe in euthenasia - not because I feel people shouldn't be allowed to die with dignity but because if euthenasia is written into law it becomes a minefield and I worry that it would be so open to abuse. People with terminal illness have been helping themselves to a dignified end for centuries without positive legislation and I don't see why there is a need for change. But that's not really the subject matter.

Hell, some people with terminal illnesses have better lives than me, or other "healthy" people.
more fulfilling, more active, more rewarding.
They may be dying, but so what?

 

[ruperty]

there are various causes for suicide other than depression or illness. people have been known to suffer from headaches which create suicidal thoughts when they occur. also, some drugs can give people suicidal thoughts (both medicinal and leisure use drugs).

this has been in the news in England for the last couple of days. It's quite disturbing to think that things like this happen.

BBC NEWS | UK | Unravelling the suicide clusters

 

[Axcess]

Suicide isn't in any way a coward way out as the OP suggest. In most cases people that suicide suffer from depression and feel trapped in extreme negative circumstances that they don't control. Depression is a very common mental sickness in my family and several members of my family from my mother side has commited suicide.

 

[DC_DEEP]

Valid? or a pussy's way out?

I generally believe it's a pussy way out... "permanent solution to a temporary problem"... but at the same time, I know that people who are contemplating suicide see it as being completely valid.

Pussy's way out? Just because neither of you has been in a situation where you have considered it, is that how you come to that conclusion? That's pretty callous.

I'm not talking about the dramacidal (love that term, njqt) ones who threaten it periodically to regain their place in the center of everyone's universe. I'm talking about people who genuinely find the idea of death less distasteful than continuing to live. I've been through it.

The first diagnosis for my headaches was in 1987. I was told it was migraine. For those of you who have never had one, it isn't a matter of just having a really bad headache. It has other physiological effects besides just the pain.

At first, the standard drugs were effective. That lasted about 3 years. The standard drugs became ineffective, and my frequency, intensity, and duration increased. My doctor changed his diagnosis to cluster headaches (also commonly known as suicide headaches, by the way.) No effective treatments. My next doctor changed the diagnosis to atypical migraine. It has since been guesstimated to be migraine/cluster syndrome, cyclical headache syndrome, or chronic daily headache syndrome.

I lost an excellent job that I loved because of it. My boss was somewhat sympathetic, but got tired of me spending sometimes 90 minutes of the workday in the restroom, vomiting, or not being able to get my work done because my vision was gone. Driving to and from work was a daily panic attack, because I never knew if I would suddenly lose my vision while driving 70 MPH on the freeway. It did happen once - I got the aura, and I knew I had about 15 seconds to pull off the road before my central vision went black. I was lucky that day, I didn't have a wreck and take innocent bystanders with me to my death.

After about 12 years of that, yes, death really did sound better. The only thing that kept me from it was worrying about how it would affect my friends and family.

After about 13 years of dealing with it, 3 primary doctors, 3 neurologists, and 2 headache clinics, and numerous MRIs, angiograms, EEGs, allergy tests and food trials and drug trials (they used a full spectrum of antidepressants, anticonvulsants, and blood pressure drugs, all with bad side effects and none effective), I found a doctor (at the Veterans Administration hospital!) who actually listened to me and worked out a treatment plan that let me lead a normal life again. 13 years. Try it some time. Just a refresher, so you understand what I'm talking about here...

The headache feels like a brainfreeze, or "ice cream headache" that lasts anywhere from a couple of hours to a couple of weeks. The vision comes and goes; when it goes, it's like the central vision goes completely black, and the peripheral vision is like staring at fireworks. The nausea also comes and goes, whether you have anything in your stomach or not. You vomit or dry heave until you think a rib will break. I also had (this is not typical) coordination loss, and couldn't walk a straight line or button my shirt.

there are various causes for suicide other than depression or illness. people have been known to suffer from headaches which create suicidal thoughts when they occur. also, some drugs can give people suicidal thoughts (both medicinal and leisure use drugs).

this has been in the news in England for the last couple of days. It's quite disturbing to think that things like this happen.

BBC NEWS | UK | Unravelling the suicide clusters

Thanks, ruperty.

 

[dong20]

First, the OP was asking a question, not rendering a judgement. A number of people dived in with accusatory attitudes without (apparently) actually reading or comprehending what was actually written (albeit badly). At least that's how I read it.

As for my view, if a person chooses to end their life it's their choice. Whether that choice is misguided, selfish, 'pussy like' or not it's still their choice and entirely justified from their perspective. The impact on those it affects can be catastrophic of course which is something I suspect stops many from taking that final step.

As has been said by others, almost without exception those that mean it, do it and usually without warning. Those that don't and waste time and medical resources on dramatics purely for attention just piss me off. A very few (I suspect) who 'attempt' suicide are genuinely seeking help in the only way they see available to them.

It's probably too complex and personal a subject to generalise and pidgeonhole, even though I just tried to.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

Pussy's way out? Just because neither of you has been in a situation where you have considered it, is that how you come to that conclusion? That's pretty callous.

Sorry DC - but how do you know they haven't? Also, one of the people you are addressing has a personal experience from the survivor side and I believe her opinion in this matter is not one reached lightly.

First, the OP was asking a question, not rendering a judgement. [...]

It's probably too complex and personal a subject to generalise and pidgeonhole, even though I just tried to.

Yes - the OP is a question not a statement - and yes, there are far too many factors to give a definitive answer. I wasn't saying, in my earlier post, that suicide is intentionally cruel (I believe often the intention is quite the opposite) - but in the vast majority of cases the effects it has on the survivors are very, very damaging.

 

[IntoxicatingToxin]

Pussy's way out? Just because neither of you has been in a situation where you have considered it, is that how you come to that conclusion? That's pretty callous.

Woah, what the fuck? Pretty easy to talk about people you don't know, I suppose. I was hospitalized as a teenager for being suicidal and cutting my arms with razor blades. Don't tell me I never considered it. I considered it every day for a long time. Want to know why I never attempted it? Because I had a brother who had committed suicide, and I couldn't bear putting my mom through that again. SO... not only have I contemplated it AND been hospitalized for it because it got so serious, but I've been through it myself with someone incredibly close to me. I still think that it's cowardly in most instances. For example... had I committed suicide, I think that it would have been a very selfish act. I would have been doing it because I didn't like who I was, and not taking into consideration all the people who know and love me. My problems were not permanent (obviously, I haven't considered suicide in YEARS)... and I basically made myself survive to keep from hurting my mother... then through a series of fortunate events, it came known to my mother that I was suicidal and she had me hospitalized. But don't tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about, or that I'm being callous. I get it.

 

[Osiris]

Woah, what the fuck? Pretty easy to talk about people you don't know, I suppose. I was hospitalized as a teenager for being suicidal and cutting my arms with razor blades. Don't tell me I never considered it. I considered it every day for a long time. Want to know why I never attempted it? Because I had a brother who had committed suicide, and I couldn't bear putting my mom through that again. SO... not only have I contemplated it AND been hospitalized for it because it got so serious, but I've been through it myself with someone incredibly close to me. I still think that it's cowardly in most instances. For example... had I committed suicide, I think that it would have been a very selfish act. I would have been doing it because I didn't like who I was, and not taking into consideration all the people who know and love me. My problems were not permanent (obviously, I haven't considered suicide in YEARS)... and I basically made myself survive to keep from hurting my mother... then through a series of fortunate events, it came known to my mother that I was suicidal and she had me hospitalized. But don't tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about, or that I'm being callous. I get it.

This is why I adore you Meg. You truly can see the two sides of this. SLB and Lee make a very good point. We the living call it selfish because we think the person was not considering our feelings. Truth be told, they think just the opposite. They think they are doing us all a favor by saving us from dealing with the burden they perceive themselves to be to us. Maybe a better phrase is Selflessly Intended.

My first real girlfriend was suicidal and not dramacidal. We had broken up but still remained friends. One Christmas, I had gotten her a diamond pendant. She had given it to my mother unbeknownst to me and wanted her to keep it since she knew how much it meant to me and to her. My mother said she thought Ingrid was down and we should throw a party for her and invite all the old school gang that she hasn't seen in years. We did and she came to the party. She was shocked to see all the old school gang and they were truly happy to see her. "I'm an awful friend, I should keep in touch with you more often." "You free this weekend? Let's hang out." All night it went like that. She would later go to my mother's room and sit there and cry her eyes out and confess she was having thoughts of suicide.

Thank God I had a mother with a background in psychiatric nursing. Ingrid is now an executive with CBS News and proud mother of 4.

 

[DC_DEEP]

Sorry DC - but how do you know they haven't? Also, one of the people you are addressing has a personal experience from the survivor side and I believe her opinion in this matter is not one reached lightly.

Don't lecture me. I've been on both sides of the issue, too. I didn't make the attempt, but I seriously considered it. The one thing that kept me from it was my consideration of the effect it would have on my survivors.

Woah, what the fuck? Pretty easy to talk about people you don't know, I suppose.

Yes, it is, isn't it? Perhaps it would have been the pussy's way out for you. But for you to assume that it's the pussy's way out for any other person whose circumstances you don't know... well, I stand by my statement that it's a callous thing for you to say, whether you've been there, or seen it happen, or not.

 

[naughty]

First,

I would like to thank the OP for opening up this topic to discussion. So many people have opinions which are based on their view of the sanctity of life, religion, concern for the survivors. But I am here to say that it is simply an act of tragedy.
Though I may tire of hearing someone say over and over that they are going to kill themselves , and yes perhaps I may even want to tell them to get over themselves, I have to pause for a second. Most people do not want to be unhappy, quiet as it as kept. WHen someone is saying this they are crying out for help. WHen we tell them to get over themselves or even show disdain for behavior we discern as being self serving we dont really know what the end might be.
I remember as a child hearing my brilliant, loving and hard working father mumble often "You all are going to miss me when I am gone" Or "You would be better off without me" I would in my teenaged ignorance roll my eyes and think, "Dad, you need to stop being melodramatic! " Years have passed and I now wince when I think of my responses to his expressions of pain. My father spent all of his life suffering from chronic moderate to severe un diagnosed or medicated depression. When the "family curse" hit me in my early thirties , as my dad was dying from cancer, I could for the first time understand him. I could understand how someone could want to leave an existence of chronic misery with no hope for change.

One of the problems is that the term "Depression" is perhaps one of the least understood and misused in our English language. Depression isnt just being down because you made a C on a test. Depression is to unhappiness for some what an atomic bomb is to a grenade. Clinical depression is a whole body experience and incredibly insidious. It can shut down your organs and immune system. It can make you second guess your every decision because you wonder am I really seeing things the way they are or am I "Over reacting" as you may be wont to hear from outside sources on a constant basis. It can make you think that your family would be better of without you, this hopeless, worthless piece of non functioning flesh who sometimes cant see far enough outside of your depths to remember how to spell cat or wash your clothing or take care of your most basic life functions.

Yes, depressed people like most people with chemical mental disorders can gauge the difference between the way they ARE and the way the WERE before the deluge of darkness hit. Yes you may get tired of hearing their issues for the 100th time, yes you get tired of picking up the slack for what they dont do, no you arent sympathetic because perhaps you may not have experienced it and because you cant see it it isnt there. But believe me it is...They live in constant fear that at some point their wives husbands, lovers, friends and children will see through their attempts at normalcy that are woefully inadequate and will leave in disgust. So, yes some just decide to save you the trouble. Oh... and NO not everyone has good results with anti depressants. THere are many poor souls who have been on just about every med there is and it still is not helping to quell the tide. If it has worked for you it is a blessing but not everyone is so lucky.

SO when you hear someone saying this to you, dont assume you know they wont do it this time. Because tommorow might be too late.

If you really want to see the different faces of depression and suicide in one of the most realistic portrayals I have ever seen. Watch the movie "THE HOURS" It will make you think. It made me stand up and cheer! I said to myself, "YES! SOmeone finally gets it! "

 

[ManlyBanisters]

Don't lecture me. I've been on both sides of the issue, too. I didn't make the attempt, but I seriously considered it. The one thing that kept me from it was my consideration of the effect it would have on my survivors.

How the blue-fruit-filled-buns is what I said a lecture??

I was just pointing out that I believed Meg's opinion to be one that was not formed lightly or in ignorance. You have every right to disagree with her and me and the whole bloody world. I didn't say your opinion wasn't valid, you just seemed to be jumping to conclusions about the two posters you quoted - one of whom I happened to remember you were wrong about.

This issue is obviously close to your heart in many ways and your opinions are strongly held, but that goes no way to explaining why what I posted came across to you as a lecture. It just wasn't.

 

[DC_DEEP]

First,

I would like to thank the OP for opening up this topic to discussion. So many people have opinions which are based on their view of the sanctity of life, religion, concern for the survivors. But I am here to say that it is simply an act of tragedy.
<...>
I would in my teenaged ignorance roll my eyes and think, "Dad, you need to stop being melodramatic! " Years have passed and I now wince when I think of my responses to his expressions of pain.
<...>
When the "family curse" hit me in my early thirties , as my dad was dying from cancer, I could for the first time understand him. I could understand how someone could want to leave an existence of chronic misery with no hope for change.
<...>
Oh... and NO not everyone has good results with anti depressants. THere are many poor souls who have been on just about every med there is and it still is not helping to quell the tide. If it has worked for you it is a blessing but not everyone is so lucky.

Naughty, that was an incredible, beautiful post. Thank you. You walked in another man's moccasins for much more than a day.

Wow. Double whammy, right? Your major depression hits (and you have to deal with that) at the same time your father is dying (and you have to deal with the pre-grief). I hope you've been able to find the treatment that works for you. Mine isn't quite as complicated as yours - when the headaches get out of control, I do tend to get a fairly severe "chronic pain depression." But still two issues to deal with at the same time. My primary care physician for the past 3 years transferred, so I have to train another one. He's not off to a good start with me, and is insisting that we discontinue the treatment that worked for 5 years, and go back and try some others that didn't work and had debilitating side effects. Oh well.

Anyway, thanks for sharing that post.

 

[earllogjam]

I hate to sound crass but I don't think there is a problem of getting the blues. It used to bother me a lot especially during my abusive childhood mainly because I was never taught how to deal with it properly or see it for what is was.

We, in our culture have been taught that feeling down is some horrible thing akin to leprosy. We treat mental illness as illnesses instead of seeing it as just one of the many human emotions. There is a pervasive unspoken expectation that happiness is the "normal" state everyone needs to be at in our society and anyone who deviates from that is abnormal, less of a person, wrong. While the truth of the matter is getting the blues is just part of being human. We just haven't in our society learned to deal with it nor face up to the fact that it is something that everyone deals with some better than others. We try at all costs to avoid and deny something that is unavoidable and part of human nature.

I dealt with it by coming to terms that it is just a part of me but only a part, that it is a temporary condition which always, always passes and I've learned enough about myself to see what things make me happy and pursue that instead of rocking back and forth in a the rut of depression. It something I had to learn myself as no one in my family nor society would ever touch that subject.

 

[IntoxicatingToxin]

Yes, it is, isn't it? Perhaps it would have been the pussy's way out for you. But for you to assume that it's the pussy's way out for any other person whose circumstances you don't know... well, I stand by my statement that it's a callous thing for you to say, whether you've been there, or seen it happen, or not.

I guess you didn't read my original post properly. Here is the very first thing I said in my first post.

"I generally believe it's a pussy way out."

That means IN GENERAL. Not every time. There are exceptions to every rule and I get that.

 

[DC_DEEP]

I guess you didn't read my original post properly. Here is the very first thing I said in my first post.

You are right, I am wrong. I am stupid.

That means IN GENERAL. Not every time. There are exceptions to every rule and I get that.

I'm sure you do.

 

[Lex]

I am stunned by a lot of the cavalier attitude of many in this thread regarding the matters of suicide and mental illness. I am glad some people "get it" but more often than not, shit flies over people's heads.

A judgmental question is still a question and it is still judgmental.

I recommend educating yourself on the topic of suicide and mental illness.

UGH.

 

[SexandCandy]

I just checked my ex into the hospital today. All joking aside. He was having suicidal thoughts, was depressed, battles alcoholism, and I'm really glad he's getting help. He explained that he felt like there was not another option... and he even grazed his wrists with a knife a few times (nothing serious, just nicks)

This is a pretty touchy subject for me- especially today.... because it just hit home as of 5:30 this morning... and has been something I've dealt with hands on for the past 14 hours or so.

I should probably skip this thread for a few days and stick to the funny ones.

Sigh.