Support Georgia

[Jason]

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I don't know how the US media is reporting this story. Here in the UK there is wall-to-wall coverage. Whatever the original rights and wrongs of the issues in South Ossetia might have been we are now seeing the invasion of a free, pro-western, democratic country by Russia.

I've heard on the BBC the parallel made with Adolf Hitler's invasion of Czechoslovakia's Sudetenland in 1938 on the pretence of safeguarding the interests of Germans in this part of the world. If Medvedev/Putin get away with this invasion of Georgia then the whole world becomes a far more dangerous place. The loss will not just be for the people of Georgia but for every one of us.

The internet has power, and we can all do our bit to support freedom worldwide by showing support for Georgia.

 

[Flashy]

I agree.

Putin is a thug.

Frankly, IMO, US warplanes from Incirlik, Turkey, should be protecting sovereign GEorgian air space right now. Russia has no right being inside of Georgian territory whatsoever.

 

[Hotrocker]

I totally agree. The U.S. has allied itself with Georgia via NATO and its time we lived up to our part of that deal. Georgia itself has called for aid from the U.S. yet the most we do is talk about brokering cease fires. The U.S. government AND people need to show support for Georgia's cause... whether that be through the internet or by sending money, logistics, materiel, etc. Russia is definitely out of line here.

 

[2322]

I'll say it again. The South Ossetians are welcoming the presence of the Russian military. South Ossetia was a Russian republic until Stalin gave it to his homeland of Georgia. The people of South Ossetia do not want to be Georgians and many have fled to Russia. About 1/3 of South Ossetia are actually Georgians and many South Ossetians feel they are treated as second class citizens within Georgia.

I argue that the desires of the people of South Ossetia to determine where they shall live and under which government is more important than the territorial ambitions of Georgia's president. South Ossetia does not want to be, and is historically not, part of Georgia. To support Georgia in this conflict is support the subjugation of a people who are simply looking for the right of self-determination.

Prior to this conflict South Ossetia had an autonomous government within Georgia. When president Saakashvili was elected, he ran on a platform of reigning-in the autonomous provinces of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. This he has tried to do and it has created far more suffering than if he had just let both provinces keep the status quo. Georgia caused the 3,000+ deaths as its army retreated from the Russian invasion, firing on the South Ossetians in punishment for welcoming the Russians.

President Saakashvili has spent a lot of time brown nosing the US to get our support for his crackdown on South Ossetia and Abkhazia. He was hoping that US support would prevent Putin from invading and, as Russia and the South Ossetians see it, protecting Russian interests in the region.

 

[Flashy]

Frankly, I think NATO should go on an immediate war footing...to send a VERY clear message to Russia.

We should immediately begin supplying the Georgian military with as many anti- aircraft missiles and anti-tank missiles as possible.

Georgia can clearly not win any head to head military conflict. But they have more than enough troops to fight using guerilla tactics. Given enough anti-tank weapons and anti-aircraft missiles, they can really do some damage to the Russians...and if the Ukraine can be convinced to close their ports to the Russians, this could send a very clear signal.

A small battalion of US troops should be sent in to the capitol, Tbilisi. That will prevent the Russians from attacking the capitol and U.S. fighters should close Georgian airspace, at the "request" of the Georgian President.

Putin is a thug, but he absolutely would not push further and risk involving NATO in the conflict.

On the positive side, this will immediately push Ukraine closer to NATO, and should fast track their acceptance.

Although Russia has "won" this "little war", this is a MASSIVE mistake on their part. They have lost a ton of prestige, harkening people's memories back to the time of the old Soviet years.

 

[Flashy]

I'll say it again. The South Ossetians are welcoming the presence of the Russian military. South Ossetia was a Russian republic until Stalin gave it to his homeland of Georgia. The people of South Ossetia do not want to be Georgians and many have fled to Russia. About 1/3 of South Ossetia are actually Georgians and many South Ossetians feel they are treated as second class citizens within Georgia.

I argue that the desires of the people of South Ossetia to determine where they shall live and under which government is more important than the territorial ambitions of Georgia's president. South Ossetia does not want to be, and is historically not, part of Georgia. To support Georgia in this conflict is support the subjugation of a people who are simply looking for the right of self-determination.

Prior to this conflict South Ossetia had an autonomous government within Georgia. When president Saakashvili was elected, he ran on a platform of reigning-in the autonomous provinces of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. This he has tried to do and it has created far more suffering than if he had just let both provinces keep the status quo. Georgia caused the 3,000+ deaths as its army retreated from the Russian invasion, firing on the South Ossetians in punishment for welcoming the Russians.

President Saakashvili has spent a lot of time brown nosing the US to get our support for his crackdown on South Ossetia and Abkhazia. He was hoping that US support would prevent Putin from invading and, as Russia and the South Ossetians see it, protecting Russian interests in the region.

none of that gives Russia the right to invade Georgia proper, which they have now done.

 

[lucky8]

The US cant really say anything, we're still in Iraq and Afghanistanimation...

 

[B_Artful Dodger]

The US cant really say anything, we're still in Iraq and Afghanistanimation...

That strikes me as a bit of an irrelevance really when innocent people are dying in Georgia

 

[lucky8]

That strikes me as a bit of an irrelevance really when innocent people are dying in Georgia

Ok, then why doesn't your country do something? It's only a few hundred miles away...

 

[lucky8]

And don't think I'm condoning Russia's actions in any way. I just think there are PLENTY of other countries in Europe who could collectively handle this situation. It's a little irritating having the entire world seeing America as the sole babysitter of sovereign nations

 

[B_Artful Dodger]

Ok, then why doesn't your country do something? It's only a few hundred miles away...

Because we are a tiny country stretched to our limits supporting Americas war with terror in the Middle East

 

[Jason]

South Ossetia was a Russian republic until Stalin gave it to his homeland of Georgia.quote]

South Ossetia today has a population of 70,000. A territory of this size cannot be an independent state. You cannot provide the facilities of a nation state for what in most parts of the world would count as a town. Under the old USSR it was an autonomous oblast (district) - it is wrong to translate this as Republic. It cannot have a capital (Chinvali is miniscue) and the jumped up war-lord the Russians have been promoting cannot be regarded as a president.

Of course there are issues in South Ossetia. For all I know there might hypothetically be issues with the Chinese community in Manhattan. But just as New York's Chinatown cannot be an independent state nor can South Ossetia.

Additionally by no means all of the population of South Ossetia are Ossetians. Different figures are being quoted, one as low as 25,000. There are a lot of Georgians in South Ossetia, and a lot of Georgian refugees who would like to go home to South Ossetia.

Geographically South Ossetia is south of the Caucasus, a major natural frontier, and the population distinct from the North Ossetians with whom there has been little contact.

Russia has meddled for years, stirred up unrest, and used this as a pretext for the present invasion not just of South Ossetia but of the whole nation of Georgia. Russia will of course be able to point to instances of bad behaviour by Georgia - Russia has provoked them and catalogued them. A decent Russian state would work with a willing Georgia and international community to find solutions.

 

[2322]

none of that gives Russia the right to invade Georgia proper, which they have now done.

Depends who you ask about what is, "Georgia proper." The South Ossetians don't believe their country is Georgia and they live there. Russia doesn't believe South Ossetia is Georgian either. Only Georgia thinks South Ossetia is Georgia. Russia is moving to prevent Georgia from being able to retake South Ossetia once Russia withdraws. Saakashvili was warned and warned and warned not to do this. He did it anyway.

You can either see this as Hitler invading the Sudeten or you can see it as NATO invading Kosovo to protect Kosovars from a vindictive Serbia.

You can also see this as Putin proving to the US that he owns his backyard, not the US, and he will take advantage of any weakening of American power to prove it.

 

[lucky8]

Because we are a tiny country stretched to our limits supporting Americas war with terror in the Middle East

Last time I checked, it's your war too, being that they attack your country more frequently than they do us...but that's besides the point. England has tons of power, and a strong military. It wouldn't be too hard for you guys to actually step up for once, on your own. THEN, if you really need help, rest assured we will have your back, like always.

Why is it always "the U.S. should get involved?" when NATO was created for situations just like this?

 

[Jason]

Ok, then why doesn't your country do something? It's only a few hundred miles away...

I do love American views on geography.

UK to Georgia is ball-park 2,500 miles. Georgia's sea coast is on the inaccessible Black Sea and the shortest air routes over-fly Russia.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

none of that gives Russia the right to invade Georgia proper, which they have now done.

Very true.

Depends who you ask about what is, "Georgia proper."

Doesn't depend on who you ask, but on what factually does constitute "Georgia proper."
The borders are clear, recognized on all maps.
If there is some injustice in the current territorial arrangement, then there are legal ways of attempting to rectify that injustice.
But invasion by an outside force is patently illegal and intolerable.

 

[lucky8]

I do love American views on geography.

UK to Georgia is ball-park 2,500 miles. Georgia's sea coast is on the inaccessible Black Sea and the shortest air routes over-fly Russia.

You missed my point, but that's ok

 

[Jason]

Why is it always "the U.S. should get involved?"

In this war it shouldn't. That would be a war between the USA and Russia, and I can't see Russia signing a gentleman's agreement to play rough only in Georgia. Escalation could be all too quick.

For that matter UK cannot get involved, both because of the above and because this would inevitably drag the USA in.

The reality is that this war will be decided on diplomacy. If the world sings from the same hymn sheet and protests loudly enough Russia will pull back. Alternatively Russia will destabilise Georgia and install a puppet government with Russian support.

 

[2322]

South Ossetia today has a population of 70,000. A territory of this size cannot be an independent state. You cannot provide the facilities of a nation state for what in most parts of the world would count as a town. Under the old USSR it was an autonomous oblast (district) - it is wrong to translate this as Republic. It cannot have a capital (Chinvali is miniscue) and the jumped up war-lord the Russians have been promoting cannot be regarded as a president.

Liechtenstein does very well as an independent state with one of the highest standards of living in the world with half the people of South Ossetia. Bermuda, also autonomous for all practical purposes, does just as well with about 40,000. There are even smaller Caribbean and South Pacific states.

Of course there are issues in South Ossetia. For all I know there might hypothetically be issues with the Chinese community in Manhattan. But just as New York's Chinatown cannot be an independent state nor can South Ossetia.

Additionally by no means all of the population of South Ossetia are Ossetians. Different figures are being quoted, one as low as 25,000. There are a lot of Georgians in South Ossetia, and a lot of Georgian refugees who would like to go home to South Ossetia.

Geographically South Ossetia is south of the Caucasus, a major natural frontier, and the population distinct from the North Ossetians with whom there has been little contact.

Russia has meddled for years, stirred up unrest, and used this as a pretext for the present invasion not just of South Ossetia but of the whole nation of Georgia. Russia will of course be able to point to instances of bad behaviour by Georgia - Russia has provoked them and catalogued them. A decent Russian state would work with a willing Georgia and international community to find solutions.

No. In 1989 when the Soviet Union began to crumble, South Ossetia tried to reunite with North Ossetia but were blocked by Tiblisi. In 1991, Tiblisi invaded South Ossetia after South Ossetia declared itself part of Russia, reportedly killing 2,000 people in an attempt to quash the reunion movement. The only thing that stopped that was a deal between then-Georgian president Shevardnadze and then-Russian president Yeltsin to allow the region autonomy.

Once again, most South Ossetians, who number 2/3 of the ethnic population of the territory by the latest census, have Russian passports given to them by Russia when the Soviet Union collapsed. Russia is protecting her citizens abroad by refusing to allow the Milosevic-like Saakashvili to make South Ossetia into another Kosovo.

 

[Guy-jin]

Depends who you ask about what is, "Georgia proper." The South Ossetians don't believe their country is Georgia and they live there. Russia doesn't believe South Ossetia is Georgian either. Only Georgia and every other country in the UN thinks South Ossetia is Georgia. Russia is moving to prevent Georgia from being able to retake South Ossetia once Russia withdraws. Saakashvili was warned and warned and warned not to do this. He did it anyway.

You can either see this as Hitler invading the Sudeten or you can see it as NATO invading Kosovo to protect Kosovars from a vindictive Serbia.

You can also see this as Putin proving to the US that he owns his backyard, not the US, and he will take advantage of any weakening of American power to prove it.

I'm fixing this for you with that bolded statement.

I do have to say that while I usually find your opinions on these issues make sense, your position on this one really doesn't. If Russia feels that Ossetians are being ethnically cleansed in Georgia, unilateral invasion is not the proper solution.

And while you may want to frame this in the light of Putin proving that the US doesn't have influence over him, what it really says is that Putin has, at best, the same regard for international laws as George W. Bush. And, if you're like me, that's not something you ought to be defending. Especially considering their democracy is even less functional than ours.

And I'll add that the idea that this is some sort of charity on Russia's part is laughable. That's like saying America's war in Iraq was charity to free the Iraqis from oppression. Is anyone truly that naive these days?