Support Georgia

[Jason]

Liechtenstein does very well as an independent state with one of the highest standards of living in the world with half the people of South Ossetia. Bermuda, also autonomous for all practical purposes, does just as well with about 40,000. There are even smaller Caribbean and South Pacific states

Notwithstanding an independent South Ossetia is unthinkable. It is already a major focus of international crime as the territory has for some years been in a disputed limbo with smuggling a major industry. Neither Georgia nor Russia nor the UK, EU or US can want an indeendent South Ossetia. Either it is part of Georgia - the present legal position - or part of Russia. If the latter the nation state of Georgia is so severely compromised that it is hard to see how it can survive. Geography is cruel.

The solution recognised by international law is that South Ossetia remains a part of Georgia, and special problems are sorted out within that legal framework.

 

[2322]

Doesn't depend on who you ask, but on what factually does constitute "Georgia proper."
The borders are clear, recognized on all maps.
If there is some injustice in the current territorial arrangement, then there are legal ways of attempting to rectify that injustice.
But invasion by an outside force is patently illegal and intolerable.

Rand McNally does not make national boundaries. They merely record them.

What I argue for is the right of self determination for any peoples and particularly those peoples who have no historic or cultural ties to the country they're forced to be part of. South Ossetia became part of Georgia by the stroke of a pen and then by the point of a bayonet. Given how Ossetians are treated by the Georgian majority in the rest of the country, and how they are kept apart from their fellow Ossetians across the border, I see them much like the peoples of the two Koreas or Taiwan and China or much of Africa. The borders were drawn without the input or consideration of the very people whom are most effected by those borders.

Perhaps, as an American who is very aware of how this country was formed, I have a natural sympathy for the disenfranchised peoples of the world who feel they're second class citizens in their own country and yearn for self-determination. Too often the borders of the world have been drawn by greater powers for their own benefit, ignoring the consequences to, "the little people," of what they are doing. We see the consequences of doing this time and again, most recently in Yugoslavia and Iraq; two nations which have multiple groups of people with no right of self-determination but who want it badly enough to stage insurgencies and revolutions.

My great fear in all this is that South Ossetia and Abkhazia will become staging grounds for genocide under the banner of ethnic cleansing as I believe Saakashvili is very capable of it. I tend to think Putin's invasion may have, at least temporarily, stopped that possibility though I also hope that ethnic Georgians living in South Ossetia and Abkhazia will not become victims of the same.

 

[Flashy]

I do love American views on geography.

UK to Georgia is ball-park 2,500 miles. Georgia's sea coast is on the inaccessible Black Sea and the shortest air routes over-fly Russia.

though i tend to agree with your positions on the conflict, your geography is actually down to our level :smile::tongue:

it is a little less than roughly 1900 miles to Georgia from the Southeatern tip of England., and the shortest air routes do not over-fly Russia and there is no problem flying directly there.

Also, RAF #83 Air Group is headquartered in Qatar :smile:


(obviously i am just needling you, since i agree with your POV on this issue)

 

[2322]

I'm fixing this for you with that bolded statement.

I do have to say that while I usually find your opinions on these issues make sense, your position on this one really doesn't. If Russia feels that Ossetians are being ethnically cleansed in Georgia, unilateral invasion is not the proper solution.

And while you may want to frame this in the light of Putin proving that the US doesn't have influence over him, what it really says is that Putin has, at best, the same regard for international laws as George W. Bush. And, if you're like me, that's not something you ought to be defending. Especially considering their democracy is even less functional than ours.

And I'll add that the idea that this is some sort of charity on Russia's part is laughable. That's like saying America's war in Iraq was charity to free the Iraqis from oppression. Is anyone truly that naive these days?

Which goes to what I stated earlier. When Kosovo declared independence, it was guaranteed that Putin would invade South Ossetia. Putin was furious that the Russian vote was blocked in the Security Council by the US and other western powers recognizing Kosovo's independence. Putin felt left out of the circle of power. He knew that Saakashvili was courting the west, getting all kinds of private assurances of support (just as Saddam got from the American ambassador before he invaded Kuwait), hoping that Georgia would come under the NATO umbrella and thus be able to do whatever it wanted within its borders without fear of Russian retribution. Putin, just like every other world leader with any sense, recognizes that the US under its current administration, doesn't give a damn for world law. If the US is going to play dirty then so will Russia; tit for tat. The South Ossetian invasion, and its ferocity, is a direct message to every other regional leader in the area that Russia calls the shots and the west won't come to save them. This isn't about Russia being altruistic to the South Ossetians though, on occasion, great powers do appear helpful as a by product of their policy.

Notwithstanding an independent South Ossetia is unthinkable. It is already a major focus of international crime as the territory has for some years been in a disputed limbo with smuggling a major industry. Neither Georgia nor Russia nor the UK, EU or US can want an indeendent South Ossetia. Either it is part of Georgia - the present legal position - or part of Russia. If the latter the nation state of Georgia is so severely compromised that it is hard to see how it can survive. Geography is cruel.

The solution recognised by international law is that South Ossetia remains a part of Georgia, and special problems are sorted out within that legal framework.

If South Ossetia remains part of Georgia after this, then it either must be a defacto client state of Russia or it will be Kosovo all over again and I don't think the world wants that for anyone. Same goes for Abkhazia. There must be some accord worked out that permits South and North Ossetia to be united, even if unofficially, and for Ossetians to be protected from Georgian forces.

Which also brings me to the other point. George Bush has failed phenomenally on this one. While he's in Beijing having tea with Pooty and patting the backs of American athletes for photo ops, he's acting like the lame duck he is. The State Department saw this coming and, once again, Bush ignored it rather than broker a deal to prevent it. Russia acting in this manner against a western ally like Georgia makes Bush appear impotent and he doesn't seem to notice it or care.

 

[Flashy]

Depends who you ask about what is, "Georgia proper." The South Ossetians don't believe their country is Georgia and they live there. Russia doesn't believe South Ossetia is Georgian either. Only Georgia thinks South Ossetia is Georgia. Russia is moving to prevent Georgia from being able to retake South Ossetia once Russia withdraws. Saakashvili was warned and warned and warned not to do this. He did it anyway.

You can either see this as Hitler invading the Sudeten or you can see it as NATO invading Kosovo to protect Kosovars from a vindictive Serbia.

You can also see this as Putin proving to the US that he owns his backyard, not the US, and he will take advantage of any weakening of American power to prove it.

Regardless of what you think, what i referred to as "Georgia Proper" did not include the disputed regions even though those are still considered Georgian territory.

The Russians have gone far beyond the disputed areas and invaded completely sovereign, non-contested, "Georgia Proper". They have attacked cities and have sent troops into areas that are not autonomous or contested. Their aircraft are currently overflying the whole country. There are ground forces attacking cities inside of Georgia, and they are hitting all types of facilities, including civilian infrastructure inside of Georgia. They are hitting Georgian Oil facilities inside of Georgia on the Caspian Sea...do those facilities offer a threat to the disputed regions?

 

[Jason]

Rand McNally does not make national boundaries. They merely record them.

What I argue for is the right of self determination for any peoples and particularly those peoples who have no historic or cultural ties to the country they're forced to be part of. South Ossetia became part of Georgia by the stroke of a pen and then by the point of a bayonet.

I'm asking for information - has there EVER been a time when South Ossetia was not part of Georgia? Looking at some old maps of Georgia on the net they always seem to include this area within Georgia.

Wouldn't it be better to say that South Ossetia has been part of Georgia since at least the fourth century AD?

I might be wrong, but I think this is a significant point in the present context.

 

[2322]

Regardless of what you think, what i referred to as "Georgia Proper" did not include the disputed regions even though those are still considered Georgian territory.

The Russians have gone far beyond the disputed areas and invaded completely sovereign, non-contested, "Georgia Proper". They have attacked cities and have sent troops into areas that are not autonomous or contested. Their aircraft are currently overflying the whole country. There are ground forces attacking cities inside of Georgia, and they are hitting all types of facilities, including civilian infrastructure inside of Georgia. They are hitting Georgian Oil facilities inside of Georgia on the Caspian Sea...do those facilities offer a threat to the disputed regions?

If they are facilities that the Georgian military could use to strike South Ossetia or Russian military, then yes. If Saddam bombed Missouri to destroy our stealth bombers, we would know why he was striking Missouri even though the bulk of our military forces were in the Persian Gulf at the time war started. Anything, anywhere, that weakens the ability of the adversary to wage war is fair game in war. To paraphrase Patton, "the object of war isn't to die for your country, but to make the other poor sucker die for his." When you ask military leaders how to do something, they will tell you how to do it and they won't care about the casualties the other side sustains. They're out to maximize their war potential while inflicting the most damage with the least casualties to their personnel and materiel. It is not a pretty business and the Russians have never been as media sensitive as we in the west are.

The goal, I believe, is to weaken Georgia to the point that they become so frightened and weakened that they remove their president from office and accept any terms Russia offers.

 

[Guy-jin]

Which goes to what I stated earlier. When Kosovo declared independence, it was guaranteed that Putin would invade South Ossetia. Putin was furious that the Russian vote was blocked in the Security Council by the US and other western powers recognizing Kosovo's independence. Putin felt left out of the circle of power. He knew that Saakashvili was courting the west, getting all kinds of private assurances of support (just as Saddam got from the American ambassador before he invaded Kuwait), hoping that Georgia would come under the NATO umbrella and thus be able to do whatever it wanted within its borders without fear of Russian retribution. Putin, just like every other world leader with any sense, recognizes that the US under its current administration, doesn't give a damn for world law. If the US is going to play dirty then so will Russia; tit for tat. The South Ossetian invasion, and its ferocity, is a direct message to every other regional leader in the area that Russia calls the shots and the west won't come to save them. This isn't about Russia being altruistic to the South Ossetians though, on occasion, great powers do appear helpful as a by product of their policy.

That doesn't justify the action, though. The world isn't a playground. If you were against the Iraq war, I see no reason you should be for Russian invasion of Georgia. And when I say Georgia, I do include South Ossetia.

 

[fgeorgio]

Dont forget...Saakashvili(the Georgian president) is the one who started the war...

 

[D_Jared Padalicki]

I'm not okay with the fact that there is a was and that there are already so many innocent people are killed. But why should we discuss here about what country should help, come on, we can't stop that war. Believe me, I'm definitely not OK with the war or any war, but you must realise that we can't do a thing now. We can support Georgia, but don't we have to support Russian victims too, because they are there too. We don't decide when this war ends, we only can hope now that it ends quickly. When the war is over we can help, and we will.
So people, please don't discuss such things and being mean, it doesn't solve anything!

Ciao

 

[transformer_99]

Dont forget...Saakashvili(the Georgian president) is the one who started the war...

That and Russia is simply taking back what was hers in the first place. About the only times Georgia was able to declare it's independence and briefly maintain it was around the 1917 Revolution and when Russia collapsed in 1991. Otherwise they've flip flopped on who they were really with. Take WW II for example, they fought as both USSR Red Army and as Nazi's.

What I see, this is no different than Abe Lincoln sending troops to take back Southern USA states that seceded from the union in 1861.

The only worry I have is that Bush is no John F. Kennedy.

 

[fgeorgio]

Not really the same as the Georgians are Caucasian people(not in the American sense) and the Russians are Slavs.I think the Georgian president played with fire and unless he leaves Georgia soon,i cant really see him survive the war.(Dont let me get started on JFK,the president who dragged America in to Vietnam and gave them the Bay of Pigs)

 

[Guy-jin]

What I see, this is no different than Abe Lincoln sending troops to take back Southern USA states that seceded from the union in 1861.

It's very, very different.

 

[deleted213967]

Great! Another red-state Georgia...

 

[Industrialsize]

All I know is that the whole "development" of the conflict in Georgia has me worried for the world......

 

[transformer_99]

fgeorgio, all I'm saying is Bush isn't the statesman and negotiator JFK was regarding how the Cuban Missile Crisis was handled. Then again, who knows how Bush or anyone else (except Jimmy Carter) for that matter would've handled it ?

Guy-jin, This is very similar to the American Civil War, more specifically South Carolina & Fort Sumter and subsequent secession from the union. Georgia for the most part has been easily overtaken. The Mongols, Persian Empire and Ottoman Empire have invaded and controlled Georgia. Russia came in and took them in the late 1700's. The next time Georgia would be "independent", 1918, after the 1917 Russian Revolution. That lasted until 1920, Great Britain took them under their wing, but was no match for the Red Army in 1921.

After that, they wouldn't be free until Russia collapsed in 1991. Bottom line, they really aren't much different or far removed from since 1991 than the Sunni and Shiites in Iraq. Different factions cleansing areas of each other.

In that regard, there are big differences between Georgia & Russia and the North & South of the American Civil War. But the reality, Georgia isn't powerful enough and being land locked with Russia, they are part of Russia pure and simple, just as the South was part of the USA (North). It's a case of survival of the fittest and Georgia is no match for Russia. They will lose their freedom & land over invading South Ossetia.

The USA is involved, because Georgia has provided the most troops/backing our cause in Iraq. It's only 2,000 troops, but if we don't help them out, what does it wind up looking like ? Georgia nearer to Russia in that regard will be little more than similar to Israel in the Middle East.

Georgia (country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

 

[B_Nick4444]

You can also see this as Putin proving to the US that he owns his backyard, not the US, and he will take advantage of any weakening of American power to prove it.

This is, I believe, is a major factor in the strategy

 

[Deno]

odd, George, Georgia.

Seemed Putin and George were doing just fine sitting next to each other at the Olympics. Well not aside each other but looked like the couples were next to each other.

 

[SpeedoGuy]

Considering that something like 40% of Europe's energy now originates in Russia, it doesn't seem likely that the EU is going to confront Putin with anything more than strong words. Nor will the US.

 

[Jason]

There must be some accord worked out that permits South and North Ossetia to be united, even if unofficially, and for Ossetians to be protected from Georgian forces.

I don't think anyone - the Ossetians in these two territories, the Georgians or the Russians - want these two areas united. The names are misleading. While there are Ossetian people in both, they have few links or ties and very many differences - they don't particularly like each other. North Ossetia has a significant Russian population, South Ossetia a significant Georgian population.

Neither Ossetia separately or the two combined can function independently. They are tiny. They are dependent on either Georgia or Russia for power, water, health and education, for transport infrastructure - the works. Both have suffered from the weakness of political control by developing crime networks. South Ossetia in particular is a major international crime centre (as is nearby and better known Chechenya). The tiny countries of the world - Leichtenstein has been mentioned - function with good relations with their neighbours and sound government. Kosovo is around 30x the size of South Ossetia (by population), and there are major issues around such a tiny statelet as Kosovo being created.

Georgia has to control South Ossetia. The only possible alternative is Russian control, but this is so damaging to Georgia's security that it would threaten Georgia's existence. A Russian controlled South Ossetia would still have to get water and power from Georgia. It is hard to see how the border would work given that many South Ossetians work in other parts of Georgia, and there are more Ossetians living in parts of Georgia which are not South Ossetia than is South Ossetia.