Taking America Back!

Discussion in 'Politics' started by midlifebear, Sep 1, 2010.

  1. midlifebear

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    OK, here's a can of worms for everyone. I'm interested in knowing specifically what any and all of you folks think needs "taking back" in the United States. What rights and liberties have been wrenched from your control and smothered in the Constitution? What new oppressions are you currently forced to endure?

    It would be nice if you could be concise, offer links and/or examples, and also be civil. Anecdotes that cannot be verified are just that, anecdotes and will be ignored accordingly. I'm seriously interested in what Mr. Average Joe is so worried about. And remember, as a gay man I belong to a sexual minority that has always been marginalized and unable to enjoy quite a few of the civil liberties supposedly guaranteed in the Constitution of the United States and loudly touted in the Bill of Rights.

    Ready, set . . . go! :smile:
     
  2. D_Chocho_Lippz

    D_Chocho_Lippz Account Disabled

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    Simple.

    STEP 1:
    The Federal Government should do nothing except what is explicitly stated in the Constitution under Article 1, Section 8:

    To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

    To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

    To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

    To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

    To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

    To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

    To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

    To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

    To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

    To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

    To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

    To provide and maintain a Navy;

    To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

    To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

    To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

    To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

    To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.​

    This means... no more crazy interpretations of the "general welfare" or crazy explicit/implicit uses of the Commerce Clause. If it is not in this list, then they don't do it... Yes, this means health care and all the other stuff that has been added. It is gone.

    STEP 2:
    Any powers not listed in the Constitution are delegated to the individual states. For example, if Nevada wants to have universal health care, then they can do that. If Illinois wants to tax at 50%, they can do that. If California wants to legalize gay marriage, they can do that.

    A rebalance of state power versus federal power.

    STEP 3:
    Rebalance of power between 3 branches. No legislating from the bench. No sweeping executive orders. No war actions without a declaration of war from Congress. Etc.

    STEP 4:
    Fiscal responsibility. No more fiat currency. No more bailouts. No more fractional banking. No more Federal Reserve.

    STEP 5:
    If you don't like the above, then go through the process of amending the Constitution to allow it to happen, which requires ratification through the states (falls in line with state power with step 2).
     
    #2 D_Chocho_Lippz, Sep 1, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2010
  3. D_Chocho_Lippz

    D_Chocho_Lippz Account Disabled

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    I want to clarify this a bit... I left out the following on Article 1, Section 8,

    The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

    ... for a reason. This is the part that everyone opens up to broad interpretation which I believe has gotten us into a lot of trouble. If you look below the above sentence there is a list. This is the list of specifics for the Powers of Congress.

    To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

    To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

    To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

    To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

    To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

    To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

    To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

    To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;


    To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

    To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

    To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

    To provide and maintain a Navy;

    To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

    To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

    To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

    To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And


    To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

    All the rights and liberties of the people remain intact regardless of skin color, sexuality, or location.
     
  4. midlifebear

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    This is interesting. PLG, do you believe that every item in your list has been abridged and/or purposefully ignored?
     
  5. unabear09

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    Big one here:

    RESTORE HABEAS CORPUS! (or however its spelled)
     
  6. LittleButt

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    I apologize for the long post and I do not mean to attack anyone. I simply wanted to respond to what was posted. The Bear's question really sparked a few thoughts I wanted to share.

    Just to respond to Plug's suggestions:

    1. Taking us back to the strict letter of the law would Balkinze the United States: empowering states to become mini-countries. What the Founding Fathers wanted for our country is of no concern to us. They created a country, not a religion. Any country that cannot adapt to changing circumstances dies. Do a Yahoo search for Articles of Confederation.

    2. The States misuse their authority whenever the rest of the States are looking the other way. See Jim Crow Laws, The Second Klan, and the conditions in the State of South Carolina pre-FDR. The Federal Governent is not the enemy of the States rather it is the gathering of the States. For Texas to get mad at the Federal Government is the same as saying "Hey, I don't like what we Texans are doing over there!".

    3. Legislating from the Bench is a tool Congress and The President let happen in order to pass politically unpopular by necessary agendas. Congress and the President write the laws with loopholes and vague language in order to allow for the Courts to either overturn or interphret their wishes (which is the job of the courts). For instance: Civil Rights issues were addressed in the courts long before Congress ever stepped in. And, by the way, sometimes decades BEFORE the States acted.

    4. Without a paper currency, the bailouts and the Federal Reserve our economy would collapse utterly. As in your local grocery store refusing to accept a dollar bill as payment. Every time the Federal government tries to step away from the economy (Laissez Faire Economics) disasters of Biblical proportions occur. See Jackson, Grant, The Panics of the late 1870s-1890s, and the Great Depression.

    5. For the Federal Government to attempt to operate via popular Democracy would result in what Historians like to call "A Watershed Event". This means that this event is the moment a society collapses. Google Ancient Athens for examples of the government trying to operate by popular acclaim.

    MY TWO CENTS: Here's what I believe:
    a.) "Taking America Back" is not code for taking America back from the Federal Government but rather taking it back from the brown population. I think that White America has just awoken to what the Demographics have been screaming for decades: Whites are no longer the dominate race in the United States. The election of a black man to the White House terrified whites. It's about 10% policies and 90% race. Google rappers in the white house, monkey Obama, Balack Obama, etc etc to illustrate my point.

    b.)America is on a steady decline. Unlike what Glen Beck and Rush scream (and cry) about it takes decades for a society to weaken enough to collapse. For one man (Obama) to be able to do it in 4 years is impossible. I believe we are on a slow and steady decline to British Empire level and have been since the collapse of the auto industry in the late 1970s where the main export of the United States were our jobs. I see perhaps a military defeat (China) within 20 years, followed by an utter loss of confidence in the dollar and an economic collapse shortly afterwards. I see China becoming the U.S. Perhaps then the States will get their chance to go rogue?
     
  7. D_Chocho_Lippz

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    Step 1 is simple. We want limited government. That is the purpose of Article 1, Section 8. They made it that way so that power would come from We The People, and not We the Government. When we start stepping out of this list then we set precedent for the government to step out on other things... The Commerce Clause and the General Welfare Clause are the two most misunderstood things in the Constitution. They use it to curb speech, personal actions and justify raising taxes. And here lately, to take our tax money and give it to people for bailouts and such.

    So yes, by ignoring this step, this section, it gives leeway to start transferring power back to the government.

    Step 2 is also simple. We are called the United States of America, not the Federal Americas. All states are united for certain tasks, like common defense and promotion of trade. That is why the excises and such are mentioned in there. When you have a Republic each group, each state, has an equal say in how things are done. That way people are more equally represented, first by a Representative and then by their Senator.

    So yes, when you ignore the power of the states (or take power from the states), you are essentially taking power from the People and giving it to a small group of people in the Federal government. In other words, it is making a Republic back into a [pseudo] aristocracy (or whatever it may be classed as)

    Step 3 is simply being ignored so that the power, again, can be put into the hands of few and bypass the people. Executive orders pass over the people by passing over Congress. Legislating from the bench creates a bridge between the law makers and law interpreters when there should be a chasm.

    Step 4 is ignored so that the people have no power over their lives. That sounds weird, but if you think about it... the government allows a select group of people (the bankers) to make money out of money. And then on top of that the fiat currency allows the money to be worth whatever whoever says it is worth (i.e. the Federal Reserve). It removes the natural order or things. This is ignored so that our daily lives can be manipulated into thinking that we need to support certain actions. Think... the Federal Reserve/Treasury stepped and said that we HAD to bail out the banks or that the economy was going to crash tomorrow. They passed the bill, and then took a break... then handed out the money later. Then the banks didn't lend it... and we are all still here. It is a high-tech and very intelligent heist.

    "The central bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the Principles and form of our Constitution. I am an Enemy to all banks discounting bills or notes for anything but Coin. If the American People allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the People of all their Property until their Children will wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered." - Thomas Jefferson​
     
  8. D_Chocho_Lippz

    D_Chocho_Lippz Account Disabled

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    Did you read my Step 5?

    The states cannot do whatever they want as you allude. There is such a thing as unalienable rights, which I think the Bill of Rights and other amendments have addressed.

    I can agree with that.

    There is nothing wrong with a paper currency. I never mentioned paper currency. I am against fiat currency that can be manipulated and changed by a group of people who claim to be omnipotent and then later steal the money to "bail out" someone.

    Fuck that, if someone has a bad business practice that drives them into insolvency then that should happen. The good solid businesses will survive and we all will benefit.

    As for the Great Depression even Bernake admits that the Federal Reserve had a role in making it worse!

    I don't want a popular democracy. I want a Republic. Democracies always beget tryanny in the end. Look up Lord Tytler's quote.

    WTF? So some people hate Obama because he is black.

    Guess what, some people hated Bush because he was white.

    Does that mean that we should conclude that we all hate ranchers.

    Illogical.

    Nobody says that Obama is doing it single-handedly. Why are you all of a sudden bringing Obama into the conversation when midlifebear or myself has not mentioned Obama. It seems that you are bringing politics into the conversation of how we can fundamentally fix America.
     
  9. D_Chocho_Lippz

    D_Chocho_Lippz Account Disabled

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    Also, thanks for asking questions and accepting my answers. I used to frequent these here boards but every time I came in as a non-Democrat (I'm not a democrat or a republican) I was flamed out.... so I left and quit posting.
     
  10. BJs4You IL

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    thanks for your posts
     
  11. houtx48

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    People always say they want limited government but when push comes to shove they run to the government for redress of whatever it is that they are concerned about. Limited government's ship has sailed. Next problem.
     
  12. D_Fiona_Farvel

    D_Fiona_Farvel Account Disabled

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    Restoration of privacy rights. Secret, unrestricted government surveillance is a major concern.

    Good to read and consider your posts once again, PIN. :smile:

    Agreed.
     
  13. D_Chocho_Lippz

    D_Chocho_Lippz Account Disabled

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    I for one would LOVE to have a limited government. I don't want a handout or and advantage by law. I don't want my neighbors to get a handout or a advantage by law. I want a level playing field. I want to reap what I put in and I want you to reap what you put in. If someone doesn't put in, then that is not my fault. do what you want to do in your home with your property and I will do the same. Who doesn't agree with this concept?

    The problem is that many Democrats rule with their hearts and Republicans rule with the dollar. In other words, we are currently being rulled by corporatism that is eroding the middle class. Is it possible that the middle class is being eroded so that we truly have a rich vs poor (king versus peasants) again? That is for you to decide with the facts at hand.

    This quote is unverified and attributed to Lord Tytler... but I think it is most fitting...

    A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:
    From bondage to spiritual faith;
    From spiritual faith to great courage;
    From courage to liberty;
    From liberty to abundance;
    From abundance to complacency;
    From complacency to apathy;
    From apathy to dependence;
    From dependence back into bondage​

    I think the answer to this conundrum is to restore not a democracy... but a Republic and a limited government. It can be done, against what you suspect... but it can and has been done. We went from a tyrannical king of england to the most free nation of the world.

    Why can't we do it again?
     
    #13 D_Chocho_Lippz, Sep 1, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2010
  14. D_Chocho_Lippz

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    It is interesting what you say now that I think about it...

    Back in the day people refused government handouts and help. They helped family and neighbors when they could. Even doctors would accept payments from people who were less off - because they had a love for their patients.

    Did you know that After the Civil War the government offered pensions. All the soldier had to do was tell some stories to a scribe and they would get their pension. In these diaries there were not many accounts of religious items or God. Why? Because back then people felt that it was their own responsibility to care for themselves. That it was God's will to take care of them either through family or friends or neighbors. They didn't want a faceless entity to care for them.

    Now, I am not saying that we all need to be Godly... I am just saying that there is plenty of evidence that people used to be HIGHLY skeptical of government. They always argued with government. Hell, even back then people didn't campaign - the people went "we like this guy and we want him to represent us. So, guess what, you are going to run and represent us when you win." Far cry from today where people spend millions on their campaigns! When was the last time you even got to see your Representative? Me, never. There is a very big chasm between politicians and their constituents today. Problem.

    anyways, all this changed after the Great Depression. After the Great Depression the people, even the Godly ministers, were looking for their helping hand. Out with counting out their human neighbors... they wanted to be cared for.

    Welcome to... Government is your Daddy mentality.
     
  15. D_Fiona_Farvel

    D_Fiona_Farvel Account Disabled

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    Although, at heart I lean Libertarian, I disagree. There is a beneficial effect of welfare state social policy on the health of communities and the nation - everything from criminalization to infant mortality improves with the addition of assistance for those who need it.

    There should definitely be limits, regulations, and oversight to any "handout", however, I do not see community-based services as viable in a population of this size. Current policy uses delay and denial tactics that already prevent many from accessing services and private entities are not meeting the needs of the residuum(?).

    While it is possible the United States could return to the model you prefer, PIN, I find it highly unlikely and think we will have to craft a new model to approach social policy and welfare state needs few foresaw.
     
  16. maxcok

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    Would you then eliminate the Social Security and Medicare programs since they're not explicitly stated in the Constitution under Article 1, Section 8 ? Would they fall within your rubric of "crazy interpretations of the general welfare"? How about the Internal Revenue Service, Interstate Highway System, Federal Aviation Administration, Food and Drug Administration, etc.?

     
  17. D_Chocho_Lippz

    D_Chocho_Lippz Account Disabled

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    There is no problem with welfare of people. However, in my opinion, a problem with a welfare program ran at a federal level. Charity and welfare by definition should be given from the heart and the individual for it to capture it's true reason - to care for our neighbors. If you have a faceless entity (the government) then I think we lose some of our human empathy and also our responsibility as a neighbor. (Why help the people who are less fortunate when you are paying someone else to do it?)

    The number one argument against my position is that the population is too big for anyone but the government to handle it's problems. I think this is a cop-out. To me this is a blatant disregard of the power of an individual. If it is We The People who give power to the government then how is it that We the People somehow have less power to solve problems than the government?

    I personally don't want to be a part of the SS/Medicare programs. I think in a free country with free people such programs should be voluntary. Because the government has made them mandatory-but-not-mandatory (you don't have to have a SSN to work or live in the USA... and if you don't believe me, go read the SSA webpage.) we are forced into some sort of involuntary-servitue or maybe involuntary-thievery.

    Are you asking what I would do if I had the power to do so? Would I just end the SS and Medicare? No. People have paid into that program so they should be able to draw off of that. You cannot just leave people out in the cold. However, you can allow people to opt out of the program. If they opt out, they will never be helped when they retire... or if they need disability pay or whatever else falls under the SS payments taken from your paycheck. If you want to continue to have ~25% taken out for the program that is scheduled to be bankrupt in a few decades then that is your prerogative. But otherwise, free people should choose.

    I don't understand the confusion of my post though. If it is not listed in the POWERS OF CONGRESS in that list under Article 1, Section 8, explicitly... why are we doing it? You are asking about individual offices/administrations.... if they are doing a job under those enumerated powers, then they can stay. If they are doing something else... then they go.

    For example:
    Internal Revenue Service - Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises (I know this is in the header, but there are other sections of the Constitution which specifically talk about how to tax)
    Interstate Highway System - To establish Post Offices and Post Roads
    Federal Aviation Administration - I am not 100% what they do... but this may go under To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces; (maybe even postal roads since some post goes through the air now)
    Food and Drug Administration - this is a manipulation of the general welfare clause in my opinion. We don't need someone allowing harmful items (i.e. aspartame) and disallowing others. Do you think it falls under one of the enumerated powers?​

    Just remember, I don't have all the answers (government is too big to have one person know what everyone is doing)... all I know is that government is too bloated and that much of government is operating outside of the Constitution.
     
  18. Bbucko

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    Not for nothing, but when Vermont passed the first Civil Union law, the antagonists used the identical verbiage: word for word.

    Since most tourists didn't understand WTF they meant with the signs and billboards, the all brought home jugs of maple syrup: true story. Google it.

    It's code, dahlings...code. Learn it.
     
  19. D_Chocho_Lippz

    D_Chocho_Lippz Account Disabled

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    Same verbiage for?
     
  20. Dave NoCal

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    LittleButt wrote:
    MY TWO CENTS: Here's what I believe:
    a.) "Taking America Back" is not code for taking America back from the Federal Government but rather taking it back from the brown population. I think that White America has just awoken to what the Demographics have been screaming for decades: Whites are no longer the dominate race in the United States. The election of a black man to the White House terrified whites. It's about 10% policies and 90% race. Google rappers in the white house, monkey Obama, Balack Obama, etc etc to illustrate my point.
    I concur. Having a non-white president is driving a lot of people batshit crazy. The Mosque bullshit, the Obama is a Muslim bullshit, the birthers' bullshit, the focusing on Latin American people as dangerous, privileged people yearning for a "level playing field," ("George Bush was born on third base and thinks he hit a triple." Molly Ivans)etc.. is mostly about anxiety that people with brown skin are gradually gaining a place at the table and will continue to do so based on simple demographics.
    Dave
     
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